Where is the wall that's keeping Gog and Magog at bay?

To discuss Islam topics and issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
darwinian
Student
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:35 pm

Where is the wall that's keeping Gog and Magog at bay?

Post #1

Post by darwinian »

In chapter 18 of the Quran we learn that the One with Two Horns (who appears to be Alexander the Great) built a wall of iron and copper between "two mountains" to keep at bay an invading barbarian people called Gog and Magog. We further learn from the Quran that this wall will remain until the End Times, and one of the signs of the end times is that Gog and Magog will attack "from every hill", because God will bring the wall down.

Now that we discovered all parts of the earth, I want to ask Muslims, where is that iron and copper wall between two mountains? And who are that barbarian people that the wall is keeping at bay?

Murad
Guru
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:32 am
Location: Australia - Sydney

Re: Where is the wall that's keeping Gog and Magog at bay?

Post #2

Post by Murad »

hobaleo wrote:In chapter 18 of the Quran we learn that the One with Two Horns (who appears to be Alexander the Great) built a wall of iron and copper between "two mountains" to keep at bay an invading barbarian people called Gog and Magog. We further learn from the Quran that this wall will remain until the End Times, and one of the signs of the end times is that Gog and Magog will attack "from every hill", because God will bring the wall down.

Now that we discovered all parts of the earth, I want to ask Muslims, where is that iron and copper wall between two mountains? And who are that barbarian people that the wall is keeping at bay?
Hello hobaleo are you turkish? I can talk turkish if you request :) ?

Ya'juj & Ma'juj are believed to be descendants of Japheth, the Son of Noah, and are currently everywhere, i could be a decendant of Japheth & so could you; scholarly interpretations of the Sahih Muslim [Abu Saeed Khudri (R.A.)] asserts that muslims are automatically excluded from being categorised as one of the two tribes.

Like the concept of 'Messih ad Dajjal', where the Hadiths describe him as being "chained" up on an island west of Arabia, it is purely metaphorical & it should not be taken literally, i do not know any muslim who believes there is a "Secret Island" with the dajjal inside, similarly, i do not believe in the literal interpretation of Ya'juj & Ma'juj, where they are portrayed as "mindless barbarians" digging the same location for an earthly eternity.
Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Umar (R.A.) says that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said:

"Allah Ta'ala divided mankind into ten parts. Nine tenths constitute Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj while the remaining tenths constitutues the rest of mankind."

If Ya'juj & Ma'juj dig the same wall day after day until judgment day; & they do not realise that everyday the wall recovers itself, they would definetly be high class idiots :P The most appropriate interpretation is that Ya'juj & Ma'juj are not digging through a literal wall, but a metaphorical wall that means something entirely different; and once this barrier is breached then the two tribes will spread corruption throughout the world (It can refer to another world war). What does this "breach" mean? It is left down to interpretation & opinion; and it will definitely not happen until Isa(a.s) returns.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

darwinian
Student
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:35 pm

Post #3

Post by darwinian »

Murad

So, there really was no Zulqarnayn that built no real iron and copper wall to keep an invading barbarian people at bay to protect the people of some town? All that story with its dialogues and details about how the copper and iron was melted and molded, are they not to be taken literally? Why not? Only because the story sounds stupid to you? Well, old scriptures do contain stupid stories, so you should just accept it as the way it is.

Murad
Guru
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:32 am
Location: Australia - Sydney

Post #4

Post by Murad »

hobaleo wrote:Murad

So, there really was no Zulqarnayn that built no real iron and copper wall to keep an invading barbarian people at bay to protect the people of some town?
No there was a Dhul-Qarnayn, what exactly he "erected" (If you believe it was physical), whether it was the Great Walls of China or the Iron gates that guarded Scythian, is left to speculation. I do not take it literally just like i do not take the Dajjal being on an island east of Arabia literally; God & Magog are not physically "Imprisoned":
Abdullah ibn Umar narrated that Rasulullah(SAW) said:
"Allah Ta'ala divided mankind into ten parts. Nine tenths constitute Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj while the remaining tenths constitutues the rest of mankind."
Obviously there are not billions of men trapped inside a physical wall, but they are metaphorically blocked by a force that would be destroyed near the last hour.

hobaleo wrote: All that story with its dialogues and details about how the copper and iron was melted and molded, are they not to be taken literally? Why not? Only because the story sounds stupid to you? Well, old scriptures do contain stupid stories, so you should just accept it as the way it is.
I did not say it is a stupid story, you are putting words into my mouth; i said anyone who digs in the same spot for an earthly eternity is stupid thus i do not believe it to be a literal wall; & the narrations of Abdullah Ibn Umar (r.a) make it clear that Gog & Magog are around us.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

darwinian
Student
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:35 pm

Post #5

Post by darwinian »

Once we start taking what sounds impossible and stupid not literally, then why stop there at the iron and copper wall that Alexander the Great supposedly built that's nowhere to be found? Then we can start taking afterlife as a metaphor too. Heaven and Hell as metaphors. And even God himself as a metaphor. Because once you admit and enter this path where this book is not to be taken all literally, then how do we know where to stop taking things metaphorically?

Murad
Guru
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:32 am
Location: Australia - Sydney

Post #6

Post by Murad »

hobaleo wrote:Once we start taking what sounds impossible and stupid not literally, then why stop there at the iron and copper wall that Alexander the Great supposedly built that's nowhere to be found? Then we can start taking afterlife as a metaphor too. Heaven and Hell as metaphors. And even God himself as a metaphor. Because once you admit and enter this path where this book is not to be taken all literally, then how do we know where to stop taking things metaphorically?
I have no problem with a muslim believing in the literal interpretation, but as i've shown you, the Sahih Hadiths make it clear that they are not "Physically" bound by a wall, as Gog & Magog outnumber the muslims 9 to 1.

The very nature of the Quran is metaphorical & uses symbolism & metaphores, for example:
We will advance on the actions they have done and make them scattered specks of dust. (Surat al-Furqan, 23)
Differentiating metaphores from literal interpretations are quite easy, and you can understand that it's "Metaphorical" when there is some story behind it:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am the King: where are the kings of the earth?" '
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

Mr. Nice
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:00 am

Allah knows best!

Post #7

Post by Mr. Nice »

before giving my point of view on the matter, i just like to say that Allah know's best when it comes to subject like this, we/humans can only understand it, according to our knowledge and believe. This is the beauty of quran only wise can understand it, we rest can only interprete it according to our understandings.

According to my understanding, i think this is really deep subject, and all things mentioned are metaphorical. gog and magog is the sins/evil/bad things/bad people in the world. and if you look at today's world, you know what it mean, the wars, killings, murders in today's world wage by one nation and another, is what it all means.

people in old age's used to lives in tribes and communities, so referring them by one name i.e. gog and magog doesn't surprise anyone, as it is already mentioned that they are human beings and from the son of Noah (so we know that they don't have any aliens like features or body shape). They were like all the other human beings.

We already know that Zul-qarnayn was very strict in rewarding those who were right and harsh to those who were evil and did wrong. So the wall and the people behind it is just a metaphor, that says that he was able to control the whole world and enforce strict rules, reward those who did good and punished those who did bad. but there were still people who were in large numbers still involved in bad activities. so he just forced them to live in one place by enforcing a boundary around them. But as the time pass by, they are slowly slowly increasing in numbers (bad people in society) and one day the ratio of bad to good people will be 9:1 meaning good people will be very limited in numbers and all the world will be surrounded by murderers, looters, thieves, rapers, greedy and bad people and good people will not be able to keep themself safe from them, so Hazrat Isa (Jesus) will take them on top of mountain and pray to god and all the other people will be infected by disease and will be killed by it.

And if the story is true and all can be taken literal there is 70-80% possibility that they are hidden somewhere below. and Allah don't want use or them to see us. or maybe they can still see sky and planes etc when they pass by in the sky, but if we look down we can only see mountains and such and not be able to see where they are.

Image

But i think it is all metaphorical and only people who really learn the subject and know what everything means can come to conclusion.

***sorry for my bad english, hope you understand everything, i am not native. and yes i am muslim, but not very good one (meaning hardcore, or one who do whatever it takes to follow strict rules of islam).

Shukran.

Post Reply