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Post #1

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GENESIS 29
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Ancient well Gen 29:10

Image >> Image

Leah
  • Reuben
    Simeon
    Judah
    Levi

Bilah

Zilph

What must it felt like to be Leah? How did God comfort her?

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Post #2

Post by Cathar1950 »

God comforted her with children?

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Post #3

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Cathar1950 wrote:God comforted her with children?
Yes, in those days children were viewed as a great blessing and source of joy.

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Post #4

Post by EasternSP »

Maybe to take this a step further, but I'm sure there would be a few things to think about in what would have troubled Leah.
- Her father forcing Jacob to take her as his wife when he thought he had been working to marry Rachael.
- Was she not good looking. I don't know if they had mirrors then, but she could see her reflection in a pan of water.
- I'm under the impression that she had eye sight problem of some sort.
- I suppose she was brought up with the understanding that she could be one of several wives to a single man as the social norm.

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Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

EasternSP wrote:Maybe to take this a step further, but I'm sure there would be a few things to think about in what would have troubled Leah.
- Her father forcing Jacob to take her as his wife when he thought he had been working to marry Rachael.
- Was she not good looking. I don't know if they had mirrors then, but she could see her reflection in a pan of water.
- I'm under the impression that she had eye sight problem of some sort.
- I suppose she was brought up with the understanding that she could be one of several wives to a single man as the social norm.
LEAH

- Leah indeed found comfort in her children; no woman wants to be forced into a marriage and it must have been common knowledge that Jacob loved her sister and expected to be wedded to her. Nobody wants to be considered "second best" and what woman wants to wake up next to a man, hung over from the night before and see a look of total horror on his face.

- While Leah was no doubt less beautiful than her sisters, she may well have fairly attractive. Sisters tend to resemble each other to some degree and while Jacob was not intitially attracted to her does not indicated that she "was not good looking" only that she was not as goodlooking to Jacob as her sister. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder and without external standards imposed on them few people would look in a mirror and think they are ugly. In any case I often think of Leah and how there may well have been someone in her entourage hopelessly in love with her... that found her quite beautiful to him. Who knows. What we do know, is life handed her lemons, so she made lemonade.


- The biblical expression of Genesis 29: 17 " the eyes of Le′ah had no luster" NWT does not necessarily indicate she was blind or had problems of vision. Nothing in the biblical account indicates that Leah was visually impaired in any way. More likely, in the orient were bright or light coloured eyes are appreciated hers lacked "sparkle" while her sisters beautiful eyes made Jacob's heart go all a pitter-patter.

- Having several wives is the social norm in many many cultures, even today.

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Post #6

Post by Cathar1950 »

Leah had eyes like a cow and he sister was shapely, Jacob loved her...
Some suggests she had this eye disease.

Jacob was tricked just like he tricked his dad and brother. Maybe it runs in the family.
The sister story where he claims his wife is a sister, Abraham and either Jacob or Issac and then left with wealth from the guy they scammed. Maybe they were a family of scam artists or they just told the same story for different imagined ancestors.

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Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Cathar1950 wrote:Leah had eyes like a cow
Cows have quite beautiful eyes actually.
Cathar1950 wrote:he[r] sister was shapely.
Yes Leah no doubt had a good figure.

Cathar1950 wrote: Jacob loved her...
Yes, Jacob loved Rachel deeply.

Cathar1950 wrote: Some suggests she had this eye disease.
Since this is a bible forum, please produce something in scripture for your interpretation.


Cathar1950 wrote:Jacob was tricked just like he tricked his dad and brother. Maybe it runs in the family.
Possibly, they were certainly all very savvy.

Cathar1950 wrote:The sister story where he claims his wife is a sister,
Do you possibly have enough bible knowledge to produce the scripture you are refering to?

Cathar1950 wrote:he claims his wife is a sister,.
Who are you refering to? Do you know?

Cathar1950 wrote: Abraham and either Jacob or Issac and then left with wealth from the guy they scammed.
Do you know who you are talking about?
What "scam" are you refering to? Do you know?
Cathar1950 wrote: Maybe they were a family of scam artists.
Since this is a bible study forum, which scriptures are you specifically refering to?
Cathar1950 wrote: or they just told the same story for different imagined ancestors
Who and what are you refering to here? Since this is a bible study forum please provide scriptural references for discussion.

Thanks

Respect
JW

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Post #8

Post by Cathar1950 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:Leah had eyes like a cow
Cows have quite beautiful eyes actually.
I suppose to some they do, beauty is indeed in the eyes of the beholder.
Sometime beauty isn’t even skin deep.

Interestingly I was reading where Leah, besides being a moon goddess or worshiped ancestress, mean cow and Rachel meant ewe which might at least account for the cow eyes traditions, including those that try to explain it as a disease that cow got from some fly which could also be suffered by humans.
Given the late date of this story, it is showing the perplexing idea of favoritism even seen in God. Jacob also had children by the handmaidens or whatever of Rachel. Later Rabbis even had a tradition that the handmaidens were sister of one of the parents of Rachel so there would not be any ideas of slave half-Gentile brothers. Other writers would go the opposite direction even making a couple of David’s ancestors Gentiles.

I really not sure why we should think it was meant as something bad and not maybe even complimentary depending on how you translate it.
Friedman translated it as tender, I kind of like tender eyes better then cow eyes even if they are beautiful.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:he[r] sister was shapely.
Yes Leah no doubt had a good figure.
It does not tell us that, it says Rachel had the attractive figure and Jacob lover her.
What does speculation about Leah’s figure have to do with it?
Maybe she had a figure like a cow ,and in comparison, Rachel looked pretty good.
After all they problem got him pretty drunk to pull of the ruse, but such are the things of stories. They tell us much about the writers.
Maybe you think cows are pretty shapely too?
I am sure there are butchers and milkers that feel the same way.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote: Jacob loved her...
Yes, Jacob loved Rachel deeply.
I think we pretty much got that.
Moreover, God hated Esau, which is Biblical.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote: Some suggests she had this eye disease.
Since this is a bible forum, please produce something in scripture for your interpretation.
That isn’t how a Bible forum should work as we want to know as much as we can about the writer, the times and the intent of the writing or even story and meanings of the words. You are going to need to go beyond what ever you imagine the Bible to be unless we are playing Sunday school then that is fine. It would also be inappropriate to go to the NT to interpret a Jewish writing about Leah’s eyes.
Where do you think we should look in the Bible on information about Leah’s eyes?
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:Jacob was tricked just like he tricked his dad and brother. Maybe it runs in the family.
Possibly, they were certainly all very savvy.
I suppose if that is what you want to call it.
On the other hand, it could just a good story line worth repeating.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:The sister story where he claims his wife is a sister,
Do you possibly have enough bible knowledge to produce the scripture you are refering to?
.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:he claims his wife is a sister,.
Who are you refering to? Do you know? Of course, I know, why would I talk about it if I didn’t? Do you talk about stuff you don’t know?
I was referring to Abraham and Isaac. See below. Did you know?
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote: Abraham and either Jacob or Isaac and then left with wealth from the guy they scammed.
Do you know who you are talking about?
What "scam" are you refering to? Do you know?
Yes I do know what I am talking about, do you know what I am talking about?
The “she is my sister� ruse. In defense, there were such things as sacred adoptions to reinforce inheritances and bonds. She (Sarah) might have been legally adopted as a sister and the same for Isaac. I tend to think poor old Isaac was sacrifice in one of the older Hebrew stories and was later used to join Abraham with Jacob and Israel.
I don’t mind that we get information outside of the Bible. Unless you are going to read it like a storybook, then have at it.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote: Maybe they were a family of scam artists.
Since this is a bible study forum, which scriptures are you specifically refering to?
By all means.
Twice Abraham passes Sarah off as his sister [Genesis 12:10-20; 20:1-18] and once Isaac passes off Rebekah as his sister [Genesis 26:1-16].
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote: or they just told the same story for different imagined ancestors
Who and what are you refering to here? Since this is a bible study forum please provide scriptural references for discussion.

Thanks

Respect
JW
I did above, and you didn’t need to ask twice.
Given the tone of your post, I don’t think respect is the correct word. Do you have scripture to back that up?

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Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Cathar1950 wrote:Interestingly I was reading where Leah... mean cow and Rachel meant ewe
Interesting but are you capable of producing ANY references whatsoever in regard to the above. Some factual information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
Cathar1950 wrote:...which might at least account for the cow eyes traditions
What "cow eye" traditions are you refering to? This is a bible forum - are you refering to a "cow eye tradition" mentioned in scripture? Please site the scripture you are refering to.

Thanks
Cathar1950 wrote: Given the late date of this story, it is showing the perplexing idea of favoritism even seen in God.
Well, to be honest Jacob never intended to marry two women (let alone 4) so that fact that rachel was his "favorite" is only natural. Most men are attached to their wives and prefer them to other women.

Cathar1950 wrote: Other writers would go the opposite direction even making a couple of David’s ancestors Gentiles.
The bible is the authority on this forum - thus according to the bible some of David's ancestors WERE Gentiles (nobody "made" them such, since the writers were recording historical fact) If you want to argue this is not fact please go elsewhere.

Thanks.

Cathar1950 wrote:Friedman translated it as tender, I kind of like tender eyes better then cow eyes even if they are beautiful.
That's nice, Rachel had "tender eyes" that's a very beautiful rendition.

Cathar1950 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:he[r] sister was shapely.
Yes Leah no doubt had a good figure.
It does not tell us that, it says Rachel had the attractive figure
[/quote]

Yes, I should have said "too" - I see were the confusion arose. In any case I have to ask you where you got the idea about Rachel's shape. Could you please site the scritpure to avoid future confusion. Thanks.
Cathar1950 wrote:he[r] sister was shapely.
I don't recall anything refering to Rachel's SHAPE; but I'll stand corrected if you can provide the scripture upon which you base this conclusion. So please prove that here shape is mentioned. ("shapely" this word I don't think is in scripture but I will stand corrected if you can prove this).

Evidence of shape please.

Thanks
Cathar1950 wrote:he[r] sister was shapely.
Cathar1950 wrote: It does not tell us that, it says Rachel had the attractive figure
Where? Which scriture mentions her "figure"?
Cathar1950 wrote:What does speculation about Leah’s figure have to do with it?
Have to do with what?
Cathar1950 wrote:Maybe she had a figure like a cow ,and in comparison, Rachel looked pretty good.
Maybe, or maybe she was quite beautiful and had a lovely figure although she was not AS attractive as her sister.

Cathar1950 wrote:After all they problem got him pretty drunk to pull of the ruse, ...
The context indicates he was given alcohol not because Leah was too ugly to sleep with sober but because Jacob expected to have Rachel. Even if Leah was quite attractive Jacob would still have been unhappy because Leah was not the woman he was in love with. And not the woman he wanted to marry.

Cathar1950 wrote: Maybe you think cows are pretty shapely too?
I am sure there are butchers and milkers that feel the same way.
Firstly YOU introduced the idea of "shape" ... here is you doing it:
Cathar1950 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:he[r] sister was shapely.
I was commenting about Leah's proposed "cow eyes" .

In any case your point about butchers and "milkers" possibly finding cows shapely is totally irrelevant and will be ignored as such.

Cathar1950 wrote:
Since this is a bible forum, please produce something in scripture for your interpretation.
That isn’t how a Bible forum should work
If you are incapable of producing the actual scripture you are refering to, how can any additional information be presented. Please be precise in future.
Cathar1950 wrote: inappropriate to go to the NT to interpret a Jewish writing about Leah’s eyes
Be my guest - you haven't actually posted any Jewish writing about Leah's eyes, but when you do I'll be happy to read what you post here.

Thanks in advance.
Cathar1950 wrote:Where do you think we should look in the Bible on information about Leah’s eyes?
"WE"? You can look up whatever is of interest to you and share it. I'll be happy to comment if I find what you post worthy of my time. I can't nanny you as to where you should go - you'll have to show some initiative.

Good luck!

Cathar1950 wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:Jacob was tricked just like he tricked his dad and brother. Maybe it runs in the family.
Possibly, they were certainly all very savvy.
I suppose if that is what you want to call it. [/quote]

If that's not what I wanted to call it obviously I would not have called it that. Therefore this comment is irrelevant. Adverbial permission is unnecessary to post on this site.
Cathar1950 wrote:On the other hand, it could just a good story line worth repeating.
I agree - I think its an excellent story.
Cathar1950 wrote:The sister story where he claims his wife is a sister ...
I was referring to Abraham and Isaac.
Yes, Sarah was Abraham's half sister. (see Ge 20:2, 12)

Isaac married his cousin's daughter (Rebekah) (see Ge 22:20-23); I'm not sure how you would describe their blood link... second cousin?

The Hebrew word “Sister� (’a·chohth′) is often used in scripture in its broader usage to included fellow countrywomen or those with a close relationship (morals or practices); In this sense Rebekah was Issacs "sister" (being his father's grandneice) (see Nu 25:17, 18, Jer 3:7-10; Eze 16:46, 48, 49, 55; 23:32, 33.
Cathar1950 wrote:
Twice Abraham passes Sarah off as his sister [Genesis 12:10-20; 20:1-18] and once Isaac passes off Rebekah as his sister [Genesis 26:1-16].
See above

Unsubstantiated conclusions apart, you bought up some one or two interesting points which I appreciated. Please don't take my challenging of your opinions or request you are specific in your references as disrespect, that's how both poser and reader learn.


JW

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Post #10

Post by Cathar1950 »

Leah

Reuben
Simeon
Judah
Levi


Bilah

Zilph

What must it felt like to be Leah? How did God comfort her?
I guess all you are left with is just some quote uninterpreted to answer any of the above two questions.
The idea of one name meaning cow and the other ewe seems lost on you as well as the differences in description although you were willing to interject some opinion about Leah's figure that was non-biblical and the opposite of what seems to be intended as they mentioned her sister attractive shapely figure/body.
Appealing to the authority of the Bible in areas like this hardly seem productive and there is nothing in the Bible that says these stories are and must be "fact" or whatever that might be in your mind.
What is the story teller trying to say to the reader seems like a good start.

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