Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

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cnorman18

Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #1

Post by cnorman18 »

This is a reedited version of one of my first posts on this forum, from five years ago. I think it bears repeating.

A word before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity; nor is this post an invitation to debate. This post is intended to EXPLAIN something that very many non-Jews, including many Christians but also including many others, do not, apparently, understand.

Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how, in the words of our tradition, God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say that He did not. Only in the matter of literally worshiping idols as divine beings do we pronounce judgment, and that is rather rare in the modern world.

The battle has never been between Christians and Jews, anyway. We are on the same side. On the other side are today's idol-worshippers -- those who worship things; money, power, fame, gratification, status. May we both always remember that.

This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.

This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, accept Jesus as our Messiah.

That some few have, and do, does not matter. Peace to them, but there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important of those reasons. If you do not agree with them, that is your right, but these matters are not, for Jews, open to debate or argument.

To begin, then:

Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for, quite literally, thousands of years, and it has not changed.

The issue was never that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill," as many seem to think; most of the “prophecies� which it is claimed that Jesus fulfilled were never considered “prophecies� by Jews in the first place (the very term has a different meaning in the Jewish religion, which is only occasionally related to “foretelling the future�). The Messiah was never to be identified by “prophecy�; he was to be identified by the PERFORMANCE of certain concrete, real-world actions. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."

Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.

Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.

Other than that, St. Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes: (1) The Messiah was to be a military and/or a political leader, an actual, rightful King who would restore the line of David to the throne of Israel and reign in Jerusalem as the actual, literal earthly monarch of the Jewish nation. (2) He would restore the political independence of the land of Israel and free it from foreign rule. (3) Most importantly, he would institute a reign of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth -- in THIS world and THIS life; not in a symbolic or “spiritual� way, but in literal, present human history. This last is, as I say, the most important task of all; the Messiah would institute the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it was named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were, and remain, one.

It seems rather clear that none of these occurred, and most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah. The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!" The Messiah has not come.

Another issue is that Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, and power and authority far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah. These claims were and are alien to Judaism, and in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view. It was even claimed that Jesus was God incarnate, that a human being was, in fact and truth, God Almighty Himself.

It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing. He is Alone. He is One.

It would be easier for Jews to begin chowing down on ham-and-Swiss sandwiches on Yom Kippur than to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God. The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was. There is no hint of such a thing in any Jewish tradition; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable. (The one -- count ‘em, ONE -- verse from Scripture that is commonly given as proof that this notion DID have a part in Jewish tradition is, without apology, a gross misreading and mistranslation of the passage in question; and it is also unique. The idea that such a radical departure from the ancient tenets of the Jewish religion would not be known and even heavily emphasized throughout Jewish teachings over the centuries is more than a little ludicrous.)

Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one -- consider Zeus and Hercules -- and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, again, unthinkable:

Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.

All sins.

Now this is more difficult, because this is not widely known: Jews do not believe that God Himself has that power. God can forgive sins against Himself--ritual offenses, broken vows, and so on--but no more; a sin against another human must be forgiven by that person, or not at all. (This is why there can be no forgiveness for murder. The only one with the power to forgive is dead. This is also why the Jews of today cannot "forgive" the Holocaust. You must ask the six million for that forgiveness; we have no right to give it.)

By claiming this power, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God, but in fact greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes when they heard him speak.

And again, as if all this were not enough -- it was claimed that Jesus took on a role that had never been contemplated by any Jew from Abraham onward, a role that was not necessary and was, again, alien to the whole of Jewish teachings and traditions from the beginning to the present day -- the role of “Savior.� it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in it.

This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.

First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins in the first place. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," nor that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist (or redirect) the second to the best of our ability.

Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed. Sins are forgiven through prayer, repentance, and “deeds of lovingkindness.� No blood is necessary.

Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.

Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.

A concrete example, put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.

Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it isn't mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it -- and there is no belief in an eternal fiery Hell at all, anywhere in all of Jewish history or tradition. The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life in THIS world. The next, we leave to God. “Salvation,� in the Christian sense of “going to Heaven,� is a non-issue for Jews. It is not even a peripheral interest, let alone a central principle.

As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, as well as (in part) common literature, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so profoundly different that they really do constitute two entirely separate religions. That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge in the real world -- which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone.

One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right.

We have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business; for all any Jew knows, those beliefs are true and correct for Christians and God will honor them. Jesus may very well be YOUR Messiah, even though he is not ours. That is not for us to say.

But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held. As I say; this matter is not open to debate. This determination was made by my people two thousand years ago, and it is reaffirmed in every generation.

Thank you for reading. May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.

I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."

In that spirit, I'll also offer this: I have said for many years that, when (if) the Messiah finally comes, the Jews will look up and say, “You’re here!� the Christians will look up and say, “You’re back!� -- and then we’ll all hug each other and laugh about it.

Peace to all.

Charles

cnorman18

Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #21

Post by cnorman18 »

Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Goat wrote: I suggest you look up 'Humanistic Judaism' also. They have rejected the supernatural claims of Judaism, but still practice Judaism.
It is an interesting stream of Judaiusm. I participated in an SHJ synagogue for a couple of years and had the opportunity of meeting Rabbi Wine on more than one occasion. I found the services, Torah study, seders, etc., to be meaningful and valuable.
You met the late Rabbi Wine? I am envious. He is on the short list of people I had hoped to meet while they were living, but who died before I got the chance. Others are Isaac Asimov, Vincent Price, J. R. R. Tolkien, George Harrison, and Charles Schulz.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #22

Post by Goat »

cnorman18 wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Goat wrote: I suggest you look up 'Humanistic Judaism' also. They have rejected the supernatural claims of Judaism, but still practice Judaism.
It is an interesting stream of Judaiusm. I participated in an SHJ synagogue for a couple of years and had the opportunity of meeting Rabbi Wine on more than one occasion. I found the services, Torah study, seders, etc., to be meaningful and valuable.
You met the late Rabbi Wine? I am envious. He is on the short list of people I had hoped to meet while they were living, but who died before I got the chance. Others are Isaac Asimov, Vincent Price, J. R. R. Tolkien, George Harrison, and Charles Schulz.
I met Issac Asimov, and he autographed some books for me :P
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #23

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

cnorman18 wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Goat wrote: I suggest you look up 'Humanistic Judaism' also. They have rejected the supernatural claims of Judaism, but still practice Judaism.
It is an interesting stream of Judaiusm. I participated in an SHJ synagogue for a couple of years and had the opportunity of meeting Rabbi Wine on more than one occasion. I found the services, Torah study, seders, etc., to be meaningful and valuable.
You met the late Rabbi Wine?
Had dinner with him a couple of times (along with my Rabbi at the time and a half dozen other folks) prior to him speaking at our synagogue. Actually, I had some issues with the man, but there can be little doubt as to his intelligence and I suspect that I judged him prematurely. His death came as a real shock.

cnorman18

Post #24

Post by cnorman18 »

I have nothing to match either of those. I met Elvis when I was 9, but didn't find out who was till later -- and the same thing happened a decade later with Eric Clapton.

I guess the person I'd most like to meet at present is Stephen King. Among actors and entertainers, maybe Tom Hanks.

I had a chance to meet Glenn Beck. Didn't bother.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #25

Post by A Troubled Man »

Goat wrote:
Well, I can verify at least one :P . I suggest you look up 'Humanistic Judaism' also. They have rejected the supernatural claims of Judaism, but still practice Judaism.
It truly is fascinating to see folks like them deciding what they want to believe in their religions as opposed to what their religions want them to believe.

Perhaps, that's exactly the way religions are supposed to work. ;)

cnorman18

Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #26

Post by cnorman18 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
Goat wrote:
Well, I can verify at least one :P . I suggest you look up 'Humanistic Judaism' also. They have rejected the supernatural claims of Judaism, but still practice Judaism.
It truly is fascinating to see folks like them deciding what they want to believe in their religions as opposed to what their religions want them to believe.

Perhaps, that's exactly the way religions are supposed to work. ;)
Er, that's the way Judaism has ALWAYS worked. Of what does a "religion" consist if not the beliefs of the people who follow it? There is no Central Authority in Judaism to make such determinations, and there has not been one since the Sanhedrin was finally dissolved in 358 CE. Even when it existed, the Sanhedrin never dealt with theological or doctrinal matters, but only matters of Jewish law.

"Belief" has never been central in the Jewish religion as it is in most others, anyway; one's theological mental constructs have always been regarded as being of trivial importance next to one's ethical behavior. Therefore, even outright atheism has always been an option for Jews, even before it had a name.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #27

Post by A Troubled Man »

cnorman18 wrote: A fair question. Here is a link I've posted many times; there are many more. Just Google "Jewish atheists" and you will see them.
From the link...

"It allows them to feel a sense of Jewishness, but has little to do with religion."

"I want my kids to understand they are Jewish, to be proud of being Jewish and to understand their heritage," Cohen said. "And then they'll have a choice. If they want to go that way (towards belief in God), great. If they don't, they'll have a sense of where they came from."


From what I can glean there, it appears Judaism is shown as a 'heritage' one could either carry on, ignore completely or something in between.

But, it still eludes "towards belief in God" which still does not really answer the atheist issue. Surely, if the parents do believe in God, they are going to make sure their children do too.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #28

Post by A Troubled Man »

cnorman18 wrote:
Er, that's the way Judaism has ALWAYS worked. Of what does a "religion" consist if not the beliefs of the people who follow it? There is no Central Authority in Judaism to make such determinations, and there has not been one since the Sanhedrin was finally dissolved in 358 CE.
Er, isn't God the central authority in any religion?

cnorman18

Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #29

Post by cnorman18 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
cnorman18 wrote: A fair question. Here is a link I've posted many times; there are many more. Just Google "Jewish atheists" and you will see them.
From the link...

"It allows them to feel a sense of Jewishness, but has little to do with religion."

"I want my kids to understand they are Jewish, to be proud of being Jewish and to understand their heritage," Cohen said. "And then they'll have a choice. If they want to go that way (towards belief in God), great. If they don't, they'll have a sense of where they came from."


From what I can glean there, it appears Judaism is shown as a 'heritage' one could either carry on, ignore completely or something in between.

But, it still eludes "towards belief in God" which still does not really answer the atheist issue.
That was one opinion among several at that link, and that -- once again -- comes back to how one wishes to define "religion." Obviously Ms. Oko, who made those remarks, defines "religion" as "belief in God." That's a valid enough opinion, but there are others that are just as valid. There is no consensus among Jews on that issue. Witness this, also from that same link: "The question comes down to what it means to sustain a belief in God in Judaism, and that's a complicated issue." -- and the article notes that it is "one that Jews have been debating for centuries." That's very true, and as with most things in Judaism, debate on the matter continues to this day.

The source of THAT remark was Leora Batnitzky, the author of a book I have referenced here more than once: How Judaism Became a Religion; An Introduction to Modern Jewish Thought. The idea in that book is that "religion" is a category which did not exist for Jews before the Enlightenment, since for us, culture, heritage, belief, practice and community were all pretty much the same thing. They still are, and one emphasizes the parts of the whole that one chooses; but before that time, the distinctions did not matter, because were were, through no choice of our own, almost entirely isolated from the Gentile world. We lived in separate communities, either shtetls, separate villages, in rural areas, and ghettos (often walled) in towns. The distinction between "religious" and "secular" did not exist for us, and Jews who did not believe were still embraced by the community as a matter of solidarity and survival; they had nowhere else to go. Further, the kind or style of a "proper" belief in God has never been defined in the Jewish religion. My own belief in God, for instance, would hardly be recognizable as such a belief by one who holds supernaturalistic and literalist views -- but both are well within the spectrum of acceptable Jewish belief, as is no belief in God at all.

If one insists that "religion" MUST entail a belief in a personal God -- well, then some, even many, Jews cannot be called "religious." If one assumes that "religion" entails a belief in a personal God with all the usual characteristics -- omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, wholly good, and so on -- then very many more Jews would not be "religious." Of course, very many Jews ARE "religious" in that conventional and familiar way.

However, if one wishes to make a distinction between styles of belief, and between belief and absence of belief, and redefine some categories as "religion" and exclude others, one must deal with the fact that we Jews ourselves make no such distinctions, either between Jews who hold different kinds of beliefs about God or between Jews who hold some such beliefs and those who hold none at all, and have not done so for thousands of years. We don't even know who holds what kinds of beliefs, in practice; we just don't bother to talk about those issues. They are of little to no importance in our "religion," you'll excuse the expression.
Surely, if the parents do believe in God, they are going to make sure their children do too.
Sorry, but that doesn't necessarily follow. We don't even talk about these things within the family; they are not that important to us. Even there, one is "allowed" to believe as one chooses. I doubt that my wife, who was born Jewish, could tell you what her parents believed on that score. She herself holds a rather more conventional belief in God than I do; on the other hand, she does not hold any belief in the "Afterlife" at all. We don't argue about it. What would be the point? Can either of us PROVE to the other that our approach is the "correct" one? Judaism is a very practical religion, and we don't waste our time on issues that can neither be finally and conclusively determined -- nor have any practical real-world significance. We don't even argue with each other about the right way to "keep kosher" or whether to keep kosher at all (I and my wife do not). Freedom of thought and practice is the rule. The only restrictions on belief are against following the tenets of OTHER religions, e.g. worshiping multiple gods, or Allah, or of course a divine Jesus (as discussed in the rest of this thread).

Now, on to your next post:
A Troubled Man wrote:
cnorman18 wrote:
Er, that's the way Judaism has ALWAYS worked. Of what does a "religion" consist if not the beliefs of the people who follow it? There is no Central Authority in Judaism to make such determinations, and there has not been one since the Sanhedrin was finally dissolved in 358 CE.
Er, isn't God the central authority in any religion?
LOL! If one does not BELIEVE in God, that "authority" obviously doesn't apply; but even if one does, God would only be the "central authority" in theory. In practice, the idea is meaningless -- and again, Judaism is a very practical religion, in that it concerns itself with real things in the real world, most notably ethical behavior and community. Without prejudice as to whether God ever spoke directly to humans in the past, he certainly does not do so NOW; and since we do not regard the Torah itself as finally authoritative, and since NO ONE is acknowledged as speaking for God, what's left? Just us.

In the Jewish religion, humans, through the collective consensus of the wisest in the community, who are also identified by consensus, are the ultimate authority. This has been true for centuries on end. A story from the Talmud that I have quoted many, many times here illustrates the principle in parable form. Here it is, yet again, as it appeared in a recent thread ("Reading the Bible as Reason, not Revelation"), where it was reprinted from one of my first posts on this forum five years ago:
One of the most famous stories in the literature is that of an argument among the sages of old. The subject does not matter; it concerned a dispute over the dietary laws, and a minor dispute at that. 



As the story goes, the council had agreed on a conclusion--but one man, a particularly wise and pious sage, Rabbi Eliezer, disagreed. He attempted to change the council's decision by producing various miracles; "If I am right, let that tree move from its place to another a hundred cubits away"--and so it did.



(For those not paying attention, this is a teaching story, a parable. Its historicity is not asserted and is a trivial point. Observe the principle taught.)



Even after several such displays, each more astonishing than the last, the council refused to budge. Finally, Rabbi Eliezer called upon God Himself to confirm his judgment--and God did just that. A Voice from the sky proclaimed the rabbi's decision to be the correct one.



The leader of the council then stood and REBUKED GOD, with the remarkable words, "The Torah is not in Heaven!" - and the decision of the council stood. 



The principle is simple and important: Now that God has entrusted His laws and principles to humans, by whatever means, it is now OUR responsibility to understand and interpret them; we may depend on miraculous displays and supernatural events no longer. We are to grow up and figure out for ourselves what is just and right, and the Torah itself is subject to human judgment.



And what, according to the story, was God's reaction to this? 



He is said to have laughed. "My children have defeated Me!" God was pleased at the development of humans standing on their own, needing His guidance no longer. That is apparently what He intended.



This is not a matter of human arrogance; Jews believe that we were, and are, commanded to do this in the Torah itself. We are to work out the meaning of the Law in every generation, while never turning our backs on the tradition--the cumulative wisdom and judgment of the generations of the Wise who came before us.



Jews do not believe that God gave us a Book that would be an infallible guide to history, science, or even ethics, and that we can stop using our brains and just look up all the answers in its pages. We believe that He gave us brains to use, and to the very best of our ability. 

Another principle is illustrated in that story, which is relevant here; "Voices from Heaven," or other supernatural communications, are regarded as deeply suspect in the Jewish religion. The bat kol, literally "daughter of a voice," is said to be deceptive and mischievous and is not to be trusted. This may have been a medieval way of saying it was a manifestation of mental illness or hallucination. Whatever the reason, Direct Revelation is no longer authoritative for Jews, whether or not it ever was.

One final note: I would remind you of something from an earlier post on this thread, and your response to it:
This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.
Your reply, in your first post to this thread, begins with: "That's fair..."

This thread is on the very specific issue of why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. If you want to go farther into the issues you keep bringing up here, I suggest that you do so on another thread, as I implicltly requested in my OP.

Thanks very much.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #30

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

A Troubled Man wrote:
cnorman18 wrote:
Er, that's the way Judaism has ALWAYS worked. Of what does a "religion" consist if not the beliefs of the people who follow it? There is no Central Authority in Judaism to make such determinations, and there has not been one since the Sanhedrin was finally dissolved in 358 CE.
Er, isn't God the central authority in any religion?
No. Next.

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