Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

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cnorman18

Post #11

Post by cnorman18 »

Jayhawker Soule wrote: While I found the OP to be lovely, let me add one note of caution: during the waning days of the Second Temple Period messianic concepts were a bit more variegated and fluid (as was 'Judaism' in general). So, for example, here. To pretend that there was a generally agreed upon job description floating around circa 30 ce is a bit anachronistic.
Okay, agreed.

But show me where any of those variegated and fluid concepts contained anything about the Messiah being God Incarnate, or the literal Son of God, or the Savior who would be sacrificed for the sins of the world and then rise from the dead. It's not only what Jesus didn't do; it's the claims that were made FOR him that are outside of ANY Jewish teaching tradition that EVER had a place in our heritage. One might plausibly find a way for a Jew to believe that Jesus was Messiah, in one of those fringe conceptions of the office; but for a Jew to believe in the Christ? No, never. Not and remain a practicing Jew, in that age or this one.

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Jayhawker Soule
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Post #12

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

cnorman18 wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote: While I found the OP to be lovely, let me add one note of caution: during the waning days of the Second Temple Period messianic concepts were a bit more variegated and fluid (as was 'Judaism' in general). So, for example, here. To pretend that there was a generally agreed upon job description floating around circa 30 ce is a bit anachronistic.
Okay, agreed.

But ....
To say that Jesus fulfilled no surviving messianic prophesy is simply to argue that the Pharisees won. That point is not in dispute.

(Parenthetically, I have no belief in a Jewish messiah of any ilk. Rather, I hold such beliefs to be, like the belief in heaven, a post biblical (post-Torah) reaction to unjustifiable failure and and the problem of evil. I reject Jesus because I reject Hellenism and support monism.)

cnorman18

Post #13

Post by cnorman18 »

Jayhawker Soule wrote:
cnorman18 wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote: While I found the OP to be lovely, let me add one note of caution: during the waning days of the Second Temple Period messianic concepts were a bit more variegated and fluid (as was 'Judaism' in general). So, for example, here. To pretend that there was a generally agreed upon job description floating around circa 30 ce is a bit anachronistic.
Okay, agreed.

But ....
To say that Jesus fulfilled no surviving messianic prophesy is simply to argue that the Pharisees won. That point is not in dispute.
But that's not what I said. The issue is no longer whether or not Jesus was the Messiah; that is not argued by any significant movement or number of people. It is whether Jesus was the Christ, and whether Christianity has supplanted and replaced Judaism, or should. That was the subject of the OP and of this thread.
(Parenthetically, I have no belief in a Jewish messiah of any ilk. Rather, I hold such beliefs to be, like the belief in heaven, a post biblical (post-Torah) reaction to unjustifiable failure and and the problem of evil. I reject Jesus because I reject Hellenism and support monism.)
Okay, no argument there; but then I have few "theological" arguments with anybody on anything but redefining Judaism.

I have no view on the Messiah, myself; some authorities opined that that time was past, and long ago; some say that the Messianic Age is a symbol for a goal that may be unreachable, just as Eden was a symbol for an ideal past that never existed; and some say the meaning of the belief, or legend, will only be known in the future, if ever.

Me, I tend to live in the moment. What's happening TODAY that we need to be concerned with? The meaning of the Messiah tradition is pretty close to angels dancing on pins, as far as practical matters are concerned. Of course, I tend to think that about all theological or "spiritual" topics.

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Post #14

Post by bluethread »

Jayhawker Soule wrote: To say that Jesus fulfilled no surviving messianic prophesy is simply to argue that the Pharisees won. That point is not in dispute.
I would say that the Pharisees won either way. Presuming one believes that Yeshua existed as presented, aren't those teaching more in line with Phariseeism than any of the other sects of the time? That might be why there was so much friction. Isn't it much more difficult to abide someone who differs on one or two major points, than to abide one who is in total disagreement? :-k

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Post #15

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

bluethread wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote: To say that Jesus fulfilled no surviving messianic prophesy is simply to argue that the Pharisees won. That point is not in dispute.
I would say that the Pharisees won either way.
I would agree. My sole point is that the messiah was a fluid concept, even including a belief in a dual messianic age featuring a collaboration between a Davidic and an Aaronic messiah. On the other hand, there was indeed a red line that was not crossed: whatever he was, the anticipated messiah was not a god.

cnorman18

Post #16

Post by cnorman18 »

Jayhawker Soule wrote:
bluethread wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote: To say that Jesus fulfilled no surviving messianic prophesy is simply to argue that the Pharisees won. That point is not in dispute.
I would say that the Pharisees won either way.
I would agree. My sole point is that the messiah was a fluid concept, even including a belief in a dual messianic age featuring a collaboration between a Davidic and an Aaronic messiah. On the other hand, there was indeed a red line that was not crossed: whatever he was, the anticipated messiah was not a god.
I would agree with that. I would also add that the concept of the Messiah is no longer of any particular significance to modern, i.e. non-Orthodox, Jews, largely because of the Jesus issue and the efforts of Christians to force their beliefs upon Jews. Largely, but not entirely. It is widely recognized among Jews that we have been burned rather often by claimants to that office other than Jesus; Sabbatai Zevi, Simon bar Kokhba, and others. The issue among Conservative and Reform Jews is today more or less dead, and fit for historical study and perhaps speculation only.

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #17

Post by A Troubled Man »

cnorman18 wrote:
This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.
That's fair, but it would be prudent to question that if "very many Jews ARE atheists" how does one go about substantiating these claims...?
We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life in THIS world. The next, we leave to God.

May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.
Notwithstanding, I did enjoy reading this post.

cnorman18

Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #18

Post by cnorman18 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
cnorman18 wrote:
This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.
That's fair, but it would be prudent to question that if "very many Jews ARE atheists" how does one go about substantiating these claims...?
A fair question. Here is a link I've posted many times; there are many more. Just Google "Jewish atheists" and you will see them.

Further, Reconstructionist Judaism is a relatively new branch of the religion wherein belief in God is explicitly optional (it is tacitly accepted in the other branches), and Humanistic Judaism is an even newer movement with is unambiguously atheistic in nature.

Estimates of the number of practicing Jews who are atheists run as high as 15%.
We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life in THIS world. The next, we leave to God.

May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.
Notwithstanding, I did enjoy reading this post.
Thanks very much!

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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #19

Post by Goat »

A Troubled Man wrote:
cnorman18 wrote:
This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.
That's fair, but it would be prudent to question that if "very many Jews ARE atheists" how does one go about substantiating these claims...?
We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life in THIS world. The next, we leave to God.

May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.
Notwithstanding, I did enjoy reading this post.

Well, I can verify at least one :P . I suggest you look up 'Humanistic Judaism' also. They have rejected the supernatural claims of Judaism, but still practice Judaism.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Jayhawker Soule
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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #20

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Goat wrote: I suggest you look up 'Humanistic Judaism' also. They have rejected the supernatural claims of Judaism, but still practice Judaism.
It is an interesting stream of Judaiusm. I participated in an SHJ synagogue for a couple of years and had the opportunity of meeting Rabbi Wine on more than one occasion. I found the services, Torah study, seders, etc., to be meaningful and valuable.

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