Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

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cnorman18

Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #1

Post by cnorman18 »

This is a reedited version of one of my first posts on this forum, from five years ago. I think it bears repeating.

A word before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity; nor is this post an invitation to debate. This post is intended to EXPLAIN something that very many non-Jews, including many Christians but also including many others, do not, apparently, understand.

Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how, in the words of our tradition, God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say that He did not. Only in the matter of literally worshiping idols as divine beings do we pronounce judgment, and that is rather rare in the modern world.

The battle has never been between Christians and Jews, anyway. We are on the same side. On the other side are today's idol-worshippers -- those who worship things; money, power, fame, gratification, status. May we both always remember that.

This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.

This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, accept Jesus as our Messiah.

That some few have, and do, does not matter. Peace to them, but there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important of those reasons. If you do not agree with them, that is your right, but these matters are not, for Jews, open to debate or argument.

To begin, then:

Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for, quite literally, thousands of years, and it has not changed.

The issue was never that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill," as many seem to think; most of the “prophecies� which it is claimed that Jesus fulfilled were never considered “prophecies� by Jews in the first place (the very term has a different meaning in the Jewish religion, which is only occasionally related to “foretelling the future�). The Messiah was never to be identified by “prophecy�; he was to be identified by the PERFORMANCE of certain concrete, real-world actions. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."

Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.

Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.

Other than that, St. Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes: (1) The Messiah was to be a military and/or a political leader, an actual, rightful King who would restore the line of David to the throne of Israel and reign in Jerusalem as the actual, literal earthly monarch of the Jewish nation. (2) He would restore the political independence of the land of Israel and free it from foreign rule. (3) Most importantly, he would institute a reign of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth -- in THIS world and THIS life; not in a symbolic or “spiritual� way, but in literal, present human history. This last is, as I say, the most important task of all; the Messiah would institute the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it was named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were, and remain, one.

It seems rather clear that none of these occurred, and most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah. The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!" The Messiah has not come.

Another issue is that Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, and power and authority far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah. These claims were and are alien to Judaism, and in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view. It was even claimed that Jesus was God incarnate, that a human being was, in fact and truth, God Almighty Himself.

It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing. He is Alone. He is One.

It would be easier for Jews to begin chowing down on ham-and-Swiss sandwiches on Yom Kippur than to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God. The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was. There is no hint of such a thing in any Jewish tradition; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable. (The one -- count ‘em, ONE -- verse from Scripture that is commonly given as proof that this notion DID have a part in Jewish tradition is, without apology, a gross misreading and mistranslation of the passage in question; and it is also unique. The idea that such a radical departure from the ancient tenets of the Jewish religion would not be known and even heavily emphasized throughout Jewish teachings over the centuries is more than a little ludicrous.)

Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one -- consider Zeus and Hercules -- and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, again, unthinkable:

Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.

All sins.

Now this is more difficult, because this is not widely known: Jews do not believe that God Himself has that power. God can forgive sins against Himself--ritual offenses, broken vows, and so on--but no more; a sin against another human must be forgiven by that person, or not at all. (This is why there can be no forgiveness for murder. The only one with the power to forgive is dead. This is also why the Jews of today cannot "forgive" the Holocaust. You must ask the six million for that forgiveness; we have no right to give it.)

By claiming this power, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God, but in fact greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes when they heard him speak.

And again, as if all this were not enough -- it was claimed that Jesus took on a role that had never been contemplated by any Jew from Abraham onward, a role that was not necessary and was, again, alien to the whole of Jewish teachings and traditions from the beginning to the present day -- the role of “Savior.� it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in it.

This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.

First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins in the first place. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," nor that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist (or redirect) the second to the best of our ability.

Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed. Sins are forgiven through prayer, repentance, and “deeds of lovingkindness.� No blood is necessary.

Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.

Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.

A concrete example, put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.

Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it isn't mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it -- and there is no belief in an eternal fiery Hell at all, anywhere in all of Jewish history or tradition. The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life in THIS world. The next, we leave to God. “Salvation,� in the Christian sense of “going to Heaven,� is a non-issue for Jews. It is not even a peripheral interest, let alone a central principle.

As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, as well as (in part) common literature, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so profoundly different that they really do constitute two entirely separate religions. That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge in the real world -- which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone.

One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right.

We have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business; for all any Jew knows, those beliefs are true and correct for Christians and God will honor them. Jesus may very well be YOUR Messiah, even though he is not ours. That is not for us to say.

But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held. As I say; this matter is not open to debate. This determination was made by my people two thousand years ago, and it is reaffirmed in every generation.

Thank you for reading. May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.

I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."

In that spirit, I'll also offer this: I have said for many years that, when (if) the Messiah finally comes, the Jews will look up and say, “You’re here!� the Christians will look up and say, “You’re back!� -- and then we’ll all hug each other and laugh about it.

Peace to all.

Charles

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Post #81

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Dario wrote: Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.
This from the man who pontificated ...
Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that
So the preacher who does not know much about Judaism will instruct us on what our early Rabbis believed and, thereby, what is obvious. This is ludicrous.

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Post #82

Post by ndf8th »

Jayhawker Soule you knowing much more about Jews
than what I do. This notion that some versions are tradition
and not religion.

I got surprised that where I live our Synagog did not know
a single Reconstructivist Jew that I could contact.
They had Orthodox and Conservatives but not the group
I got interested in after reading about Mordecai Kaplan.

What is the Jew thoughts about these many groups.

I know that some Christians insist that other Christians
are atheist but if you ask an atheist they would say all
these Christians are clearly religions.

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Post #83

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

ndf8th wrote: I got surprised that where I live our Synagog did not know
a single Reconstructivist Jew that I could contact.
They had Orthodox and Conservatives but not the group
I got interested in after reading about Mordecai Kaplan.

What is the Jew thoughts about these many groups.
I would deem them to be Jewish. By the way, I very much appreciate Kaplan.

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Post #84

Post by ndf8th »

Much appreciated you took time to answer.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #85

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

cnorman18 wrote: …Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one -- consider Zeus and Hercules -- and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, again, unthinkable.
It was not Paul but Matthew who introduced the idea of Jesus being literally fathered by God in lieu of a human father. Paul does call Jesus the Son of God and appears to mean something beyond simply a very righteous person but offers no details. Being a literal Son of God by a (virginal) human woman is not made explicit until Matthew.

Moreover Matthew was speaking to his community of observant Jews who were also followers of the still diverse Jesus movement, not to Greeks. Matthew’s Gospel is all about establishing the Jesus movement as the true inheritor of Judaic tradition in a post-Temple world. It is Matthew’s desire to safeguard his community against the encroachments of the new rabbinic Judaism that is looking to do exactly the same thing. (Fully observant Jewish followers of Jesus who also accept Pauline theology seem to have vanished after the time of Matthew. Yet Matthew’s Gospel is one of the pillars of Christianity. Oh the ironies of history.)

Matthew seems to have been inspired by the already established Pauline custom of calling Jesus the Son of God combined with Philo’s “The Cherubim� which does in fact put forth the notion that God can and has caused women to become pregnant apparently without human agency. And Philo makes much of the idea of God consorting only with virgins, somewhat contradictorily in light of the examples he gives, all already married women. But while those children are special (e.g., Isaac) they are not divine, whereas Paul’s Jesus already has more than human attributes.

Matthew has a penchant for making things literal (with Philo one is never quite sure) and he does so with a vengeance here. Another good example of Matthew over-literalizing is when he has Jesus ride into Jerusalem astride two animals because Zechariah uses poetic repetition in the passage Matthew quotes. This is to make sure that everyone realizes this is a ‘fulfillment’ of a prophecy. Riding on one donkey is commonplace. Riding on two donkeys is memorable. And look! There it is in the scriptures!
cnorman18 wrote:…St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.
Paul never really said Jews need to fulfill all of the Law to be truly righteous. His interest is to abandon various ritual aspects of the Law (e.g., circumcision, dietary rules) to allow gentiles to become Jesus followers without first converting to Judaism. (OUCH!!! Just put some ice on it and it will be fine.)

The “impossible to fulfill all the Law so faith in Jesus is the only answer� school of thought is a misinterpretation. When Paul talks about “works� being useless for salvation he is talking about “works of the Law�, that is, Jewish ritual obligations, as is plain to see if one reads in context rather than quote mining. Matthew – an observant Jew – has Jesus say that none of the Law will ever pass away. But even he (and Mark and Luke in their versions) have Jesus stress the action commandments (do not murder, do not steal etc.) as the key to eternal life. And in none of those versions does Jesus say a word about faith. Jesus even denies being holy.
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #86

Post by Raimi Stranger »

[Replying to post 1 by cnorman18]
cnorman18 wrote: This is a reedited version of one of my first posts on this forum, from five years ago. I think it bears repeating.

A word before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity; nor is this post an invitation to debate.
this is actually a debate forum, that is the rule here and stated clearly

and it is easily proven from scriptures accepted by BOTH Jews and Christians, that neither Judaism nor Christianity is of Jesus Christ... so you are mistaken at the onset and need reproof to scripture of God ...

hence the debate , for sake of the Truth revealed by prophets, saints, and Jesus the Christ of Israel alike , with ONE voice... of God, not of religion of men's tradition:-

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Jesus and all his early disciples were Jews but corrected the Judaist hierarchy to the Truth of the holy spirit of God
This post is intended to EXPLAIN something that very many non-Jews, including many Christians but also including many others, do not, apparently, understand.

Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how, in the words of our tradition, God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say that He did not. Only in the matter of literally worshiping idols as divine beings do we pronounce judgment, and that is rather rare in the modern world.
gladly for your false analysis, it does not even correspond with the Torah and the Prophets, so is easily shown false

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

these are the majority of Israel but clearly are not Jews [house of Judah] and never did accept Judaism... this is the house of Israel then, the lost sheep who ceased to be a people, but whom Jeremiah points out are FORGIVEN -Jer 31:30-34 in the new covenant stated to be with BOTH houses, both nations , not just the Jews...

now Jesus was not sent to the Jews despite that he used Jews as his first disciples, because the Jews as a whole are not persuaded of Jesus as the Messiah of Israel until the lost nation's descendants , the lost sheep are convinced [albeit partly by some Jews]

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
The battle has never been between Christians and Jews, anyway. We are on the same side. On the other side are today's idol-worshippers -- those who worship things; money, power, fame, gratification, status. May we both always remember that.
sadly God and Jesus are on the other side though, as scripture reveals in both 'OT' and 'NT' with ONE voice of God ... the House of Israel are STILL idol-worshippers until reached by saints roaming the world looking for them, Moses states this that they continue idol-worship after being scattered. yet Jeremiah states that they [their children] are accepted by God despite the rejection before [of their parents]
this post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.
ironically the 'God' atheists reject is the god of mass religions of sinners whom God also rejects for disobedience .... 'atheists' are often forced to believe in Love by their own spirit, which is belief in God even if they refuse that naming convention ...

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
...
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, accept Jesus as our Messiah.

this indeed is of interest and relevance to this world and worthy of debate here...
That some few have, and do, does not matter. Peace to them,
again , there is no peace in this earth, but division of men into saints and sinners and the sinners persecutes the saints even to death as God's way of proving the Love of saints ... trying to save one's life one will lose it, losing one;s life for Love of all one will gain endless existence of the spirit free from manifesting except in service of God to help save sinners from Satan in mass religions of all creeds ... God showed creeds fail mankind in Israel's failure to keep the old covenant detailed in the law and the Prophets , so there is the new covenant given by Jeremiah to Israel [only to Israel]
but there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important of those reasons. If you do not agree with them, that is your right, but these matters are not, for Jews, open to debate or argument.
God states that it is for all men to humble themselves before God's Truth f Love eventually... and not for you to speak for all Jews in their stead, indeed Jews are infamous for disagreeing ... be content to debate on your own beliefs and not speak for others... yet the scripture acknowledges that many Jews will not accept Jesus even at this 'eleventh hour' before the final anntichrist [whom most Jews will accept as their Messiah] and then Jesus' return at his death only three and a half years after becoming ruler of the whole earth and its religions ...
To begin, then:

Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for, quite literally, thousands of years, and it has not changed.
the tradition of men goes beyond what is written in the Law and the Prophets... Jesus need not be king accepted by all men in THIS earth to be the Messiah, just because some sinners imagine he should

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world
The issue was never that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill," as many seem to think; most of the “prophecies� which it is claimed that Jesus fulfilled were never considered “prophecies� by Jews in the first place (the very term has a different meaning in the Jewish religion, which is only occasionally related to “foretelling the future�). The Messiah was never to be identified by “prophecy�; he was to be identified by the PERFORMANCE of certain concrete, real-world actions. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."

Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.
the mistake of 'mainline Judaism' is to not realise WHEN these things will be done in God's written Plan of Love for all mankind

the saddest consequence of that is that Judaism will accept the final antichrist as he appears to fulfil doing them all... until God has him killed -Ezek 28
Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.
red herriing my friend, you are supposed to be saying what he did not fulfil not what he did, and mistakes from over zeal of his disciples before spirit baptism are not his responsibility
Other than that, St. Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes: (1) The Messiah was to be a military and/or a political leader, an actual, rightful King who would restore the line of David to the throne of Israel and reign in Jerusalem as the actual, literal earthly monarch of the Jewish nation.
again Jews say this but the scripture does NOT ... rather Jude 1:14 addresses Enoch's witness that only tens of thousands of saints follow the Messiah in THIS earth
(2) He would restore the political independence of the land of Israel and free it from foreign rule.
again not in this earth , there is no promise of God that it happens here, quite the contrary...
(3) Most importantly, he would institute a reign of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth -- in THIS world and THIS life; not in a symbolic or “spiritual� way, but in literal, present human history. This last is, as I say, the most important task of all; the Messiah would institute the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it was named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were, and remain, one.
again, the final Antichrist will offer this in THIS earth and be accepted as God and Christ [Messiah] , but it is Satan as a man [2Thess2, Rev 13:3-4] ruling the whole earth until his death only three and a half years after coming to power [even Daniel pointed this out] ... God has NEVER said that the final rest is in this earth, but rather that it is in the new earth , but indeed it must be on an earth because no-one can be redeemed to spirit free of physical life until they Love, stop sinning, in life on either this earth or the next , so why ignore Isaiah ? :-

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind...

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
It seems rather clear that none of these occurred, and most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah. The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!" The Messiah has not come.
but one would have to ignore much scripture to apply such an absurd test... and indeed we have God's witness that most men will worship the final antichrist as God ... ruling this earth, but by FEAR and killing the saints as 'heretics'. not by Love ... even sinners are not fooled for long , his reign fooling most Jews with most men is but three and a half years before his death for BLASPHEMY 2Thess 2:4, Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14
Another issue is that Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, and power and authority far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah. These claims were and are alien to Judaism, and in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view. It was even claimed that Jesus was God incarnate, that a human being was, in fact and truth, God Almighty Himself.


Again, you confuse the fake image of Jesus of man-made apostate 'Chistianity' of sinners worldwide [who will accept the antichrist as God too] with the real 'Jesus' [whose name patently was not 'Jesus' , that is only am abysmally poor transliteration of a transliteration]
It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing. He is Alone. He is One.
again Jesus agrees but modern apostate Christianity of Satamn's sinners does not... Jesus warned us of this apostasy of both Christianity and Judaism, all creedal religion unites under Satan the Antichrist [one in place of Christ] ... you are confusing Christianity of sinners with the opposing word of God's Christ of Israel... anointed king of Israel in this earth in the only true gospel according to Jesus :-

Mark 14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.
It would be easier for Jews to begin chowing down on ham-and-Swiss sandwiches on Yom Kippur than to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God.
that Jews refuse their own prophet Jer 31:30-34 and unconditional forgiveness of their new covenant is their own affair, but the old covenant saved very few because almost all men did not keep it all always... the new covenant is with BOTH houses of Israel, not just Jews ... potentially all Israel is chosen under God's promises but few Jews keep the old covenant today either ... and most ignore that there is a new covenant despite that it was given to Israel long before Jesus came ...

but again you confuse the obscene claims of mainline Christian sinners with the word of God in scripture and by opposing them quite rightly you ignore that most Jews fail to accept ALL their scripture and do what God commands ... Judaism too is as apostate fro God;s scripture as Christianity ... and ndeed it is Jesus who warned and prophesied that it must be so, and explained why -Rev 13, 2Thess 2, Ezek 28, Isaiah 14
The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was. There is no hint of such a thing in any Jewish tradition; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable. (The one -- count ‘em, ONE -- verse from Scripture that is commonly given as proof that this notion DID have a part in Jewish tradition is, without apology, a gross misreading and mistranslation of the passage in question; and it is also unique. The idea that such a radical departure from the ancient tenets of the Jewish religion would not be known and even heavily emphasized throughout Jewish teachings over the centuries is more than a little ludicrous.)
Jesus simply said that he showed men Love [obedience to God, as the opposite of all sin, breaking God's Law of Love]

that his Love showed men what God is in THE ONLY WAY ONE CAN SEE God ... the reason is that if one stops sinning to Love then God will teach one all Truth , so one will know God in spirit [not just inadequare words of this world]

to twist that into saying it is blasphemy to be righteous is simply false to scripture... but common enough in religion of men's traditions...
Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one -- consider Zeus and Hercules -- and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, again, unthinkable:
the term 'sons of God' is an allegory used in the Prophets as well [e.g, Gen 6, Job 1] and does not imply all that Christianity turned it into , but neither is it without meaning ...

Jesus' messiahship. does NOT depend upon Christianity and he never said he would rule until the new earth , NOT this earth... so all you have said does not disprove any of the claims of scripture of God that he is the Messiah, and indeed he explains why religious traditions in creeds are ALL FALSE as we can verify by checking against the whole scriture accepted by either Jews or Christians as a whole [but saints are taught by God, not men, not scripture]

Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.

All sins.

Now this is more difficult, because this is not widely known: Jews do not believe that God Himself has that power. God can forgive sins against Himself--ritual offenses, broken vows, and so on--but no more; a sin against another human must be forgiven by that person, or not at all. (This is why there can be no forgiveness for murder. The only one with the power to forgive is dead. This is also why the Jews of today cannot "forgive" the Holocaust. You must ask the six million for that forgiveness; we have no right to give it.)
Again a misquote because you are assuming Christian sinners report the Truth of Jesus , but even the scripture states that they CANNOT

and all are freed of sins in death Romans 6:7 , so the forgiveness of sins under the new covenant wih Israel is ONLY the forgiveness of Jews and the lost Huse of Israel's children to be the few kings and priests of the kingdom of Chris in the new earth... and only because God requires tens of thousands of saints as Enoch said ,[Jude 1:12] , to be king-priests ruling under Jesus as king of kings and high priest in the new earth righteous kingdom come

so read the new covenant -Jer 31:30-34, the two nations of Israel, or rather their living descendants were/are forgiven for sake of creating the kingdom run by saints proving their Love in life, ceasing from sin...

and God is not the god of the dead, but of the living, the spirit of all men, so God can say who is forgiven on behalf of all ... for the new earth kingdom simply grows to engulf all men in Love, the law of God , albeit some die a second death before death is denied ... Isaiah pointed this out, and God is not bound in time as men are, God knows all will forgive in the end and that teh salvation of all depends upon that forgiveness... so again , it is tradition that is prophesied to be false and indeed shows itself false even to scripture , but more importantly to the spirit which is God...

By claiming this power, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God, but in fact greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes when they heard him speak.
Jesus stated that he is one with God [through his Love] , so your claim is misunderstanding and so false ...
And again, as if all this were not enough -- it was claimed that Jesus took on a role that had never been contemplated by any Jew from Abraham onward, a role that was not necessary and was, again, alien to the whole of Jewish teachings and traditions from the beginning to the present day -- the role of “Savior.� it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in it.
again you are arguing against Christianity, not what the scripture reveals about Jesus ... which is why you make the mistakes over and over... Jesus saves everyone only through the creation of the kingdom in the new earth using the few saints of this earth as its king-priests to keep the new earth righteous to Love, no sin allowed at all under pain of a second death to remove sin yet again... it is this kingdom of Love which grows to engulf all men in the new earth ,not the kingdom of the antichrist of amalgamated religious traditions of sinners in this earth.... sinners are of no use to God until they choose freely to try Love and see it is a better way, but it is the kingdom which persuades most men to try Love -Rev 7:9-10 Jesus never offered moe than teh few who obey him and Love any salvation in this earth...
This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.
all resolvable by their own scripture, but most Jews yet prefer tradition of sinners against scripture to the words of their own scripture ...
First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins in the first place. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," nor that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist (or redirect) the second to the best of our ability.
sin is not Love, but is addictive , so men do need to be saved once they get hooked... but 'original sin' is a lie invented by Christian sinners and obviously Adam was innocent until AFTER eating the fruit to know right from wrong , the so-called original sin was no sin at all, Adam is innocent of Christian sinners accusations... but even if Adam sinned, the son is NOT responsible for the sins of his father , sin is not handed down that way, but by fathers teaching sons to sin themselves... a man is responsible only for his own sins...

Adam brought sin into the word by learning good fromm evil, ceasing to be innocent, and that is now inbuilt into mankind in conscience , men know wjhen we sin, so are not innocent any more...

Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.
again you should not try to speak for others at all... but Ezekiel revaealed the Truth of God which you likely might claim to accept, contrary to what you say here - Ezekiel 18:20-24 ... I suspect your own prophet might convince you that your tradition is false to God ... and indeed Paul is a Jew and well versed in scripture ...
Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed. Sins are forgiven through prayer, repentance, and “deeds of lovingkindness.� No blood is necessary.


again you are arguing against Christianity ...the scripture makes it clear that God has the right to forgive whomsoever He will , on behalf of all men because man is in essence spirit which is of God... only the self denies the spirit of Love in a man and that self is transient, the spirit is not... Jesus' death [blood] was necessary and prefigured in your scriptures of blood sacrifice under the old covenant ...

but this is why Jess said he had to die :-

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

that is HOW the FEW are saved to perfect Love now, no more sin, s they are PROVEN worthy in THIS life to be kings and priests in the next life over billions saved later -Rev 7:9-10 who are ALL destroyed with this earth and heavens Matt 7:13 , all raised from 'hell' and death -Rev 20:13... so there is no 'eternal hell' n scripture, Jesus reveals OTHERWISE that all are freed from SLEEP in death...

again Christianity IS apostate, no need to listen to sinners' tales in churches, but every reason NOT to reject Jesus because of what sinners teach, all who are of God are aught by God, not by sinners of creedal religion ...

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.
you have failed to understand what the sacrifice of Jesus' life is for... to bring the Truth from God DIRECT to the few who will build and run the kingdom of God , the government of God that will grow to engulf all men in the new earth ...

that is why the salvation of the few of BOTH houses of Israel is important, why Jesus had to unjustly sacrifice his life .... for sake of all, but INDIRECTLY for sake of all , knowing that most men will not TRY Love until the kingdom PROVES it works
Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.

A concrete example, put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.
again that is exactly what the NT says too , 'faith' without works is empty. dead... one does not Love unless one does Love, not just says one Loves.... en can lie and so most do, even to themselves, even about their Love... the scripture is clear and indeed shows Christianity of sinners has false doctrines , yet again... but thyen one should have expected that ...
Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it isn't mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it -- and there is no belief in an eternal fiery Hell at all, anywhere in all of Jewish history or tradition. The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life in THIS world. The next, we leave to God. “Salvation,� in the Christian sense of “going to Heaven,� is a non-issue for Jews. It is not even a peripheral interest, let alone a central principle.
in the first place 'heavens' is always plural in scripture , there is no 'heaven' ... and Jesus described death as a sleep, not a fiery 'hell' , not even a place at all... just a state of the dead ALL awaiting resurrection Rev 20:13 ... so no possibility of an 'eternal hell' , that is a simple mistranslation [see a literal translation for instance] ... so to attach that mistake of unbaptised Christian sinners to Christ is obviously false...albeit many mistake religion for God's Truth, even Jews who really should know better from scripture ....

and indeed the perfected Love of saints of Israel's TWO nations is all that God requires of this life, this earth, before it is destroyed with its HEAVENS ... and the new earth ans its heavens, but Paul [the Jew] describes the THIRD heavens as the paradise of God, the 'garden of Eden' with the tree of life [immortality of the spirit, God] ... so indeed some Jews know about the third heavens and indeed the second heavens of the kingdom of Love come to the new earth through the work of the messaiah bringing saints to perfect Love in THIS life by menas of the Truth of God in spirit baptism... bought by his death...which PROVED his Love of all , his right to be king of Israel, king of kings, Lord of all men once men see love is better tan sin for everyone BECAUSE of the kingdom come in the new earth...

and final rest is not just the 'sabbath' of loving peace in the new earth once all men accept Jesus and God, bu translation to spirit once Love is perfected ... eventually by all men as God si Love and God of all men, not just the few wh are first , of Israel

again the Prophets declare it, Israel is saved first only to save the gentiles afterward... and salvation is to the spirit , free of the earth except in service to God as kings and priests of Jesus'' kingdom inn the new earth, the royal priesthood of Melchizedek is eventually the whole of Israel although only a remnant are first , these are not all Levites ... the Messiah is of Judah and high priest ,but not a Levite ... an immortal priesthood with access to the third heavens... and the story begins in Genesis my friend...

the explanation comes to Jews from the House of Israel they mostly still despise on religious grounds... but Moses said it would, as have other prophets of God...
As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, as well as (in part) common literature, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so profoundly different that they really do constitute two entirely separate religions. That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge in the real world -- which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone.
it is clearly nonsense to pretend that God's word is not ONE whole Truth ... and a bizarre idea that God's Truth cannot resolve the pompous disagreements of prideful sinners of religion ... God is ONE god , know this O Israel... but also know that the god of THIS earth for almost all men will be a false god, Satan as a man, accepted as the Messiah even by many Jews who reject 'Jesus' for the false views of Chrstian sinners which mask the Truth of God's scripture from billions...

thus almost all Christians are missing the beginning of the story of scripture and amongst all Jews are missing the ending...

by refusing to discuss it few indeed will come to try Jesus' solution of ceasing sn s God can Hmself teach all truth without any man , by spirit ...

thus agreeing to differ is nonsense completely against the spirit of debate of this site and only keeps both religious traditions FALSE to scripture...

the saints are referring to the Law and the Prophets when they say scripture is given FOR REPROOF of faith :-

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

and as I have explained briefly there is n point whatever in rejecting Jesus because Christianity is utterly apostate, unholy , since Jesus sad it MUST be so ... he Antichrist will come and unite religion in LIES , so Jesus warned bout that too... bt one will not understand in full until taking up Jesus' offer of the Truth from God, something one cannot doubt... unlike religion of sinners, whether Jews, House of Israel, or gentiles, a sinner is not a saint, and saints do not sin any more against God and men
One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right.
God has that right in the name of everyone... and imparts it to the few saints of Israel because their trial of Love is to persuade others to try Love instead of sin so God can teach the Truth.... but note that it is not men who teah nay more than is necessary to get men to stop sinning and try Love instead, so God can teach without killing a man...

so indeed God shows that you are mistaken my friend... indeed everyne's salvation depends upon your being mistaken...
We have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business; for all any Jew knows, those beliefs are true and correct for Christians and God will honor them. Jesus may very well be YOUR Messiah, even though he is not ours. That is not for us to say.


yet you deny Jesus on false evidence of religious lies of Christians, lies according to their scriptures, just as most Jewish traditions are shown false by their own scriptures ... God's word is ONE Truth for all eventually and it is discernible if one stops disobeying Him by sinning against Him and fellow man... that is something one indeed does alone , judging one's own sin and ceasing, but one will not even try if one has faith in creeds instead of faih in God doing all the teaching as stated in the new covenant -Jer 31:30-34 GIVEN TO ISRAEL, no-one else ...
But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held. As I say; this matter is not open to debate. This determination was made by my people two thousand years ago, and it is reaffirmed in every generation.
sadly only a small remnant ever followed God in Israel, so the decision of the many is actually guarannteed to be false by the scripture you likely say you believe

and Jesus states that most of the saints are not Jews [only about one in seven] , so indeed it is the Jews who need as much as anyone to learn the Truth directly from God by their new covenant ... it is quite incomprehensible to me that Jews do not accept their own prophets of God - Jer 31:30-34
Thank you for reading. May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.
but clearly yo have great need of debate if you are to join the remnant few and stop sinning so God , not tradition, can reveal all Truth to you
I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."
there is often deep truth behind the deluding half-truths of man-made traditions in religion.... that is no excuse for accepting half-truths when God has offered all Truth from Himself, personally, simply for obeying Him instead of sinning, purifying oneself for sacrifice of one's false pride in ones beliefs from men, sinners ...
In that spirit, I'll also offer this: I have said for many years that, when (if) the Messiah finally comes, the Jews will look up and say, “You’re here!� the Christians will look up and say, “You’re back!� -- and then we’ll all hug each other and laugh about it.
As Jesus warned, the final antichrist comes first and unites all men except the remnant few of Israel, the saints of God .... so you may be right indeed except that the Messiah men choose will be Satan as a man, Jesus warned us all, few will listen...
Peace to all.

Charles
peace is to all in the new earth, in this earth the saints must be separated from all sin, all sinners , so that the kingdom is not run by any sinner...

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

the antichrist will offer peace, the NWO even, and almost all men will fall for it....
yet the salvation of all to spirit depends on the remnant few of Israel who do not...

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #87

Post by Danmark »

[Replying to post 85 by Raimi Stranger]

So essentially your position in reviving this year old thread is that Jews should not decide what Jews believe; rather that should be determined by Christians and Christian books?

Perhaps the next step will be for Buddhists to define your 'Christian' beliefs on the basis of Zen koans.

cnorman18

Post #88

Post by cnorman18 »

Don’t come around here much any more -- I look in, but haven’t seen anything going on that I find at all interesting -- but I was tipped off to this post. Not much to say on this -- it’s nothing new either, but since I was invited, I thought I’d offer a short response and a correction or two.
Raimi Stranger wrote: [Replying to post 1 by cnorman18]
cnorman18 wrote: This is a reedited version of one of my first posts on this forum, from five years ago. I think it bears repeating.

A word before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity; nor is this post an invitation to debate.
this is actually a debate forum, that is the rule here and stated clearly
First correction, from the forum rules posted as a sticky in every subforum here:

“The forum is in two main categories - the Debate category and the Discussion category. All debates belong in the debate category. .... All discussions belong in the discussion category. Any debates in the discussion subforums will either be moved or deleted.�

In other words: There are debate subfora, and there are discussion subfora. This is a discussion subforum.

Further: the guidelines to the Judaism forum explicitly state that the purpose of this subforum is “to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to.�

Seems clear enough to me. Whether or not you or anyone else considers Judaism to be true or valid is of no consequence. This isn’t the place to debate that subject. Period.
,,,,and it is easily proven from scriptures accepted by BOTH Jews and Christians, that neither Judaism nor Christianity is of Jesus Christ... so you are mistaken at the onset and need reproof to scripture of God ...
First, that assumes that everyone agrees that something can be “proved from scriptures� (and BTW, quoting the NT to a Jew is rather like quoting the Baghavad-Gita to a Navajo. You might as well quote Moby Dick. It’s of no interest to us).

Second, who ever said that Judaism is “of Jesus Christ�?

Third, whether or not Christianity is “of Jesus Christ� is of no interest to me or any other Jew (and, yes, on that matter as well as many others I CAN speak for all Jews).

Finally, though your opinion may be that I am “mistaken,� that opinion is not necessarily a fact; and therefore I don’t think it’s your place to offer me or anyone else “reproof.� That implies an authority that you do not have and have no right to claim.

Okay, I think that will do. I read the rest of your post, and find little of interest in it.

I will quote from the end of my initial post here, and add an explanation which appears never to have occurred to you:
I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."
The REASON the rabbis took that position was simply that NONE OF THEM FELT QUALIFIED TO SPEAK FOR GOD. That rather elementary bit of humility seems to have escaped you.

As many others have, you are clearly claiming here that BOTH Judaism, whatever that word means to you, and Christianity, are flatly wrong; and that YOU and ONLY YOU understand the Bible and the thoughts of God.

Seen it before. Not interested. Have a nice day.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #89

Post by otseng »

Raimi Stranger wrote: this is actually a debate forum, that is the rule here and stated clearly
The purpose of the Judaism subforum is not to debate.

See here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=11497
. . . is to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to.
If you want to debate, please start a thread in a debate subforum.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #90

Post by Raimi Stranger »

otseng wrote:
Raimi Stranger wrote: this is actually a debate forum, that is the rule here and stated clearly
The purpose of the Judaism subforum is not to debate.

See here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=11497
. . . is to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to.
If you want to debate, please start a thread in a debate subforum.
which part of :
" discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues"
did you not understand applies here according to the rules ?

equally the whole point and spirit of this site is OPEN discussion and debate of ALL aspects of religion and Christianity

that is the very NAME of this site ... and the point is that religion, even of Jews, is DIVIDED , so clearly is not the ONE Truth of the ONE God f all men... so obviously men will not REPROVE to scripture without some discussion...

this site is AGAINST dogmatism of religion because religion is divided and thus PROVES it is false... BOTH Christianity AND Judaism.... BOTH !

but the scripture TAKEN AS A WHOLE defeats ALL religious traditions of sinners and offers the PROOF by spirit baptism , Truth from God Himself, INCORRUPTIBLE PROOF , unlike religious tradition of men...

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