IF's Bible Study

Dedicated to the scholarly study of the bible as text and the discussion thereof

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Icarus Fallen
Banned
Banned
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 am

IF's Bible Study

Post #1

Post by Icarus Fallen »

Men and Brethren (you too, Lucia et al),

I'm a novice to the scriptures and therefore seek guidence in my quest for understanding 'the inerrant Word of God'. I've noticed (in other discussions here and elsewhere) that certain apologists quite often refer/defer to the original Greek/Aramaic/Hebrew texts when trying to ascertain the meaning(s) most likely intended by the author(s) of a given passage. It is my hope that such knowledgeable individuals will see fit to chime-in and shed light upon some of the more perplexing scriptures the Bible has to offer.

To get the ball rolling, I offer-up Ezekial 23:20-21. The verses read as follows:
20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
21 Thus thou calledst to rembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
In all honesty, I find the process of exegeting via analogy/metaphor to be very compelling! Israel: the unfaithful wife; God: the doting and ever-faithful husband -- together forever in a marriage of necessity. It's all so poetic, it makes me wanna puke. Yet, given the degrading nature (WRT women) of so many scriptures, the analogy makes perfect sense here, ...doesn't it.

What I find perplexing about this passage, though, is the degree of graphic detail to which God supposedly inspired Ezekial to write. Why do we need to know that the "paramours" were endowed like asses and ejaculated like horses? I mean, forgive me for asking, but let's face it: that's Bible!

So, what I'd like to know is this: regarding 20, what, exactly, did the author mean to accentuate, by "whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses"; and regarding 21, what historical correlary might there be, for "in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth."?

Might the original langauge paint a clearer picture?

Might the presumed analogy really be an invocation of actual events, such as the temple prostitution referred to later by Hosea?
Image

User avatar
Icarus Fallen
Banned
Banned
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 am

Post #2

Post by Icarus Fallen »

Brethren,

In line with the mystery of "asses' flesh, horse issue, bruised teats, and paps", maybe we should delve deeper into the interpretational quandry. Suspecting that the Bible may, in fact, be rich in metaphor, the question arises: how can we know when a given passage is to be understood metaphorically, literally, or perhaps some combination of the two? And how can we know that we're extracting the gist of the author's intended message, whether by analogization or some other exegetical mode?

To take another baffling example from the scriptures, consider 1Kings 14:10 and 16:11:
14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

16:11 And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not that pisseth against the wall, neither of his kinfolks, nor of his friends.
It seems to me, that in both cases, the removal of "him that pisseth against the wall" is intended to emphasize the severity (or completeness) of the removal of individuals -- the former verse adding insult to injury by comparing the method of removal to the taking away of "dung" "till it be all gone".

But is my assessment correct and/or complete?

For all I know, in either or both cases,"the wall" could be a metaphor (ala Pink Floyd) -- 'the establishment' (if you will) against which the pissers rail. And personification being a double-edged sword, what of the feelings of the "wall" itself? Maybe the author wanted us to place ourselves in its shoes, and to try to see the whole scriptural package (so to speak) from the perspective of that wall. Might it be that angle from which we were intended to consider the pisser, and to gather the strength to ask ourselves individually: who is "he" to "pisseth" on me?!

How are we to know what the litany of god-inspired authors intended? Image
Image

User avatar
nogods
Student
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:56 pm
Location: SOUTH CAROLINA

Post #3

Post by nogods »

Wait until you find out the real meaning of "thigh."

User avatar
Icarus Fallen
Banned
Banned
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 am

Post #4

Post by Icarus Fallen »

[COUGH]Numbers 5:27[/COUGH] :lol:
Image

User avatar
Icarus Fallen
Banned
Banned
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 am

Post #5

Post by Icarus Fallen »

Brethren,

Another point to ponder: regarding the above biblical reference to "dung", perhaps we'd be justified in erring on the side of "politeness" ...and in overlooking the disgusting hyperbole of that particular passage. In fairness, it does deal with a functional aspect of dung (namely the elimination/removal thereof) in day-to-day life prior to the advent of modern sanitation. BUT, how we could possibly overlook the potential implications of certain other scriptural references ...is completely beyond me! I'm mean, eating it (see 2 Kings 18:27, as well )?! Rubbing peoples' faces in it?! C'mon, People, admit it: some of these references go well beyond the functional aspects of poo-poo and pee-pee.

Honestly, don't we sort of have to ask ourselves: what's up with God's apparent preoccupation there?
Image

User avatar
Icarus Fallen
Banned
Banned
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 am

Post #6

Post by Icarus Fallen »

Brethren,

Another puzzling passage to consider, I give you Genesis 38:7-10:
Genesis 38:7-10 7But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD, and the LORD put him to death. 8Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.’ 9But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10What he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he put him to death also.
So, the pull-and-pray method of birth-control is definitely out of the question! Take heed, Christian couples, lest God "put you to death" for such a crime!

Of course, there are some other dynamics in play here as well -- a father's sanctioning of the bumping of uglies as "the duty of a brother-in-law"; the performance of that "duty" (minus the proper method of climaxing); and probably the biggest of all issues in question: what, exactly, was it about the whole sordid scenario that was found "displeasing in the sight of the LORD"?

Does anyone have a more poetic than literal interpretation in mind here?

Discuss.
Image

User avatar
Icarus Fallen
Banned
Banned
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 am

Post #7

Post by Icarus Fallen »

Brethren?

I'm in spiritual turmoil over some of this stuff; and what I've presented thus far ...doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what's in store!

Is anyone out there?
Image

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Post #8

Post by McCulloch »

It is evident that the ancient writers do not share the sense of modern prudishness, where topics such as the process of human reproduction, defecation, urination and mammary glands are not spoken about in polite conversation.

Is there any reason why these particular passages cause you spiritual turmoil while other equally confusing passages which make no reference to modern taboo topics apparently do not?

BTW, do not read Shir ha-Shirim, aka Song of Songs, or Song of Solomon.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

User avatar
Icarus Fallen
Banned
Banned
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 am

Post #9

Post by Icarus Fallen »

Micky C,
McCulloch wrote:Is there any reason why these particular passages cause you spiritual turmoil while other equally confusing passages which make no reference to modern taboo topics apparently do not? [emphasis IF's]
*tsk*

That's far too presumptuous, and I suspect just a tad-bit fallacious. After all, on what (but my hitherto silence) might that presumption be based?
McCulloch wrote:BTW, do not read Shir ha-Shirim, aka Song of Songs, or Song of Solomon.
How 'bout a little credit, McC.

Don't you think I've earned it?
Image

User avatar
Icarus Fallen
Banned
Banned
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 5:31 am

Post #10

Post by Icarus Fallen »

...but since the evolution of today's standards as to what can be "spoken about in polite conversation" (and, for that matter, of modern ethical sensibilities in general) has apparently occurred largely in spite of "the inerrant Word of God", I do find ironic the air of moral superiority that tends to emanate from many Christian circles.

Moreover, in light of the biblical justifiability of so many things deemed morally reprehensible in modern societies (E.G. infanticide, genocide, rape, pillaging, human sacrifice, cannibalism, and so on...), I'm totally slack-jawed by some of the ongoing efforts of Christians (and of the Christian Right in particular). I mean, why are these people not as bulldoggish in the pursuit of the re-legalization of slavery as they are in their organized onslaught on homosexuality and a woman's right to choose?!
Image

Post Reply