Indoctrination in Islam, continued..

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Abdelrahman
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Indoctrination in Islam, continued..

Post by Abdelrahman »

This is a continued message from the thread:

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/ ... 45#1008245
"Now son/daughter, don't fret over them, they deserve eternal torment in hell." There is no good in these teachings.�
Yes I agree. Muslims tend to stay away from saying whether someone specific deserves hell or not since we believe guidance comes from God Almighty and He can take it away from us at any point. I’m sure many people have experienced periods of low and high faith during their lifetimes and so we’re not supposed to say whether someone specific is going to hell or not, that is up to God not us. We know that certain ‘actions’ can lead to hell fire like the murdering of innocents, but I cannot say ‘John’ is going to hell. That is forbidden in our religion. Only God knows who’s going where.
“And there it is. One group disagreeing with the other about what a god wants. The disagreement is so strong that some in both groups feel justified in indoctrinating their children that the others that they disagree with deserve a hell.
(Not all members of these religions do this of course, just addressing those that do, like the home I was raised in).�
We’re told in the Qur’an:
"Surely the believers and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians – whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the last day and does good deeds – shall have their reward with their Lord and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve." - The Holy Qur'an [2:163]
So here God is saying even the Christians who do not associate with God another, will have their reward with God. So again you can see that we aren’t really allowed to say who’s going to hell or not. As a Muslim, I truly wish that everyone gets guided.
“That was my claim and I was comparing that claim to those of other religions that are also impressed with their holy book.

<snipped examples of things that impress you>�
Please check my other thread! (https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/ ... hp?t=37080) I only go over a few of the examples that impress me but there are hundreds. I really really urge you just please look for me. I promise it’s not like anything you’ve seen before.
“Addressed. Perhaps you would acknowledge the things the two groups do disagree on. For example, ask a Christian if Mohammed was a prophet for a God named Allah. Ask a Christian if a Muslim deserves to go to heaven or hell.
These disagreements are what I'm addressing, not generic heaven/hell ideas.�
Interestingly enough, Allah is just the name of God in Arabic. If you open an Arabic translation of the Bible you will find the word ‘Allah’ in there many many times. It’s just these ‘disagreements’ are usually misunderstood. If more people knew that the Bible contained the word Allah you wouldn’t see people making fun of the name like it was a separate God. When you burn posters and papers with Allah written on them you are simply just burning the universal word for God in Arabic.

And also I wish more people read about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), also a man greatly misunderstood. This will probably shock you, but here is a letter dictated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a covenant to the Christian nation from the Muslims, to be held for all of time:
“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).�

English translation from ‘Muslim History: 570 – 1950 C.E.’ by Dr. A. Zahoor and Dr. Z. Haq, ZMD Corporation. P.O. Box 8231 – Gaithersburg, MD 20898-8231 – Copyright Akram Zahoor 2000. P. 167
Now how much bloodshed do you think would have been prevented if Muslims and Christians had held to this covenant. This is what the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught us, and yet people think of him as the most barbaric man alive – grossly far from reality.
“Clearly it doesn't at least for most. See the crusades.
Pope Urban denigrated the Muslims, exaggerating stories of their anti-Christian acts, and promised absolution and remission of sins for all who died in the service of Christ.
Clearly, the disagreement between the two religions is not one of there being a heaven or a hell that can justify violence, but one where parents/pastors/priests/imams/etc... are telling their followers that the others deserve death or hell.�
You are right, sadly enough. But if the Christian religion itself condemns the crusades, and the Muslim faith itself condemns the loss of innocent life, then how are we to blame the religion for the followers’ actions? The religion, on both sides, clearly condemns violence. Humans are humans at the end of the day, and greed and power is a thirst many are seeking to quench.
“And Allah guideth not those who reject faith.
— Sura Al-Baqara, v. 264
In the Quran, the term kafir is first applied to the unbelieving Meccans, and their attempts to refute and revile Muhammad. Later, Muslims are ordered to keep apart from them, defend themselves from their attacks, and finally take the offensive against them.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Qur%27an_ ... Muslims�
I am glad you brought this up, because this needs to be cleared. You must understand the context of the verses in question. The followers of Muhammad (pbuh) were initially in Mecca, made up of mostly the poor and some slaves as well as some regular people. They were persecuted, attacked and tortured for claiming to be Muslims. God did not tell them to fight back yet. These Muslims were driven out of their homes and so the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) made the migration to Madinah with his followers where he was welcomed with open hands

Then the following verse was revealed:
“…expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them….� – The Holy Qur’an [2:191]
Basically saying, go get your homes back. Many of the Meccans had been displaced from their homes and left to Medinah with the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). God now gave them the order to expel them from where they expelled you – get back your stuff basically. And it specifically says, do not fight them until they fight you and if they do fight you then fight back and kill them.

This is basically a commandment telling the Muslims to go back get their stuff and do not fight anyone unless they fight you. This is Islam. Not go kill innocent people in the name of God. We even have rules to War (can't cut down trees etc..) and once the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) left a squadron of soldiers to guard a birds nest out of fear that the army would trample on it when marching. A birds nest man.
“Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.� – The Holy Qur’an [5:32]
“Agreed, this is also an issue. One not so easily solved though, unlike parents not telling their children that the 'others' deserve hell. The specific issue I'm referring to.

< more snipped, mainly for having my agreement >�
Definitely a tough one, but I’m hopeful :)
“Thank you for your response!�
Much love Clownboat!!

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Clownboat
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Re: Indoctrination in Islam, continued..

Post by Clownboat »

Abdelrahman wrote:
This is a continued message from the thread:
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/ ... 45#1008245
"Now son/daughter, don't fret over them, they deserve eternal torment in hell." There is no good in these teachings.�
Yes I agree. Muslims tend to stay away from saying whether someone specific deserves hell or not since we believe guidance comes from God Almighty and He can take it away from us at any point. I’m sure many people have experienced periods of low and high faith during their lifetimes and so we’re not supposed to say whether someone specific is going to hell or not, that is up to God not us. We know that certain ‘actions’ can lead to hell fire like the murdering of innocents, but I cannot say ‘John’ is going to hell. That is forbidden in our religion. Only God knows who’s going where.
Chrisitians are also not suppose to judge. Doesn't stop the judging though. Let me give you an example:
When I was a child, 'John' (generic example) was not going to hell.
Atheists for example in general (not a John) deserved hell for rejecting god. Same was claimed for Muslims and all others religions. They reject the one true god and therefore deserve enternal torment in hell.
Do those that reject Allah not deserve the same? (This is a generic question, therefore you are not judging anyone in specific). This is how Christians get around their judging. Acknowledge that a certain group deserves something (a hell in this case). Then all that is required is to lump outsiders into said group.
There is only one true God afterall (so many proclaim). The problem is that too many religions claim to have it. If I do, then you don't.
So here God is saying even the Christians who do not associate with God another, will have their reward with God. So again you can see that we aren’t really allowed to say who’s going to hell or not. As a Muslim, I truly wish that everyone gets guided.
Would not most infidels (not someone in specific) deserve to go to hell?
in·fi·del
- a person who does not believe in religion or who adheres to a religion other than one's own.
- adhering to a religion other than one's own.
“Addressed. Perhaps you would acknowledge the things the two groups do disagree on. For example, ask a Christian if Mohammed was a prophet for a God named Allah. Ask a Christian if a Muslim deserves to go to heaven or hell.
These disagreements are what I'm addressing, not generic heaven/hell ideas.�
Interestingly enough, Allah is just the name of God in Arabic.
God concepts throughout all time and all civilizations had all sorts of names for the gods. Anyone that decides to believe that they follow the only true god concept rather than acknowledging that all civilizations have their own god concepts also adds to the division.

We are both humans sharing this planet, this is a truth. That anyones god concept is more true than anyone elses god concept is divisive. Those that add in teachings about evils inflicted on those that don't adhere to the specific god concept in question adds to the division.
If you open an Arabic translation of the Bible you will find the word ‘Allah’ in there many many times. It’s just these ‘disagreements’ are usually misunderstood. If more people knew that the Bible contained the word Allah you wouldn’t see people making fun of the name like it was a separate God. When you burn posters and papers with Allah written on them you are simply just burning the universal word for God in Arabic.
And if all god concepts are false, and not all except for a persons favorite god concept, then what you speak of above goes away. Seems more humane and reasonable then arguing about which god is true IMO.
And also I wish more people read about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), also a man greatly misunderstood.
This is not a surprise and is an expected result of someone religiously devout. Not Muhammad specifically of course, the hero (or whatever we would call it) of their religion. Christians want you to know their Christ, the son of the One True God. (Not the Muslim version mind you).
“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
It is important to note that I have not claimed that all Christians or Muslims tell their children that there are those that deserve heaven/hell.
If you are not one of them, good on you. I'm discussing those that do and addressing that it is divisive and can lead to violence and bloodshed.

< snipped the covenant >
Now how much bloodshed do you think would have been prevented if Muslims and Christians had held to this covenant.
Much likely. Thank you for acknowledging that there are those that don't. Those are the ones I'm addressing with my statement.
This is what the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught us, and yet people think of him as the most barbaric man alive – grossly far from reality.
Most barbaric man alive? Never heard that one, but I'll take your word for it (that the argument gets made).
You are right, sadly enough. But if the Christian religion itself condemns the crusades, and the Muslim faith itself condemns the loss of innocent life, then how are we to blame the religion for the followers’ actions?
Simple, we acknowledge what religions have been used for. Not just the big ones of today, but all religions throughout human history.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca (c. 4 BC – AD 65)

Want your neighbors land? Call it holy and provide a divine order.
Religion is more useful to rulers than most realize.
The religion, on both sides, clearly condemns violence. Humans are humans at the end of the day, and greed and power is a thirst many are seeking to quench.
Agreed, thus why the god concepts of all civilizations have been abused by the rulers. God concepts, when believed in are far to useful. Land becomes holy somehow, when in reality, land is something that us humans share.


“And Allah guideth not those who reject faith.
— Sura Al-Baqara, v. 264
In the Quran, the term kafir is first applied to the unbelieving Meccans, and their attempts to refute and revile Muhammad. Later, Muslims are ordered to keep apart from them, defend themselves from their attacks, and finally take the offensive against them.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Qur%27an_ ... Muslims�
I am glad you brought this up, because this needs to be cleared.
No need, it is clear you are not such a Muslim that would support such a teaching as:

ISIS online magazine Dar al-Islam claimed:

the one that follows the path of Islam and then Jihad should know that the road is long … and could lead him, if Allah wants this, near him in his Paradise.


I'm addressing any Muslims that would (any religious person really that would espouse such a thing actually. Not just a Muslim of course).
Much love Clownboat!!
Thanks for the kind words! Be well!
You can build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, or you can set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible being’s wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

Abdelrahman
Student
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:36 pm

Re: Indoctrination in Islam, continued..

Post by Abdelrahman »

Chrisitians are also not suppose to judge. Doesn't stop the judging though. Let me give you an example:
When I was a child, 'John' (generic example) was not going to hell.
Atheists for example in general (not a John) deserved hell for rejecting god. Same was claimed for Muslims and all others religions. They reject the one true god and therefore deserve enternal torment in hell.
Do those that reject Allah not deserve the same? (This is a generic question, therefore you are not judging anyone in specific). This is how Christians get around their judging. Acknowledge that a certain group deserves something (a hell in this case). Then all that is required is to lump outsiders into said group.
In Islam, we are told that certain 'actions' can lead to hell-fire if persisted upon and not repented. As I showed you in the above verse on Christians and Jews and Sabians, if they did good actions they also go to heaven.

I take it that Christians and Jews are people that reject 'Allah' i.e. the Muslim concept of God. The point I'm making is that, God judges everyone separately. Someone who may have never believed in God may go to heaven and that is up to God's decision. If they had never heard about the religion for example.

What if they had heard about it, but rejected it? Then God will judge them based on this but a Muslim CANNOT say they will go to hell. No matter what.

We have a famous story, that if a man kills another man wrongly (i.e. murder) then they switch spots in the afterlife. For example, if a righteous man destined for heaven wrongly kills a bad man destined for hell, they switch spots. The bad guy, because his life was taken wrongly, goes to the heaven that was promised to the good guy and the good guy goes to the bad guy's hell.

When a small action such as the giving water to a thirsty dog, can wipe out an entire lifetime of sin, it becomes clear that God does what He wishes. Everyone is judged differently.

The above verse shows that Christians can go to heaven too, so who am I to say, who will and who won't.

You're right, judgement still happens. But again, if we are told in the religion not to judge and yet people judge, is it the religions fault? I believe it is peoples fault, because there is a way to practice this faith correctly without condemning others to hell.

We have beautiful concepts of God's mercy in Islam. For example.

We have a story of a man whom on judgement day, will be judged and destined for hell. As he is being dragged away he calls out to God...Lord! I did not expect this of you! When it is clear what his verdict was. Then God asks him what did you expect? and he says I expected you were so merciful you'd forgive me too! God says he called upon my mercy so I have forgiven him put him in paradise.

I have soooo many stories like this. So clearly, even men who have been doomed can be forgiven, so we are not even allowed to say that a group of people are going to hell. We are only told what actions will increase your chances of going to hell and heaven. Obviously, you will be questioned on religion if it's news had reached you and you rejected it...and even then I cannot say anything. It's not allowed.
There is only one true God afterall (so many proclaim). The problem is that too many religions claim to have it. If I do, then you don't.
Islam is the only religion on Earth that says everyone is right in a way. Muslims believe God sent hundreds of thousands of Prophets (pbut) to mankind throughout time. Buddha may very well have been a Prophet but we are not told explicitly so. We believe in the common origin of all religion. That is why so many exist, because God sent a Prophet to each group of people, every nation, every race got someone from among their people to warn them.

Muslims believe in Jesus (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh). Jews reject Jesus (pbuh), they are too proud to accept him as a prophet. Christians reject Muhammad (pbuh) saying he is devil inspired although he (pbuh) taught us to give charity and pray to God...surely the devil wouldn't have inspired us to do good works. People reject other prophets because they are from separate nations - and that is God's test on mankind.

Muslims believe, that when a people wronged their prophet God sometimes sent another. As with the children of Israel - we believe they received many many prophets. So that's why so many religions exist according to us. Our proof is that religions share common characteristics (The Golden rule) but we can see man's fingerprints on the religion.

Some faiths, have no problem changing their 'words of God'. Christians for example, openly declare new editions of the Bible and have written so many different kinds. I can show you textual differences between editions 25 years apart. They continuously change God's words and have invented concepts historically (Council of Nicaea) to suit their needs.

Muslims are literally the only group that say that God loves us all equally and gave us all a shot. He does not love one group more than another.

What about the Asian people? The Indians? The Arabs? Did Jesus (pbuh) only come for his people (as he stated) or to everyone?

So we don't even say that we are right and everyone is wrong. All we are saying is that at one point in time, everyone WAS right. And due to them changing their religion and original teachings, God sent more and more Prophets ending with the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the last Prophet for all of mankind.

You will not find another religion on Earth that believes this. They all believe everyone else is totally wrong and completely making things up - devil inspired fully. Liars and false Prophets. Muslims don't, we have trust in mankind, and God loves mankind..
Would not most infidels (not someone in specific) deserve to go to hell?
in·fi·del
- a person who does not believe in religion or who adheres to a religion other than one's own.
- adhering to a religion other than one's own.
Infidelity would increase your chances of Hell, but again, I am not allowed to say they are going to hell. Either as a group or individually. Anything can happen and God is the only One who judges.

As for those who blow themselves up killing innocent lives, not only are they condemning themselves to hell for suicide, they may very well be sending all those innocent souls to heaven. Thus is God's mercy in Islam and I am not allowed to say they are going to hell....literally no matter what. We know which actions increase your chances and which actions improve your chances of Heaven, but none of us, NO MUSLIM gains paradise based off his/her actions.

We are directly told, that don't expect to go to heaven based off your actions. It is only God's mercy that takes you to heaven, not all your good works. So I can't even say that a specific good person is going to heaven...I must say that God willing they will go to heaven.
God concepts throughout all time and all civilizations had all sorts of names for the gods. Anyone that decides to believe that they follow the only true god concept rather than acknowledging that all civilizations have their own god concepts also adds to the division.
That's why Muslims believe everyone is right, partly. Those who follow the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh) will be rewarded by God. Those who followed Moses (pbuh) and Noah (pbuh) and Lot (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) all these people and their followers go to heaven and even more. We believe all the prophets are equal in the sight of God..
Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." - The Holy Qur'an [3:84]
We are both humans sharing this planet, this is a truth. That anyones god concept is more true than anyone elses god concept is divisive. Those that add in teachings about evils inflicted on those that don't adhere to the specific god concept in question adds to the division.
I agree, we must not condemn anyone. In the Qur'an it says: There is no compulsion in religion. We share Earth and we must be neighbours to one another regardless of faith. This is the true creed of Islam and what it teaches and anyone who says otherwise has greatly misunderstood the essence of our religion.

This is not a surprise and is an expected result of someone religiously devout. Not Muhammad specifically of course, the hero (or whatever we would call it) of their religion. Christians want you to know their Christ, the son of the One True God. (Not the Muslim version mind you).
Fairly said. And I'm always open to hear about peoples personal faiths. I pull inspiration from my Christian brethren and I love them for the sake God. I love you too brother, believer or not, just for being my brother in humanity.
It is important to note that I have not claimed that all Christians or Muslims tell their children that there are those that deserve heaven/hell.
If you are not one of them, good on you. I'm discussing those that do and addressing that it is divisive and can lead to violence and bloodshed.

< snipped the covenant >
Completely agree. There are always those that don't understand religion and simply reading on it would correct everyone. I feel like those uneducated on Islam don't even make the effort to read. They are usually so filled with hate due to political reason they don't even care what the religion teaches. I do my best to correct Muslims if they wrongly accuse anyone for eternal damnation...not our job...not our right.
Now how much bloodshed do you think would have been prevented if Muslims and Christians had held to this covenant.
Much likely. Thank you for acknowledging that there are those that don't. Those are the ones I'm addressing with my statement.
Of course. I would be greatly in error to state that this doesn't exist. Muslims are not perfect, and they have made many many many mistakes.

I argue that if the religion clearly tells us not to condemn others, and that's what the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught. To the extent that once a group of Jews were carrying out a funeral service and when walking by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) he stood out of respect...even though it was someone from a different faith.

When asked about this, this is what he (pbuh) said:
Qays ibn Sa‘d and Sahl ibn Hunayf may Allaah be pleased with them said: "A funeral procession passed by the Messenger of Allaah, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, so he stood up. We said, 'It is the funeral procession of a Jew.' He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, said: 'Is it not a soul?'" [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]
Standing out of respect just because he was a fellow human soul. He (pbuh) also said:
"Indeed, death is alarmingly frightful, so if you see a funeral procession, stand up."
Most barbaric man alive? Never heard that one, but I'll take your word for it (that the argument gets made).
Trust me man, people do not stop insulting him (pbuh) without reading about him.

He (pbuh) said:
"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever has not kindness has not faith."
Simple, we acknowledge what religions have been used for. Not just the big ones of today, but all religions throughout human history.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca (c. 4 BC – AD 65)

Want your neighbors land? Call it holy and provide a divine order.
Religion is more useful to rulers than most realize.
You'd be surprised how little the rulers of Muslim countries are meant to gain. In Islam, the ruler is responsible for each of their citizens and will be asked about them on the Day of Judgement. The Prophet (pbuh) is the best example of this, throughout his Prophethood he slept in a room that could not have someone sleep in and pray in at the same time. He (pbuh) said:
"Poverty is my pride"
As to give charity to and to put others needs before ones own, is something to be proud of.

In a Muslim ruled country, the people come first. Omar ibn al-Khattab one of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and one of the greatest rulers we have known said when he was ruling over Jerusalem:
“In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. This is the assurance of safety which the servant of God, Umar, the Commander of the Faithful, has given to the people of Jerusalem. He has given them an assurance of safety for themselves for their property, their churches, their crosses, the sick and healthy of the city and for all the rituals which belong to their religion. Their churches will not be inhabited by Muslims and will not be destroyed. Neither they, nor the land on which they stand, nor their cross, nor their property will be damaged. They will not be forcibly converted."
Add to that, he was the second Caliph for the Muslims. All the resources that a government acquires goes to the people first.

If Muhammad (pbuh) was after control and money, he would have upgraded his home, his clothes, anything. But he remained in simple clothes and a simple home. The very rules of Shariah prohibit the ruler from hording resources for himself. Compare that to other rulers, other kings. How much money did other institutions hord, how many were converted by the sword.
Agreed, thus why the god concepts of all civilizations have been abused by the rulers. God concepts, when believed in are far to useful. Land becomes holy somehow, when in reality, land is something that us humans share.
You're right, we share this land. But different religious groups and leaders have acted differently with regards to said land. Some have butchered others, and some have achieved peace.

No need, it is clear you are not such a Muslim that would support such a teaching as:
ISIS online magazine Dar al-Islam claimed:

the one that follows the path of Islam and then Jihad should know that the road is long … and could lead him, if Allah wants this, near him in his Paradise.


I'm addressing any Muslims that would (any religious person really that would espouse such a thing actually. Not just a Muslim of course).
Ya Jihad is also greatly misunderstood. Don't get me started on ISIS. All one needs to do is open the Qur'an or hadiths and read about it!
Thanks for the kind words! Be well!
You too brother!

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