When was the bible corrupted?

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JehovahsWitness
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When was the bible corrupted?

Post #1

Post by JehovahsWitness »

I have discussed scripture with a lot of Muslims who tell me that while the bible is indeed the result of divine revelation but that it was corrupted. My question is:


1 Is this an "official" teaching of Islam?
and

2 About when (which century) did this corruption begin for...

a) the hebrew bible
b) the Christian Greek Scriptures

references would be greatly appreciated.

JW

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Post #11

Post by Murad »

Yep, your summary is accurate.
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JehovahsWitness wrote: FOOTNOTE
_________________________________________________________


** Can you explain how the verses are identified eg Qur'an 26:107 links to
019.056
YUSUFALI: Also mention in the Book the case of Idris: He was a man of truth (and sincerity), (and) a prophet:
PICKTHAL: And make mention in the Scripture of Idris. Lo! he was a saint, a prophet;
SHAKIR: And mention Idris in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet,
Sorry i didn't quite understand? 26:107 is about Noah, it doesn't link to 19:56 which is about Prophet Idris (Enoch).
JehovahsWitness wrote: Are the passages in the Koran?
Yes, the layout of the Quran is similar to the Bible, an example is the first Chapter called "Al-Fatihah", which every muslim repeats 5 times a day:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds:
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful:
Owner of the Day of Judgement.
Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) was ask for help.
Show us the straight path:
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
(Quran 1:1-7)
JehovahsWitness wrote: what are the names and numbers
Each chapter of the Quran has a name, and the first numerals are a reference to that chapter (e.g. 02:YY)) This refers to the 2nd chapter of the Quran.

The other part refers to the verse within that chapter (e.g. 02:12)

Link to the Quran:
http://salmanspiritual.com/quran_surah.cfm
JehovahsWitness wrote: (sorry to sound so ignorant. Is YUSUFALI a book?
Nope, its just one of the many english translations of the Original Arabic.

Keep in mind, the Quran was produced by an illiterate man, as a sign of its divine origin.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

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Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Murad wrote:Yep, your summary is accurate.
__
JehovahsWitness wrote: FOOTNOTE
_________________________________________________________


** Can you explain how the verses are identified eg Qur'an 26:107 links to
019.056
YUSUFALI: Also mention in the Book the case of Idris: He was a man of truth (and sincerity), (and) a prophet:
PICKTHAL: And make mention in the Scripture of Idris. Lo! he was a saint, a prophet;
SHAKIR: And mention Idris in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet,
Sorry i didn't quite understand? 26:107 is about Noah, it doesn't link to 19:56 which is about Prophet Idris (Enoch).
JehovahsWitness wrote: Are the passages in the Koran?
Yes, the layout of the Quran is similar to the Bible, an example is the first Chapter called "Al-Fatihah", which every muslim repeats 5 times a day:
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds:
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful:
Owner of the Day of Judgement.
Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) was ask for help.
Show us the straight path:
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
(Quran 1:1-7)
JehovahsWitness wrote: what are the names and numbers
Each chapter of the Quran has a name, and the first numerals are a reference to that chapter (e.g. 02:YY)) This refers to the 2nd chapter of the Quran.

The other part refers to the verse within that chapter (e.g. 02:12)

Link to the Quran:
http://salmanspiritual.com/quran_surah.cfm
JehovahsWitness wrote: (sorry to sound so ignorant. Is YUSUFALI a book?
Nope, its just one of the many english translations of the Original Arabic.

Keep in mind, the Quran was produced by an illiterate man, as a sign of its divine origin.
Thank you Murad that was most helpful.

NMSquirrel

Post #13

Post by NMSquirrel »

i knew that...not so much they way you have said it, but in essence..

what i am referring to is the idea of the bible being corrupted and of it not being the word of god..
the very last verses of the bible told me it has been corrupted..
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
the first question that comes up is which book are they talking about revelation or the whole book? every christian i have ever known has said its for the whole book.

then there is the many different authors with their own flavor among the words, i believe this is the corruption that the quran speaks of, but this cannot be just limited to the bible, it applies to anything written by man, i am sure the qurans author has his own flavor,(is the quran just authored by one?)
(by flavor i mean ones own humanity)

questions;
how many authors of the quran?
when did it get written?
does the original still exist?
if not;
why are you so certain it has been uncorrupted?
'because it says so' is not an answer.

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Post #14

Post by Murad »

Hi NMSquirrel

NMSquirrel wrote: then there is the many different authors with their own flavor among the words, i believe this is the corruption that the quran speaks of
Yes it is:
�َوَيْلٌ لّ�لَّذ�ينَ يَكْت�ب�ونَ الْك�تَابَ ب�أَيْد�يه�مْ ث�مَّ يَق�ول�ونَ هَـذَا م�نْ ع�ند� اللّه� ل�يَشْتَر�واْ ب�ه� ثَمَناً قَل�يلاً �َوَيْلٌ لَّه�م مّ�مَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْد�يه�مْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّه�مْ مّ�مَّا يَكْس�ب�ونَ


So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
(Quran 2.79)
NMSquirrel wrote: , but this cannot be just limited to the bible, it applies to anything written by man, i am sure the qurans author has his own flavor,(is the quran just authored by one?)
(by flavor i mean ones own humanity)
Absolutely not.
For muslims, we have the word of God (The Glorious Quran), we have the words of the Prophet (Sahih Hadiths) & we have the words of the historians, all in seperate books. Contrary to the Bible that has all 3 in one.


NMSquirrel wrote: questions;
how many authors of the quran?
One. There are no "Gospels" or "Books" or "Epistles" within the Quran.
The arabic word "Quran" basically means "Recitation"(Of Gods Word).
This Quran, was revealed to Muhammad(pbuh), an illiterate man, who was raised illiterate & died illiterate.

NMSquirrel wrote: when did it get written?
does the original still exist? if not;
why are you so certain it has been uncorrupted?
'because it says so' is not an answer.
The Quran was a revelation of knowledge, thus when a verse was revealed to the Prophet, he used to tell all his companions & the messege was told from one muslim to another. These revelations were recorded down by scribes, under the authority of the Prophet & his companions.


Dr Zakir Naik on the preservation of the Quran:
Dr Zakir Naik wrote: One of the most common myths about the Qur’an, is that Usman (r.a.), the third Caliph of Islam authenticated and compiled one Qur’an, from a large set of mutually contradicting copies. The Qur’an, revered as the Word of Allah (swt) by Muslims the world over, is the same Qur’an as the one revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It was authenticated and written under his personal supervision. We will examine the roots of the myth which says that Usman (r.a.) had the Qur’an authenticated.


1. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an

Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).


2. Order and sequence of Qur’an divinely inspired

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.


3. Qur’an copied on one common material

The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.


4. Usman [aka Uthman] (r.a.) made copies of the Qur’an from the original manuscript

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.).

Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.

There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.


5. Diacritical marks were added for non-Arabs

The original manuscript of the Qur’an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur’an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur’an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth ‘Umayyad’ Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq.

Some people argue that the present copy of the Qur’an that we have along with the vowels and the diacritical marks is not the same original Qur’an that was present at the Prophet’s time. But they fail to realize that the word ‘Qur’an’ means a recitation. Therefore, the preservation of the recitation of the Qur’an is important, irrespective of whether the script is different or whether it contains vowels. If the pronunciation and the Arabic is the same, naturally, the meaning remains the same too.


6. Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an

Allah has promised in the Qur’an :
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)."
[Al-Qur’an 15:9]

SOURCE
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

NMSquirrel

Post #15

Post by NMSquirrel »

I am impressed Murad, i have been asking that at sciforums and all i have gotten back was 'because it is'..

your post was informative and kept my attention (its the adhd thing)..
and now i know more than i did about the quran..

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Re: When was the bible corrupted?

Post #16

Post by Ball Pean »

JehovahsWitness wrote:I have discussed scripture with a lot of Muslims who tell me that while the bible is indeed the result of divine revelation but that it was corrupted. My question is:


1 Is this an "official" teaching of Islam?
and

2 About when (which century) did this corruption begin for...

a) the hebrew bible
b) the Christian Greek Scriptures

references would be greatly appreciated.

JW

The Koran was written by a man who had no faith in God, Christ, the Bible, or anyone else he should have faith in. Muhammad was very Atheistic in that regard. It was when he decided to tell the whole world how God REALLY "should" be, did he dive head first into being a straight-up Pagan. Anyone who claims to know anything other than what the NT says, is lying.

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Re: When was the bible corrupted?

Post #17

Post by McCulloch »

Ball Pean wrote: The Koran was written by a man who had no faith in God, Christ, the Bible, or anyone else he should have faith in. Muhammad was very Atheistic in that regard. It was when he decided to tell the whole world how God REALLY "should" be, did he dive head first into being a straight-up Pagan. Anyone who claims to know anything other than what the NT says, is lying.
Think of how you would react if I were to write
The Epistles of Paul were written by a man who had no faith in God, Christ, the Tanakh, or anyone else he should have faith in. Paul was certainly against the Law of God. It was when he decided to tell the whole world how God REALLY "should" be, did he dive head first into being a straight-up Greek philosophy. Anyone who claims to know anything other than what the Tanakh says, is lying.
I get it, your faith is different from the faiths of others. But in debate, unsubstantiated claims and baseless accusations just don't cut it.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #18

Post by Jrosemary »

Ball Pean wrote: The Koran was written by a man who had no faith in God, Christ, the Bible, or anyone else he should have faith in. Muhammad was very Atheistic in that regard. It was when he decided to tell the whole world how God REALLY "should" be, did he dive head first into being a straight-up Pagan. Anyone who claims to know anything other than what the NT says, is lying.
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Re: When was the bible corrupted?

Post #19

Post by Jacob Simonsky »

JehovahsWitness wrote:I have discussed scripture with a lot of Muslims who tell me that while the bible is indeed the result of divine revelation but that it was corrupted. My question is:


1 Is this an "official" teaching of Islam?
and

2 About when (which century) did this corruption begin for...

a) the hebrew bible
b) the Christian Greek Scriptures

references would be greatly appreciated.

JW




I have always thought the Bible was corrupt. "Corrupt" meaning "not in original form or content". The most obvious "corruption" was when many books were removed and discarded some hundreds of years ago. Other corruptions occur whenever any small change is made to assure agreement with the ideas of the person making the change.

There are "translations" wherein a change due to inadequacy of language may occur. This I do not call a corruption because it may not be deliberate. When a Bible or any part thereof is purposefully edited into a new "Version" then this is, potentially, a corruption. The careful scholar will study it be be sure.

A corruption may be in the adoption of a desired interpretation of parts of scripture. Many of these disagreements are found in all of the Bible. A corruption for one might be a truth for another because of this.

There are thousands of Christian groups in the world. If they all used exactly the very same Bible, old and new testaments, with no edits or changes whatsoever, then there would be no cause to say that the Bible is corrupt. They do not, however, therefore the Bible has been often corrupted by the hand of man.

There is a version of the Bible that is designed to be easier for some to understand. Even though the motives of the author were OK it is a corruption because it is a change.

I am Muslim now. All Muslims use exactly the same Quran no matter if they are of different groups. There is only one Quran in the world. I do wish the same could be said for the Bible.

Is the Bible the explicit Word of God? If so who dares to edit it?
Please do not ask me to provide evidence of what I claim. I have no interest in persuading anyone to believe as I do.

Jew, Christian and Muslim... all equal in G-d's eye.

NMSquirrel

Re: When was the bible corrupted?

Post #20

Post by NMSquirrel »

James Simmons wrote: I am Muslim now. All Muslims use exactly the same Quran no matter if they are of different groups. There is only one Quran in the world. I do wish the same could be said for the Bible.
i am not convinced the quran is corrupt proof..
the only argument that i have gotten for a corrupt proof quran is 'because it say so'

and that is not a valid argument..

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