Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

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cnorman19
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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #111

Post by cnorman19 »

I don't intend to pick up EVERY conversation that I left behind, but I thought it mere courtesy to respond to this one, even if is almost a year later:
1213 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by cnorman18]
The issue was never that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill," as many seem to think; most of the “prophecies� which it is claimed that Jesus fulfilled were never considered “prophecies� by Jews in the first place (the very term has a different meaning in the Jewish religion, which is only occasionally related to “foretelling the future�). The Messiah was never to be identified by “prophecy�; he was to be identified by the PERFORMANCE of certain concrete, real-world actions. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."
That sounds quite contradictory, if there was things that Messiah should do to be recognized as Messiah, then there were prophesy, an idea what Messiah should be, when he comes.
Of course. But the "prophecies" in question had to do with the substantive accomplishments of the Messiah, not with mere details of birth, riding donkeys, and that sort of thing. Saying "The Messiah will preside over a world of perfect peace, faith and justice" is not QUITE the same as saying "He will be born of a virgin in Bethlehem."
(1) The Messiah was to be a military and/or a political leader, an actual, rightful King who would restore the line of David to the throne of Israel and reign in Jerusalem as the actual, literal earthly monarch of the Jewish nation. (2) He would restore the political independence of the land of Israel and free it from foreign rule. (3) Most importantly, he would institute a reign of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth -- in THIS world and THIS life; not in a symbolic or “spiritual� way, but in literal, present human history.
Could you tell me, on what basis that was expected?
Universal Jewish traditions and teachings of long standing (as in, of two or three thousand years). If you expect to find the teachings of Judaism in the Hebrew Bible, you're looking in the wrong place. That is also surprising to many Christians, but it is the case nevertheless.
It was even claimed that Jesus was God incarnate, that a human being was, in fact and truth, God Almighty Himself.
I hope that Jews would get the knowledge that Jesus didn’t claim to be God. He directly said that God is greater than him and that he speaks what God had commanded him to speak.
You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50
It is, without question, a tenet of the Christian religion that Jesus was God Incarnate. As the Nicene Creed has it:

"...one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made."

If Jesus himself never said that -- and I agree with you -- then your argument is with the Christian denominations, not with me or with Judaism.
Jews do not believe that God Himself has that power.
I think it is interesting, if the God of Jews is not all powerful.
It may be a surprise to you, but Jews do believe that God's power is limited in certain ways. Whether He chooses to limit Himself in those ways, no one professes to know; but that is the case, whether you knew it or not.
Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed. Sins are forgiven through prayer, repentance, and “deeds of lovingkindness.� No blood is necessary.
Sorry, if you have already answered, but how you explain the animal sacrifices that were taught in Law of Moses?
Here is a link to the Jewish Virtual Library that might help you. The salient passage, in the present context, is as follows:
"The atoning aspect of Karbanot [sacrifices] is carefully circumscribed. For the most part, Karbanot only expiate unintentional sins, that is, sins committed because a person forgot that this thing was a sin. No atonement is needed for violations committed under duress or through lack of knowledge, and for the most part, Karbanot cannot atone for a malicious, deliberate sin. In addition, Karbanot have no expiating effect unless the person making the offering sincerely repents his or her actions before making the offering, and makes restitution to any person who was harmed by the violation."

Salvation, in the Christian sense of "being saved from Sin and going to Heaven," has no analogue in the Jewish religion.

Mesopatamia
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Re: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

Post #112

Post by Mesopatamia »

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 565#484565]Replying to post 1 by cnorman18[/url

As a Jewish believer, I absolutely love your post. Thank you for taking the time to share all of that and I could definitely identify with a lot of what you said, as far as respecting other's faith and beliefs.

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