Three interpretations of The Baptism of Jesus

[yourfriendrick]

I have encountered a reading of the Gospel which seemed perversely wrong to me.

Here is the original Greek:

10
καὶ ε�θὺς ἀναβαίνων �κ τοῦ ὕδατος εἶδεν σχιζομένους τοὺς ο��ανοὺς καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα ὡς πε�ιστε�ὰν καταβαῖνον εἰς α�τόν:
11
καὶ φωνὴ �γένετο �κ τῶν ο��ανῶν, Σὺ εἶ � υἱός μου � ἀγαπητός, �ν σοὶ ε�δόκησα.
12
Καὶ ε�θὺς τὸ πνεῦμα α�τὸν �κβάλλει εἰς τὴν ἔ�ημον.
13
καὶ ἦν �ν τῇ ��ήμῳ τεσσε�άκοντα ἡμέ�ας πει�αζόμενος ὑπὸ τοῦ Σατανᾶ, καὶ ἦν μετὰ τῶν θη�ίων, καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι διηκόνουν α�τῷ.

First off: notice εἶδεν means "he saw." As in, just Jesus saw, not everybody saw, because it was a vision, not a physical event. Then a string of "and" connectors indicates that the voice was part of Jesus' vision, not a physical voice.

Just looking at the Greek as an amateur scholar, it seems indisputable to me that "he saw" is singular. That means that Jesus saw the heavens open, and no one else saw it. That means that the Bible is describing a visionary event, not something physical that could be seen by any eye-witness. That's *my* interpretation.

However, another interpretation would be that something literally happened with the sky, something was visible and tangible to all onlookers. Maybe *everybody* saw the sky open, but the Gospel use a singular verb form for some reason.

A third interpretation is that the whole thing is fictional and must be understood as literary fiction, but the argument for that seemed to be completely indecipherable to me. It may have relied on something that requires a Master of Fine Arts.

I think it's possible to leave aside the issue of fact and fiction so that we can focus on the best way to translate the text. Is the form of "he saw" meant to indicate that *only* one person saw?

[Ankh]

Greetings yourfriendrick,

I have encountered a reading of the Gospel which seemed perversely wrong to me.

Here is the original Greek:

10
καὶ ε�θὺς ἀναβαίνων �κ τοῦ ὕδατος εἶδεν σχιζομένους τοὺς ο��ανοὺς καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα ὡς πε�ιστε�ὰν καταβαῖνον εἰς α�τόν:
11
καὶ φωνὴ �γένετο �κ τῶν ο��ανῶν, Σὺ εἶ � υἱός μου � ἀγαπητός, �ν σοὶ ε�δόκησα.
12
Καὶ ε�θὺς τὸ πνεῦμα α�τὸν �κβάλλει εἰς τὴν ἔ�ημον.
13
καὶ ἦν �ν τῇ ��ήμῳ τεσσε�άκοντα ἡμέ�ας πει�αζόμενος ὑπὸ τοῦ Σατανᾶ, καὶ ἦν μετὰ τῶν θη�ίων, καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι διηκόνουν α�τῷ.


First off: notice εἶδεν means "he saw." As in, just Jesus saw, not everybody saw, because it was a vision, not a physical event. Then a string of "and" connectors indicates that the voice was part of Jesus' vision, not a physical voice.

Just looking at the Greek as an amateur scholar, it seems indisputable to me that "he saw" is singular. That means that Jesus saw the heavens open, and no one else saw it. That means that the Bible is describing a visionary event, not something physical that could be seen by any eye-witness. That's *my* interpretation.

However, another interpretation would be that something literally happened with the sky, something was visible and tangible to all onlookers. Maybe *everybody* saw the sky open, but the Gospel use a singular verb form for some reason.

A third interpretation is that the whole thing is fictional and must be understood as literary fiction, but the argument for that seemed to be completely indecipherable to me. It may have relied on something that requires a Master of Fine Arts.

I think it's possible to leave aside the issue of fact and fiction so that we can focus on the best way to translate the text. Is the form of "he saw" meant to indicate that *only* one person saw?

Yourfriendrick, if we look over in John's gospel notice what John the Baptist says in 1:32-33,

"Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.�

John saw the spirit descend down from heaven and remain on Jesus. There is no mention he heard a voice from heaven at the time of Jesus' baptism, but apparently he saw a visual descending of the spirit. So I would conclude, based upon the testimony of John 1:32, that John also saw.

Ankh

[yourfriendrick]

Greetings yourfriendrick,
...

Yourfriendrick, if we look over in John's gospel notice what John the Baptist says in 1:32-33,

"Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.�

John saw the spirit descend down from heaven and remain on Jesus. There is no mention he heard a voice from heaven at the time of Jesus' baptism, but apparently he saw a visual descending of the spirit. So I would conclude, based upon the testimony of John 1:32, that John also saw.

Ankh

Great point.

The Gospel of John lends a lot more depth to the story. I should have mentioned that my original text was from Mark, Chapter 1:

The conventional English translation would be:
10: And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove;

So, yes, the Gospel of John lends additional information, but I think the Greek verb is just talking about Jesus' sight of the heavens opening and the dove etc.

Now, it would be interesting if John and Jesus could see these phenomena but ordinary on-lookers could not.

Then again, "heavens opening" could mean a lot of things, and doves are not very miraculous, but mysterious voices out of nowhere are pretty hard to explain.

So, I guess I should ask - operating just from the Gospel of Mark, was this a supernatural event?

(I think we agree that if we factor in John the Baptist's testimony from the Gospel of John, it definitely appears to be a supernatural event.)

[Ankh]

Greetings rick,

Great point.

The Gospel of John lends a lot more depth to the story. I should have mentioned that my original text was from Mark, Chapter 1:

The conventional English translation would be:
10: And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove;

So, yes, the Gospel of John lends additional information, but I think the Greek verb is just talking about Jesus' sight of the heavens opening and the dove etc.

Now, it would be interesting if John and Jesus could see these phenomena but ordinary on-lookers could not.

Then again, "heavens opening" could mean a lot of things, and doves are not very miraculous, but mysterious voices out of nowhere are pretty hard to explain.

So, I guess I should ask - operating just from the Gospel of Mark, was this a supernatural event?

(I think we agree that if we factor in John the Baptist's testimony from the Gospel of John, it definitely appears to be a supernatural event.)

Yes, especially if we factor in that only Jesus saw the "heavens opened" unto him...

"And having been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water. And, behold! The heavens were opened to him, and He saw the Spirit of God coming down as a dove, and coming upon him" (Matt 3:16)

"And going up from the water, immediately He saw the heavens being torn, and the Spirit coming down as a dove upon him" (Mark 1:10)

while John the Baptist (along with Jesus) only saw the Spirit coming down out of heaven.

"And John witnessed, saying, I have seen the Spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and He abode on Him." (John 1:32)

Good Evening

Ankh

[yourfriendrick]

"And going up from the water, immediately He saw the heavens being torn, and the Spirit coming down as a dove upon him" (Mark 1:10)

while John the Baptist (along with Jesus) only saw the Spirit coming down out of heaven.

"And John witnessed, saying, I have seen the Spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and He abode on Him." (John 1:32)

Okay, so in Mark, Ithink the key phrase is:

σχιζομένους τοὺς ο��ανοὺς καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα

We can't translate pneuma as "breath" - nobody sees the breath of a dove, even if it's very cold outside.

So somehow Jesus saw the σχιζομένους τοὺς ο��ανοὺς but John also saw the πνεῦμα. Just about everybody will translate πνεῦμα as "spirit," even though it's hard to figure out just what "spirit" means.

Does anyone have a definitive explanation of how "opening up" of the heavens relates to seeing the "spirit"?

I guess the first step would be to check a biblical concordance for other usages of the word σχιζομένους.

[S-word]

I have encountered a reading of the Gospel which seemed perversely wrong to me.

Here is the original Greek:

10
καὶ ε�θὺς ἀναβαίνων �κ τοῦ ὕδατος εἶδεν σχιζομένους τοὺς ο��ανοὺς καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα ὡς πε�ιστε�ὰν καταβαῖνον εἰς α�τόν:
11
καὶ φωνὴ �γένετο �κ τῶν ο��ανῶν, Σὺ εἶ � υἱός μου � ἀγαπητός, �ν σοὶ ε�δόκησα.
12
Καὶ ε�θὺς τὸ πνεῦμα α�τὸν �κβάλλει εἰς τὴν ἔ�ημον.
13
καὶ ἦν �ν τῇ ��ήμῳ τεσσε�άκοντα ἡμέ�ας πει�αζόμενος ὑπὸ τοῦ Σατανᾶ, καὶ ἦν μετὰ τῶν θη�ίων, καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι διηκόνουν α�τῷ.

First off: notice εἶδεν means "he saw." As in, just Jesus saw, not everybody saw, because it was a vision, not a physical event. Then a string of "and" connectors indicates that the voice was part of Jesus' vision, not a physical voice.

Just looking at the Greek as an amateur scholar, it seems indisputable to me that "he saw" is singular. That means that Jesus saw the heavens open, and no one else saw it. That means that the Bible is describing a visionary event, not something physical that could be seen by any eye-witness. That's *my* interpretation.

However, another interpretation would be that something literally happened with the sky, something was visible and tangible to all onlookers. Maybe *everybody* saw the sky open, but the Gospel use a singular verb form for some reason.

A third interpretation is that the whole thing is fictional and must be understood as literary fiction, but the argument for that seemed to be completely indecipherable to me. It may have relied on something that requires a Master of Fine Arts.

I think it's possible to leave aside the issue of fact and fiction so that we can focus on the best way to translate the text. Is the form of "he saw" meant to indicate that *only* one person saw?

How many witnessed the baptism of Jesus in the Jordon in the desert? According to scripture the only two mentioned at that baptism were Jesus and his second cousin John. Now you may suppose that there were others present, but that would simply be supposition on your part, there is no biblical evidence of any others present.

Luke states that after all the people, had been baptised, Jesus then came along to be baptised. I say that it was after all the people that had been baptised had left the vircinity, Jesus came to John who was then alone. You may say that the people who had been baptised previously were still hanging around as Jesus was being baptised, but this would be nothing but supposition on both our parts.

The fact that Mark say, "HE, Jesus" saw the spirit descend as a dove, which according to scripture, "HE" did, does not preclude John from also having seen the vision at that time, which John says to Philip and Andrew while at Bethany, that he had witnessed when he had previously baptised Jesus while in the desert some 40 or more days earlier.

If I were to say that "YOU" saw the car that hit you, I am not precluding someone else who was with you at that time and had seen the car also.