Twelve Proofs that Muhammad is a True Prophet

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Twelve Proofs that Muhammad is a True Prophet

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Twelve Proofs that Muhammad is a True Prophet
Shaykh `Abdul Rahman `Abdul Khaliq
Originally published by IANA


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My brothers and sisters everywhere! With this essay, I am not singling out the adherents of Islam - to which I ascribe - but rather I am writing this essay to every man and woman throughout the whole world.

I ask Allah that He facilitates tat this essay reaches every ear, falls under the sight of every eye, and is understood by every heart...

Muhammad the son of `Abdullah is Allah's Prophet and the Final Messenger Sent by Allah to the Inhabitants of Earth.

My brothers and sisters everywhere! You should know that the Messenger, Muhammad the son of `Abdullah (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) is Allah's Messenger in reality and truth. The evidences that show his veracity are abundant. None but an infidel, who out of arrogance alone, could deny these signs.

Among these proofs:

1. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he had no prior knowledge of Religion or any previously sent Message. He remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad with the Koran that we now have between our hands. This Koran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews or Christians were able to belie him regarding anything that he said.

2. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad foretold, as if he was reading the future from an open book.

3. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also brought an Arabic Koran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Koran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Koran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Koran.

Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty, and splendor of this Glorious Koran.

4. The life history of this Noble Prophet was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he was ever mindful and fearful of Allah.

5. Allah instilled great love for Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him. This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him.

Till today, those who believe in Muhammad honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him, even if but once.

6. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad, who is the most influential human in history.

Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad, the believers in him will greet him and ask Allah to bless him. They do such with full hearts and true love for him.

7. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those who believe in him.

Those who believe in Muhammad, sleep in the manner he slept; purify themselves (through ablution and ritual washing) in the manner he purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves.

Indeed in all aspects of their lives, the believers in Muhammad adhere to the teachings he spread among them and the path that he traveled upon during his life.

During every generation, from his day till our time, the believers in this Noble Prophet have fully adhered to his teachings. With some, this has reached the degree that they desire to follow and adhere to the Prophet's way in his personal matters regarding which Allah has not sought of them to adhere to in worship. For example, some will only eat those specific foods or only wear those specific garments that the Messenger liked.

Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad repeat those praises of Allah, special prayers, and invocations that he would say during each of his actions during day and night, like: what he would say when he greeted people, upon entering and leaving the house, entering and leaving the mosque, entering and leaving the bathroom, going to sleep and awaking from sleep, observing the new crescent, observing the new fruit on trees, eating, drinking, dressing, riding, traveling and returning from travel, etc.

Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad fully perform-even to the minute detail-every act of worship-like prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage-as this Noble Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) taught and as he himself performed.

All of this allows those who believe in him, to live their lives in all aspects with this Noble Messenger as their example, as if he was standing before them, for them to follow in all their doings.

8. There has never been nor will there ever be a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters-small and large alike-as has this Noble Prophet.

9. Since his day, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet has been followed by individuals from all races, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad out of compulsion or coercion or because they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.

Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (may Allah's blessings peace be upon him), chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. Most people who have followed this Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) have done so not to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of following this Prophet. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion.

My brethren! All of this clearly indicates to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet was truly and really Allah's messenger and that he was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke about Allah without knowledge.

10. With all this, Muhammad came with a great religion in its credal and legal make-up.

Muhammad described Allah with qualities of complete perfection, and at the same time in a manner that is free of ascribing to Him any imperfection. Neither the philosophers or the wise could ever describe Allah like such. Indeed it is impossible to imagine that any human mind could conceive of an existing being that possesses such complete ability, knowledge, and greatness; Who has subdued the creation; Who has encompassed everything in the universe, small or large; and Who possesses such perfect mercy.

Nor is it in the ability of any human being to place a perfect law based upon justice, equality, mercy and objectivity for all human activity on earth like the laws that Muhammad brought for all spheres of human activity - like buying and selling, marriage and divorce, renting, testimony, custody, and all other contracts that are necessary to uphold life and civilization on earth.

11. It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom,, morals, good manners, nobleness of characters as what this honorable Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought.

In a full and complete manner, Muhammad spread a teaching regarding character and manners toward one' parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching.

All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger did not bring an) of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he received from the One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture and perfection.

12. The legal and credal make-up of the religion that the Messenger, Muhammad, (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He who created the heavens and the earth is the One Who sent down this great law and upright religion.

The degree of inimitability of the Divine law that was sent down upon Muhammad is to the same degree of inimitability of the Divine creation of the heavens and earth. For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allah's law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him).

http://www.saaid.net/islam/8.htm

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Post #2

Post by Furrowed Brow »

erm....I think you are misusing the term "proof".

12 dubious arguments/claims maybe. For example
8. There has never been nor will there ever be a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters-small and large alike-as has this Noble Prophet.
This is a calim that looks like a factual claim that could be challenged directly as a matter of fact and critiqued over how such a claim could be objectively quantified, but more important even if this is true it proves nothing.

This is on obvious example. The remainder of your "proofs" are also each problematic.

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Re: Twelve Proofs that Muhammad is a True Prophet

Post #3

Post by mecca »

good wrote:1. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he had no prior knowledge of Religion or any previously sent Message. He remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad with the Koran that we now have between our hands. This Koran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews or Christians were able to belie him regarding anything that he said.
For me that is not a very important question since Muhammad's illiteracy doesn't prove anything. The famous classical Greek poet Homer was blind and hence couldn't read or write either. But he composed one of the most famous pieces of literature.

Nobody would conclude that he was therefore a prophet. One can say anything orally that one could write by hand. One can hear anything read or narrated by others that one could read with one's own eyes.

Whether Muhammad had the technical ability to read and write or not, doesn't not imply anything about the source of his speech or the possibility of having been informed by others orally.

As such, taking this criterion as a proof of his prophethood is not very strong.

Also, Muslims tell emphasize that the Qur'an and the Muhammad in some hadith stress learning and to seek knowledge. The process of learning and growing in knowledge is certainly much easier if one can read and write.

If Muhammad indeed put such a strong emphasis on learning, why would he for all of his life insist to not learn himself? First of all: Not learn to read and write, second to use reading to learn more? Is he disobedient to his own exhortations?

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reply to the thread starter (part one of two)

Post #4

Post by itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould »

Hi there.

I hope the person who posted this thread originally will not take offence at my replies below. They are simply my honest thoughts on what you have said, and are not meant to be a personal attack on yourself.

I have discussed islam with muslim people and at one stage knew one muslim person very well. My comments below are mostly iterating the things about islam that I was never comfortable with, and which my muslim friend was not able to answer for me.

My key concern is that while muhammad states that he is a man and a prophet of god not a god (and I believe this ties into the main islamic problem with christianity, that they feel christ was a prophet, not the son of god, and therefore that muhammad was kind of a better deal as at least he (muhammad) did not claim to be something more than a man...) however all the comments I have read and heard from muslim people on their faith always seem to give much more time and testimony to muhammad than they do to allah. Why is this? if allah is god, then muhammad is just a man, and even if he was a good or great man, he could only be such, by the grace of god. So why is he praised so much for doing something that was not really his doing, simply a gift from god?
1. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he was known as being truthful and trustworthy.

While he may well have been illiterate, and truthful and honest, either of the above is proof of the person being a disciple of god, neither are miracles or signs, as the bible teaches that there will be many false prophets who will display signs and miracles

Before receiving revelation, he had no prior knowledge of Religion or any previously sent Message. He remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad with the Koran that we now have between our hands.

The bible states that many false prophets will perform miracles
This Koran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews or Christians were able to belie him regarding anything that he said

demons know the bible very well, therefore a deceiver would have no trouble giving these words to mohammed and making it look as though they were from god. I am not accusing muslims of being knowingly involved with demons, and possibly not muhammad, I am simply pointing out that demons are the masters of deception. And they know the bible from beginning to end, word for word.


2. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad foretold, as if he was reading the future from an open book.


4. The life history of this Noble Prophet was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he was ever mindful and fearful of Allah.

You have stated that he is the above. But you have not proven it. I am told that the Koran talks of murder, rape and torture in wars led by mohammed....


5. Allah instilled great love for Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him. This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him.

Till today, those who believe in Muhammad honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him, even if but once.


Would they worship him? if so is this idolatry? I always wondered why the statement that is made to convert/revert to islam is that the person believes that "there is one true god and 'that mohammed was his prophet". Ignoring for a moment my opinion that mohammed was not a prophet, and considering the islamic believe that he was....even if he was...... the Koran also recognisees jesus christ and others as prophets of god.

So why does the statement (Shahaadatan ) not recognisee the other prophets? and single out muhammad???

Why is muhammad revered in such a way as to seem to non muslims like me, to be worship? Did not mohammed himself say he was just a man, not a god? Yet to me he seems to be treated more like a god than a man, which would make islam not monotheistic but somewhere in the territory of the catholic belief system

6. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad, who is the most influential human in history.

Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad, the believers in him will greet him and ask Allah to bless him. They do such with full hearts and true love for him.


Again, the above statement seems to be more about mohammed than allah. Mohammed (referred to by name or as 'him' is referred to 6 times in the above statement. Allah....one time. Why are you giving such reverence to a man. Regardless of whether he was a good, or great man, he was still in his own words a man. Not a god... therefore to revere him in this way seems to me to be idolatry


7. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those who believe in him.

Mohammed mentioned 1 time - allah 0

Those who believe in Muhammad, sleep in the manner he slept; purify themselves (through ablution and ritual washing) in the manner he purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves
.
muhammad, manner HE slept, in the manner HE purified... adhere to HIS
(muhammad 4 x, allah mentioned no times

Indeed in all aspects of their lives, the believers in Muhammad adhere to the teachings he spread among them and the path that he traveled upon during his life.
Muhammed, teachings he spread... travelled on duing His life...
.

(muhammad, muhammad muhammad....) Allah.....where for art thou?
During every generation, from his day till our time, the believers in this Noble Prophet have fully adhered to his teachings. With some, this has reached the degree that they desire to follow and adhere to the Prophet's way in his personal matters regarding which Allah has not sought of them to adhere to in worship. For example, some will only eat those specific foods or only wear those specific garments that the Messenger liked.

"adhere to the Prophet's way in his personal matters regarding which Allah has not sought of them to adhere to in worship"
So these people have decided that muhammads word is law... not gods?

Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad repeat those praises of Allah, special prayers, and invocations that he would say during each of his actions during day and night, like: what he would say when he greeted people, upon entering and leaving the house, entering and leaving the mosque, entering and leaving the bathroom, going to sleep and awaking from sleep, observing the new crescent, observing the new fruit on trees, eating, drinking, dressing, riding, traveling and returning from travel, etc.

So the way to pray to god, and words to use to pray to god, are the words as instructed by muhammad?
What if a muslim wants to say something that is on their mind or heart that is not in line with muhammads instructions? Or occurs at a time which is not a prayer time?


Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad fully perform-even to the minute detail-every act of worship-like prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage-as this Noble Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) taught and as he himself performed.


"all those who believe in Muhammad" do you believe in muhammad, a man, or god?

All of this allows those who believe in him, to live their lives in all aspects with this Noble Messenger as their example, as if he was standing before them, for them to follow in all their doings.


Thats exactly my concern, muslim people seem to place the most importance on the teachings of muhammad. Not those of god, and not those of gods word
Also I am told that islam teaches that all the prophets that went before muhammad and who wrote their own stories in the bibles old and new testaments, are to be over written and no longer valid, that muhammad as the last prophet has new teachings that overrule the old.

What kind of god messes up so badly that after a whole pile of prophets have written down his word he goes
Oh - oops
sorry scratch that, got it wrong, muhammad can you rewrite the whole thing for me and tell everyone that I made a mistake with all the other chaps, mark, john, paul etc...

last I heard gods are gods by virtue of their perfection, they do NOT make mistakes like that..

I realise i have not addressed all your comments, but for the sake of lengthy posts not being even longer I will address the others in another post


Finally, a question which I personally would like to know what muslim people think

you say jesus christ was not the son of god, but was a prophet right?

I have also read that a prophet does not lie except in very specific situations (which I cant recall right now but I did look up and did not seem to apply in any way to jesus christ)
Anyway it is well documented that jesus declared himself to be the son of god, not a prophet.

So this means that either
  • he was lying
    or he was crazy (and truly believed he was the son of god but was not)
    or he was telling the truth and was/is the son of god


How can any of the above be true and meet the requirements of islam?

for any of the above to be true it would mean that either:
  • Jesus was a prophet who lied (why would a perfect god select a prophet and then have that prophet tell lies - and not little lies HUGE BIG ones saying that he was the son of god and god in the flesh!!)
    Or that god choose a crazy guy who was not in touch with reality to be a prophet
    Or that Jesus is god in the flesh... which of course no muslim would ever accept or consider



I would like to know what the Koran says about jesus's claims to be the son of god, how it explains them in the context of jesus as a prophet?

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Post #5

Post by Murad »

itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould wrote: if allah is god, then muhammad is just a man, and even if he was a good or great man, he could only be such, by the grace of god. So why is he praised so much for doing something that was not really his doing, simply a gift from god?
Narrated 'Umar: "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle.'
(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophets, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 654)"
itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould wrote: demons know the bible very well, therefore a deceiver would have no trouble giving these words to mohammed and making it look as though they were from god. I am not accusing muslims of being knowingly involved with demons, and possibly not muhammad, I am simply pointing out that demons are the masters of deception. And they know the bible from beginning to end, word for word.
This is the exact same view Islam has about the Trinity.


itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould wrote: Would they worship him? if so is this idolatry? I always wondered why the statement that is made to convert/revert to islam is that the person believes that "there is one true god and 'that mohammed was his prophet". Ignoring for a moment my opinion that mohammed was not a prophet, and considering the islamic believe that he was....even if he was...... the Koran also recognisees jesus christ and others as prophets of god.

So why does the statement (Shahaadatan ) not recognisee the other prophets? and single out muhammad???
Because by accepting Muhammad(pbuh) you automatically accept all the previous prophets from Adam to Jesus.

itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould wrote: Also I am told that islam teaches that all the prophets that went before muhammad and who wrote their own stories in the bibles old and new testaments, are to be over written and no longer valid, that muhammad as the last prophet has new teachings that overrule the old.

What kind of god messes up so badly that after a whole pile of prophets have written down his word he goes
Oh - oops
sorry scratch that, got it wrong, muhammad can you rewrite the whole thing for me and tell everyone that I made a mistake with all the other chaps, mark, john, paul etc...
I doubt you have even opened the Bible; how do you explaining the conflicting geneologies of Jesus in Matthew or Luke? How do you explain the 9 undeniable contradictions of the Bible?
How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26).
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8).
(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?
(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4).
(b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
(a) Forty thousand (1 Kings 4:26).
(b) Four thousand (2 Chronicles 9:25).

In what year of King Asa’’s reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?
(a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 - 16:8).
(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?
(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26).
(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5).

Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:
(a) 29,818 (Ezra).
(b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

How many singers accompanied the assembly?
(a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65).
(b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67).

Who killed Goliath?
(a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50).
(b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).
itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould wrote: you say jesus christ was not the son of god, but was a prophet right?

I have also read that a prophet does not lie except in very specific situations (which I cant recall right now but I did look up and did not seem to apply in any way to jesus christ)
Anyway it is well documented that jesus declared himself to be the son of god, not a prophet.
He also called himself the "Son of Man":
Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
(Matthew 8:20)
He also clearly stated:
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
(Mark 10:18)
itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould wrote: I would like to know what the Koran says about jesus's claims to be the son of god, how it explains them in the context of jesus as a prophet?
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

(Quran 5:116-117)
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould
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Post #6

Post by itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould »

Murad wrote: I doubt you have even opened the Bible; how do you explaining the conflicting geneologies of Jesus in Matthew or Luke? How do you explain the 9 undeniable contradictions of the Bible?
Hi, Good question.

I have read the bible... Have I read it end to end? no. I am a new Christian so have not gotten that far yet.

For the same reason I may not be able to answer your questions below, but I will ask some other Christians at my church and reply back here with what they say. In the meanwhile I will post any comments of my own below, immediately after each of the 9 points you have made...
Murad wrote: How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26).
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).
I looked these passages up in the bible myself. In my bible (NLT) both state the age as being 22. However on further investigation I note that some versions of the bible state the age as 42.

I did some research and found the following explanation on one site:
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah - See the note on 2 Kings 8:26. Ahaziah might have been twenty-two years old, according to 2 Kings 8:26 (note), but he could not have been forty-two, as stated here, without being two years older than his own father! See the note there. The Syriac and Arabic have twenty-two, and the Septuagint, in some copies, twenty. And it is very probable that the Hebrew text read so originally; for when numbers were expressed by single letters, it was easy to mistake מ mem, Forty, for כ caph, Twenty. And if this book was written by a scribe who used the ancient Hebrew letters, now called the Samaritan, the mistake was still more easy and probable, as the difference between caph and mem is very small, and can in many instances be discerned only by an accustomed eye.

I will ask people who know the bible better than myself about this. And I will continue to research it myself.
My own initial thoughts are that, firstly the bible, was written by men, and recorded their experiences and memories of events, so there is possibility for mistakes there - I know there have been times when I have written down my side of something that happened, only to find out later on that someone else who was there remembered something different, and sometimes they were right.
There are similar discrepancies in the Quran I am told...

Here is another explanation:

http://fromtheold.com/bible-versions/ho ... h-22-or-42

the key point being:

" Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign--(Compare 2Ki 8:26). According to that passage, the commencement of his reign is dated in the twenty-second year of his age, and, according to this, in the forty-second year of the kingdom of his mother's family "

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8).
(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?
(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4).
(b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
(a) Forty thousand (1 Kings 4:26).
(b) Four thousand (2 Chronicles 9:25).

In what year of King Asa’’s reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?
(a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 - 16:8).
(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?
(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26).
(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5).

Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:
(a) 29,818 (Ezra).
(b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

How many singers accompanied the assembly?
(a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65).
(b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67).

Who killed Goliath?
(a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50).
(b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).
[/quote]

I also note that all but one of the above, are related to numbers, with many of the questions regarding discrepancies between 2 numbers with similarities (ie 18 /8, 42/22, 26th year/36th year, 40,000/4,000, which makes me wonder whether the characters representing those numbers (or their key differences ie 10, tens of thousands, etc) might be similar? It just seems a little odd to me, that most of these inconsistencies have these patterns. If they were straight out incorrect/inconsistent information, Id have thought they would be numbers for the most part with nothing in common (ie 22 and 46 not 22 and 42, or 4000 and 456829 (not 4thousand and 40 thousand). Id also have thought that if someone was just kinda making something up, and was wrong, that the ways in which they would be wrong, would be pretty widespread. Ie they would not get everything right but some numbers. They would instead get places wrong, actions/events wrong, outcomes (especially things like who won a war etc) wrong. Why would someone who was deluded, or deceiptful or for whatever reason, just plain wrong, only get the numbers wrong, and then only in most cases within a digit...
To me that does not make sense, Id expect them to be getting a range of things wrong, from things that happened, to people present, to things said, to intentions and motivations, to dates, etc etc. And Id have thought that the mistakes would also be at random.

Why?

Because if someone was writing a book of the size and scope of the bible, then either they were totally deluded, or they were intentionally deceitful.

If they were intentionally deceptive - then that would mean that they would be taking a lot of time, energy and research to make what they were writing seem plausable and correct, right? And they would also be trying to make sure that everything they wrote could not easily be proven wrong.
However if that is the case...WHY would this/these deceptive people, be able to contrive a story which when checked against the non numerical claims, cannot be disproved, yet make such basic and obvious mistakes with numbers ?
If they were intelligent enough to write the rest of the bible so that it cannot be disproved, you would think they could do the same with simple things like the age of Ahaziah when he became king, or if they made such obvious mistakes as the age of Ahaziah when crowned, that they would also have made numerous mistakes in other areas/concepts..? Can anyone explain this for me?


that however thats just my own personal opinion

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Post by Wootah »

My biggest issue with considering Mohammed a prophet is the spin needed to wash over the various things I understand occurred in his life. I don't want to have to accept that Aiyeshi was very mature for her age or that Mohammad's wars were defensive wars and the Banu tribe were traitors and had to be executed etc. We know what it meant when the Koran said a Muslim can have what his right hand possesses. It could all be true of course and that Mohammad was the next prophet ....

The only way I have been able to recocile my understanding of Mohammad's life and Mohammad as a prophet was imagining that Mohammad was an Israelite and I read about him in the Old Testament then I could see a loving God working through a sinful nation as I do when read the Old Testament. I mean compared to some of the things in the OT then Mohammad was a good guy. But post Jesus all the prophets from Mohammad to the Bab to Joseph Smith to the Ahmaddyi don't stack up for me. (The Bab and Ahmaddyi didn't kill anyone I believe but correct me if I'm wrong there.)

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Post #8

Post by Kuan »

Wootah wrote:But post Jesus all the prophets from Mohammad to the Bab to Joseph Smith to the Ahmaddyi don't stack up for me. (The Bab and Ahmaddyi didn't kill anyone I believe but correct me if I'm wrong there.)
Joseph Smith didnt kill anyone either ;)
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
- Voltaire

Kung may ayaw, may dahilan. Kung may gusto, may paraan.

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Post #9

Post by Murad »

itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould wrote:If they were intentionally deceptive - then that would mean that they would be taking a lot of time, energy and research to make what they were writing seem plausable and correct, right? And they would also be trying to make sure that everything they wrote could not easily be proven wrong.
When your friends at your Church give me a reply; make sure you notify me.

& i don't believe they are intentionally deceptive; just proof that the Bible is not the word of God:
"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
(Proverbs 30:5)
Wootah wrote: My biggest issue with considering Mohammed a prophet is the spin needed to wash over the various things I understand occurred in his life. I don't want to have to accept that Aiyeshi was very mature for her age
King Solomon had 1000 wives (or 700 wives & 300 concubines), the concept of being "18+" is a modern idea, in biblical & post biblical times girls who reached puberty could be married off. Aisha(r.a) personally narrated dozens of hadiths; no other wife of Muhammad(pbuh) praises him to the extent that she does.

Wootah wrote: or that Mohammad's wars were defensive wars and the Banu tribe were traitors and had to be executed etc.
Yes the Banu Quraiza were traitors; i am all for capital punishment when it comes to espionage or violating treaties to take advantage of someone elses weakness.

Wootah wrote: The only way I have been able to recocile my understanding of Mohammad's life and Mohammad as a prophet was imagining that Mohammad was an Israelite and I read about him in the Old Testament then I could see a loving God working through a sinful nation as I do when read the Old Testament. I mean compared to some of the things in the OT then Mohammad was a good guy.
Muhammad(pbuh) was in ishmaelite, destined to free the pagan arabs of idol worshipping.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
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itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould
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Post #10

Post by itsNotLikeIThoughtItWould »

Murad wrote: He also clearly stated:
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
(Mark 10:18)
Jesus did not say he was not good, or he was not god, he was challenging the man to think about his reasons for addressing him that way. - ie did he think Jesus was not good (in which case why call him good), or He was God.

If you read further in that passage, you see the following:
The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?�

27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.�

28 Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!�

29 “Truly I tell you,� Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
First he tells them that it is impossible to be saved with man, but not with god

then he tells them that anyone who follows him
Jesus wrote:truly i tell you
(and he even emphasises it),

will receive eternal life

If I said to you, for example, that you could only get apples off blonde women,

and then I said
you could get some apples off me

you would understand that I was telling you I was a 'blonde woman' would you not?

Thus in the above, jesus says that you can only get eternal life from god, and then says if you follow me your reward will be eternal life - so the logical conclusion is that he is saying pretty much "think about it - who do you think I am?"

if only god can give eternal life, and if following jesus will result in eternal life, then jesus must be god - or deluded /lying.

Which means that either he is a prophet who is a liar
or he is a prophet who is delusional
Or he is telling the truth....

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