God chose them, but why and what went wrong?

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justme2
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God chose them, but why and what went wrong?

Post #1

Post by justme2 »

WHY THEY WERE CHOSEN

(Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

(Deu 7:7 KJV) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

(Deu 7:12 KJV) Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he swore unto thy fathers:

(Deu 7:13 KJV) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kin, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God

They were chosen to show us the way, to show us how to treat the stranger, how to be compassionate and loving to your neighbor and by doing so peace would envelope the world.

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow

(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Jer 14:8 KJV) O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.

(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

NOTE: The above occurred in 1947ad

(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

(Ezekiel 21:32 (ASV) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I, Jehovah, have spoken it.

..According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

The truth will set you free
:study:

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ttruscott
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Re: God chose them, but why and what went wrong?

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Post by ttruscott »

justme2 wrote: WHY THEY WERE CHOSEN

(Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
The one word that sums up all the different ways HE has of referring to HIS people is "the elect"...

What went wrong is that the church turned from a merit based election to unconditional election making a cesspit of Christian theology...


Here's some fodder from the mill:

Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.

From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore� means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our created spirit life. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, as Rom 8:29 just said predestination means and as per Matthew 7:21–23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and knowing about has no love. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain, He never knew them.

[Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.] This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew� is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved�.

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?

1. Merit based Election before Creation?
The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in humans, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:
Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.


Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before life" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.

2. Election to Damnation before Creation Serves HIS Purpose?

Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because this is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone. The explanation goes something like this:

The loved ones' eternal joy is directly proportional to their knowledge, appreciation, of GOD and the wonderfulness of their salvation. Therefore an increase of good comes forth from the eternal damnation of some persons for by their damnation, that is, the outcome of Adam's decision to sin, and HIS "before life" decision not to love these persons, two types of eternal blessings supposedly occur for the rest.

First, a fuller appreciation of several of God's attributes is made possible, which opportunity wouldn't be possible if all lived forever, that is, if HE "before life" loved them all. These attributes are usually said to be HIS justness (retribution / wrath) holiness and omnipotence.

Secondly, the truth regarding the elects' end apart from Christ's salvation is made fully known, which full knowledge makes possible the fuller appreciation of HIS salvation, for this salvation (hence, HIS mercy too) would not be so fully appreciated without the graphic depiction of both ends.

Others even go so far as to say that their damnation is absolutely necessary in order that the purpose of GOD be able to be fulfilled by HIS elect, and they offer this explanation:

In order to live in eternity with GOD, we must live fully in the truth, which necessity necessitates having a perfect appreciation of GOD's attributes and HIS salvation, and that this perfect appreciation by HIS elect creatures is made possible first, only through witnessing HIS triumph over and judgement upon HIS enemies, and second, only when HIS perfection and our life in Christ are contrasted with the complete imperfections of the damned and the end we would have had, had HE not saved us.

Now, these are very hard positions to hold, for they fail on many accounts.

First, they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.

Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential.

In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless [and the more sinful (or sick) the better].

Third, they both fail to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than would be the damnation of but one, since it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation / perfection and not the quantity of persons therein.

Fourthly, they both put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD.

Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge/forelove not including everyone can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD does it particularly, we are left with but two conclusions:

We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. [Aside: as I understand it, this is Calvin's failure to understand this doctrine correctly.] GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to preconception theology, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-human life approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before the creation of the physical universe) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

Therein is the reason why HE loved some "before this life" and why HE did not love the rest.

Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose by choosing to sin the unforgivable sin and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose; some willingly, (angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious (by means of election) to them (His fallen church). Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the evil ones who were condemend already for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect.


Now, I ask you, which doctrine is the more scriptural and reasonable and compatible with the attributes of GOD?


2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

This Scripture does not prove that we existed before our conception as humans. The reason I am including it is that I believe that it does not invalidate preconception theology, and I am sure a lot of people will think that it and others like it do.

May I submit that when the Scriptures speak of works in relation to our election, they are referring to only our works after we're born, ie, no one was elected on account of any works they would do in this life as a sinner.

Now, if there is anyone who would like to disagree with me on this and would like to debate whether Paul intended that our pre- human life works were also to be included in the works that were excluded as part of the basis of GOD's election, I would be very interested in seeing your argument. I suppose this isn't necessary, but I would like to (first) point out that any such argument must admit to our pre-conception existence.

The second thing I would like to point out is that we were called according to HIS purpose. This must mean so that we could fulfil HIS purpose for us.

But if this is so, then there must be an uncoerced choice on our part if we are ever to have the possibility of glorifying GOD. His purpose for us necessitates a free will choice to join that purpose or it is a tape recorder, Stepford wife, type of agreement.

Therefore I say that being called according to HIS purpose and grace is almost exactly the same as saying, being called in accord with our uncoerced choice and HIS covenant, and if making that choice is a work, since earthly works are out, then it is the same as saying, Being called in accord with a preconception work and HIS gracious covenant to those who per-fore-med that work.

The third thing I would like to point out is that the angels are elected too. 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels...

Angels are a lot different than men (at least, that is what many believe), ie, they do not have what is usually called “racial solidarity�. This means that they have to make all their own choices. No one else can make them for them and they cannot be held accountable for someone else's evil choices.

In other words, Adam's choices do not affect them at all (supposedly). Perhaps you would like to tell me on what basis GOD elected only some of them?

If it was not on the basis of their individual choices, then they had to be elected before the satanic rebellion, at least. But if GOD's election took place before the satanic rebellion, would this not lead us into the pretty incredulous situation of some unblemished creatures being unjustly unpredestined to remain in heaven, (or: predestined for Hell)?

And what reasonable basis can we put forward for this situation other than HE simply did not want them to be with HIM forever? This situation does not look too good, does it?

Well then, what if no one was elected before the rebellion, that is, what if GOD's election took place after the rebellion? Then GOD's election took place after they all had made an eternal choice, and presumably that choice would be taken into account when GOD was doing HIS electing. It would have to be if HE was holy and just.

Now, the main thing I am trying to bring out with all of this is that when we just begin to consider the election of angels, we run into some pretty unreasonable implications if we leave out their choice as being a part of the basis of their election, and the only other real alternative necessitates that we accept that their eternal choice was at least a part of the basis of their election.

Well, if you are willing to accept the possibility of their choice / works being a part of the basis of their election, why can that not be a part of the basis of ours too?

May I submit that the only thing going against that possibility is the presupposition that Paul, in 2 Timothy 1:9 is excluding all our works, and I have to admit, that is what it seems to say, that is, what it seems to say until we look at Paul's definition of elective works in

Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth.

Now, I do not think that I will get much argument when I say that the works of 2 Timothy 1:9 are the same works as are mentioned in this verse in Romans. In other words, Paul defines works the same in both verses. And just how does he define works? Well, in Romans, Paul is referring to Genesis 25:22 And the children struggled together within her. The children are Jacob and Esau, and Paul says that at the time of GOD's statement to Rebecca, to the effect that the elder shall serve the younger, that neither of them had done any good or evil (works).

But the reason Rebecca had prayed to GOD was that she was having such a hard time of it because Jacob and Esau were fighting so much in the womb*. Now, if they were fighting, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works, since it is impossible that both were following the Holy Spirit in their struggles with each other. So, although it is possible that neither was being good, it is impossible that neither was being evil.

* The word is not to jostle or struggle or to wrestle but to try to crush each other to pieces! Why tame down this word? To tame down their being sinful in the womb which makes Paul, on the surface, to be a liar. Do you think he knew this quirk of logical analysis would some day come to light and put it in as a testimony to their evil pre-human conception?

Well now, we either have a blatant contradiction and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election.

In fact, by his omission of their pre-birth works in those works that are excluded as being a part of the basis of our election, he must be inferring that some pre-birth works have something to do with it. To say this all another way, what we have here in Romans is a classic example of a Scripture with some missing words, that is, what Paul is really saying is, neither having done any good or evil works (on the post-birth side of the womb) that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works (done on the post-birth side of the womb) but of HIM that calleth (when one is on the post-birth side of the womb).

Thus we can see that Paul did not exclude our pre-human birth works from being a part of the basis of our election.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #3

Post by justme2 »

Just remember, the "biblical verses" we read today are translations of translations with a slight twist that favors the translator's view of what he/she reads.

My advice is to enjoy the verses that make you feel good and puts a smile on your face and those verses that seem contrary to the Lord's moral values are most likely not "His" words and therefore you are free to dis-guard them as you would dis-guard used toilet paper.

Just remember to flush afterwords
just a suggestion :study:

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Post #4

Post by ttruscott »

justme2 wrote: Just remember, the "biblical verses" we read today are translations of translations with a slight twist that favors the translator's view of what he/she reads.

My advice is to enjoy the verses that make you feel good and puts a smile on your face and those verses that seem contrary to the Lord's moral values are most likely not "His" words and therefore you are free to dis-guard them as you would dis-guard used toilet paper.

Just remember to flush afterwords
just a suggestion :study:

You ask what went wrong and I put some time and effort into answering you and you writit off as so much drek?? ok....
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

justme2
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Post #5

Post by justme2 »

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]


"You ask what went wrong and I put some time and effort into answering you and you writit off as so much drek?? ok...".

ttruscott, please forgive me O:)

justme2
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Ttruscott, I await your response

Post #6

Post by justme2 »

Ttruscott, I admit that I had not read your entire post before making mine & again I ask for your forgiveness for my shallow response. I went back and read your post.

Having said that, and having the utmost respect for your biblical insight I want you to evaluate the following verses and tell me in your words what these verses mean to you. Now just keep in mind that this is in reference as to why they were chosen in the first place. Personally, I believe they were chosen to set an example and, in that context, they failed to do so but my views are incidental, yours matter; so let it fly----

(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

Ttruscott, are they now repeating the above verse once again-?

(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.

(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

In my view this final gathering occurred in 1947ad

(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

(Ezekiel 21:32 (ASV) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I, Jehovah, have spoken it.


“According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year."

Ttruscott, I await your response

:study:

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ttruscott
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Re: Ttruscott, I await your response

Post #7

Post by ttruscott »

justme2 wrote: Ttruscott, I admit that I had not read your entire post before making mine & again I ask for your forgiveness for my shallow response. I went back and read your post.

Having said that, and having the utmost respect for your biblical insight I want you to evaluate the following verses and tell me in your words what these verses mean to you.
On the good faith that you will tell me what you think about the implications of what happened in Rebeccah's womb I'll answer your question.

The scenario: God chooses a people. They fail HIM. HE chastises them, then HE brings them home. This happened with Adam and Eve. It happened with Israel. It happened to the kings. It will or is happening to the Church.

All these earthly scenarios are merely the earthly renditions of the story of HIS elect, the ones HE chose to be HIS heavenly bride but who failed to fulfill the necessities to be HIS bride. The story of the sinful but good seed is the same story in a nutshell and so is the prodigal son.

The story is repeated over and over in different metaphor as the impulse to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption. The lesson is always the same: I chose you, you failed me so after dire warnings I punished you so your repentance will lead to a reconciliation.

It only gets complicated because we must live together with the tares, those condemned already, the nations, and their story gets caught up as part of our metaphor as that which leads us astray so we break faith with HIM when tested. Everyone has a reason why they broke faith with their self chosen GOD. Eve (faithful) followed the serpent (unfaithful) into rebellion. Adam (elect) did not follow the serpent (non-elect) but did follow Eve (sinful elect) into sin. These real life events are also metaphors for our spiritual lives; Egypt lured the sons of Israel, the nations lured the tribes and the kings and false doctrine has lured the Church.

This reminds us that when* HE made HIS claims to everyone created in HIS image to be our GOD that HE elected to heaven those who put their faith in HIS claims being true and condemned those who rejected HIS claims as the lies of a false god who then led some of HIS elect astry over the call for their judgement which had to be postponed when the elect ones followed them into sin.

*The when of our choices that fixed for eternity our fates in relation to YHWH were long before the creation of the physical world, a creation we saw, Job 38:7 with Rom 1:20.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: God chose them, but why and what went wrong?

Post #8

Post by DPMartin »

[Replying to post 1 by justme2]

they where chosen because God promised and loved Abraham, who was also chosen seeing Abraham was the tenth gen. after Noah that was the tenth gen after Adam.

and nothing went wrong, everything that has happened to the children of Israel, even to day is a result of the agreement, or covenant or law, Torah, of which the Almighty can enforce and has enforced.

Israel didn't want to return to the land given them after the world Zionist organization called for the return science 1897 for 40 years. so the Nazis came into power in a defeated nation. and showed them they were not better off where they were. after WWII they were more then glad to return.

don't believe that? read the prophets and the Lord's remarks about to the north (that would be to the north of Jerusalem. which is the area which they were persecuted. from France to Moscow)

so, nothing went wrong, everything is according to God's Word.

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