Lazarus and the rich man – parable or actual event?

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puddleglum
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Lazarus and the rich man – parable or actual event?

Post #1

Post by puddleglum »

In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus tells the story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus and describes how they lived in this life and what their circumstances were after they died.
There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.

The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out,�‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.

But Abraham said, “Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.�

And he said, “Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.�

But Abraham said, “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.� And he said, “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.�

He said to him, “If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.�
This story follows a group of parables and there is much disagreement as to whether this in another parable or a record of something that actually happened.

To answer this question we need to look at exactly what a parable is. Luke 15:3-7 records a story by Jesus which he clearly identified as a parable.
So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Let’s look at exactly what Jesus did here. He told a story about a shepherd and a lost sheep. This was something the people were familiar with because they lived in a culture in which being a shepherd was a common occupation. Then he showed how this everyday event which they could see was like a heavenly event which they couldn’t see directly; the rejoicing by the shepherd was like the rejoicing that takes place in heaven when a sinner repents. A parable illustrates a spiritual truth by comparing it with something with which the listeners were familiar.

But does the story of Lazarus and the rich man follow this pattern? It begins by describing a rich man and a beggar who was at his gate seeking help. This was no doubt the sort of thing his listeners had seen. But Jesus doesn’t make any comparison between this situation and something in heaven. Instead he continues the story by telling how the two men died and what their circumstances were after death. In addition, two of the people in the parable, Lazarus and Abraham, are named, and we know for certain that Abraham was a real person. These departures from the usual pattern of parables show that this wasn’t a parable but an account of something that really happened.

This story is the plainest description found in the Bible of what happens after death. We know that at death the body completely ceases to function but we find here that the same thing isn’t true of the soul. It is separated from the body but still continues to function in the same way it did while still in the body.

In the Old Testament there are many references to a place called Sheol which is the place everyone went after death. Both the good and the bad went there. This is the same place as Hades, which is where the rich man ended up. Since he was able to see and speak to Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, but in a different part. Abraham said there was a chasm between the place they were and the place the rich man was, so there was a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous even though they were in the same place.

The unsaved still go to Hades immediately after they die but that is no longer true of the saved. The death of Jesus has brought about a change in what happens to them. Jesus told the thief who repented that he would be in Paradise with him that same day. We learn from 2 Corinthians 12:1-3 that Paradise is in the third heaven.
must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
Ephesians 4:8-10 says,
Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.� (In saying, “He ascended,� what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
This shows that between his death and resurrection Jesus descended into Hades and took out all the righteous dead and took them to Paradise. Now whenever a believer dies his soul goes immediately to be with Jesus.

Even the unsaved won’t stay in Hades forever. Revelation 20 contains a description of the final judgment, when all those who are lost will be punished for eternity by being thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15 says,
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

Chabalala
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Post #2

Post by Chabalala »

I believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a real story.
Jesus never mentioned someone by name when He told a parable.
And when He did tell a parable, He always opened up by saying something like "Now here is a parable" or "Listen to this parable"

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Post #3

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

Chabalala wrote: I believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a real story.
Jesus never mentioned someone by name when He told a parable.
And when He did tell a parable, He always opened up by saying something like "Now here is a parable" or "Listen to this parable"
Immediately before the story of Lazarus and the rich man is the story of the shrewd manager. (Ref) Although generally taken to be a parable, it is not introduced by Jesus as being one. The references to Lazarus by name may simply be to allow him to be referred to by the characters in the story in the third person, which is less awkward sounding than having them call him “the beggar�.

Examples:

Luke 16:24 …‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue…

Luke 16:25 …‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

Luke 16:27 …‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family…

Imagine how clumsy and even demeaning it would sound if Lazarus were constantly called “the beggar� instead of by name.
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

Chabalala
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Post #4

Post by Chabalala »

Well, whether it's a parable or a real event, there is certainly a lot to be learned from that passage. Some observations are:

1. Hell is indeed a place of flame, not just "separation from God" or other washed up description that some people come up with these days.

2. Once in Hell, the rich man doesn't complain about the fact that he's there. He presumably understands why he is there.

3. "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
There was an article on the internet few weeks ago about a person either having a near-death experience or coming back from the dead (I can't remember exactly) and telling his doctor that heaven exists. Now I'm not saying he really did die and resurrect or anything, but it reminded me of this passage. So WHAT IF he really did die and come back to life and gave his testimony about afterlife? Would it make a difference to an Atheist? Probably not...probably not, just as Abraham predicted here. Their problem is not of the mind, but of heart.

4. This story is BEFORE crucifixion. An atheist in some forum once said that if heaven exists, believing in Jesus would not be a requirement, because Lazarus didn't believe in Jesus in this story. This story, parable or real, was pre-crucifixion. It was a completely different system back then.

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Post #5

Post by The Tongue »

Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are both translated as "Hell," But have nothing whatsoever to do with "Genenna" the eternal lake of sulfur and fire in which the aborted malformed potential children of God (Spirits) suffer the second death, which is that of the malformed and twisted mind/spirit that had developed within their physical bodies that had been returned to the universal elements from which they were created, which was their first death.

Sheol and Hades, is simply the abode of the dead where they await the great day of the separation of those souls whose spirit who inherit the glorious bodies of Brilliant and blinding light, will enter the higher dimension, from those souls which will be cast back into the refining fires of the physical world, where those souls will be given a new body and a new mind/spirit.

The great gulf between the righteous dead and the unrighteous disembodied spirits, can be found in the writings of Enoch the righteous, which we will not bother about here.

But in Isaiah 57: 1-2; it is written “Good people die, and no one understands or even cares. But when they die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death.�

So then, If those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death, then there awaits another state of terrible mental/spiritual anguish for those who do not lead good lives, and this we see in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Our ancestral father Enoch the anointed successor to the throne of Godhead to the body of mankind, who rose from the baptismal waters of the earth in the body of post-flood mankind, into which baptismal waters, had been submerged the body of Adam, the most high in the creation and lord of creatures, our indwelling living ancestral Father and Godhead, "ENOCH" ascended to the ends of time within the body of mankind, evolving on “ALL� the spirits of his descendants.

It was the living spirit of Enoch within Noah, which rose from the baptismal waters of the earth and ascended to the ends of time, evolving on the spirits of the body of post-flood mankind which were gathered to him.

He is the only man to have witnessed the end of all things, when the universal elements burned up and fell as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and dept in the Great Abyss/Black Hole, which Enoch describes as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which there was nothing, not even the firmament=space in which the heavens and the earth had existed, which of course included himself, the Supreme Personality of the Most High in the creation.

To equate the man Enoch, who was the chosen cornerstone to which the spirits of man were united in his evolution to the ends of all things, with the glorious simulacrum (The sin offering that is prepared for us by God) who dies in the process of involution for our salvation, would be like equating mankind with the organic molecules in the primeval sludge pools of organic material of the junior earth from which mankind had evolved.

It was He, “The Light of Man� who came down from the heights of time, who Abraham claimed as his God.

When Abraham was born, not one of his ten ancestors had died and had been gathered to the living and evolving spirit of Enoch our indwelling Father. Abraham was true to who He was, to see Abraham, was to see the Man Enoch as he was in those days.

When the “Son of Man,� descended through time and was chosen by Abraham as his God, “Who I Am,� said to Abraham, “In blessing, I will bless you, and in multiplying (Bearing sons) I will multiply you.

From that day onward, it was only the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for any sins or mistakes that they had made in their lives, who were judged and separated from the unrighteous dead, and were gathered to the evolving spirit within the bosom of Abraham.

Isaiah 57: 1; “Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they (Good People) die, no calamity can harm them. Those who lead good lives, find peace and rest in death.�

If those who live good lives find peace and rest in death, then there awaits a state of fearful expectation for those who lead wicked lives, as described by Jesus in his revelation of “Lazarus and the rich man.�

After the evolving spirit in man, had remained within the inner dimension that co-exists within this visible three dimensional body, being made perfect through suffering for three days, or rather three periods of One thousand years, he was made manifest as the man Jesus, the first born of the new androgynous body of “The Son of Man,� who ceases to be an individual entity, when all the brothers of Jesus are filled with his spirit also.

Jesus, who was one with his indwelling evolving spirit within the body of mankind, who was the only man to have been given the lot of eternal LIFE, and who was the evolved compilation of all the righteous spirits over whom the second death had no power, could not die.

John 14: 30; “I cannot talk to you much longer for (Death) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know I love the Father, that is why I do all that he commands of me.�

Although Jesus, the duplication of his indwelling evolving righteous ancestral spirit, was offered up as our sacrifice, like Isaac the son of God’s promise who, like Jesus, was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, it was not he who died.

As Jesus on the cross gave up his spirit, he cried out, “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me, and at that very moment, the graves of all those spirits, who had been judged after paying the blood price for their inherited sin and over whom death had no more power, were opened, and three days later, they entered into the holy city of Jerusalem and showed themselves as the risen Christ, “The Anointed One� who revealed himself to us through his obedient servant Jesus.

Like the man Enoch, who was reborn on earth in his chosen host body, they, who are of the body of Christ, are soon to choose their earthly successors in which to be reborn on earth, where they of the first resurrection, will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and they shall rule as kings on this earth for a thousand years.

It is “The Day of the Lord� The great seventh Day Sabbath, that the body of the anointed one which is reborn on earth in their chosen host bodies, will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and rule for a thousand years.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; “And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: ‘On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die.’ For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it.�

1 Peter 4: 6; That is why The Good News was preached to the dead; to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; It was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they might live as God lives.

And that is, by gathering to themselves the spirits of good people who fall asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes that they had made, until they had gathered the required number that would be the ransom price for their chosen earthly host body in which they can be reborn on earth.

From the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; “And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (Who I Am,) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.�

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