Sonni and Shi'eh

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Yusef
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Sonni and Shi'eh

Post #1

Post by Yusef »

Salam,
What's the meaning of them?
Shi'eh means "the follower"
The Prophet(S.A) said:
"In the future my nation will be 73beliefs, and each of them say We are the truth! but just one of them is the original..."
Well, which of them is the real Shi'eh of the Prophet?
Let's go do discuss for find the real Sonnat.
*Notic: we should not search the FOLLOWERS of beliefs! we should search the DOCTRINE of beliefs.
Salam.
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Re: qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #21

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Burninglight wrote:
LaaIlahaIllAllah wrote:check this out Yusuf:

I listened to the video. It was annoying to hear the broken glass. No, I don't think of begotten when you mention son. This is just your way of further patronizing me by presuming to know what I think.
It was more intended for Yusuf since it was a Sunni-Shi'i debate but I guess you might have benefited from it too. I also found the glass thing pretty annoying.

Yea, I was joking about the begotten thing and don't really think that you think 'begotten' every time you hear 'son'.
I don't really want to argue with you. The Bible says "The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I am not sure if you understand what that verses means. It wasn't Jesus that said it, but it is written that Jesus said, "I am the way, truth and the life" I believe Yehshua. Jesus didn't say "I show the way" like all other prophets. Jesus said "I am" He said He was before Abraham.
Yea, as he went on to say "no one can come to the Father but through me" I think is Islamically correct. Because if you're not gonna go through the prophet then you're done for, and will never find God.
I could only plead with you to look at the way I see Him. Look carefully at the way a Christians truly sees Jesus. This link will show how we Christians know Him. The question is do you know Him or about Him? The Bible says to know Him (as He really is) is to have eternal life.
I cannot turn back after I was guided because I would be making a lie against God. As prophet Shu'ayb (peace be upon him) said to his people who persisted in disbelief:

{"We would have invented against Allah a lie if we returned to your religion after Allah had saved us from it. And it is not for us to return to it except that Allah , our Lord, should will. Our Lord has encompassed all things in knowledge. Upon Allah we have relied. Our Lord, decide between us and our people in truth, and You are the best of those who give decision."}
[ Surat Al-'A'araf/7, v. 89 ]

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Re: qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #22

Post by Burninglight »

LaaIlahaIllAllah wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
LaaIlahaIllAllah wrote:check this out Yusuf:

I listened to the video. It was annoying to hear the broken glass. No, I don't think of begotten when you mention son. This is just your way of further patronizing me by presuming to know what I think.
It was more intended for Yusuf since it was a Sunni-Shi'i debate but I guess you might have benefited from it too. I also found the glass thing pretty annoying.

Yea, I was joking about the begotten thing and don't really think that you think 'begotten' every time you hear 'son'.
I don't really want to argue with you. The Bible says "The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I am not sure if you understand what that verses means. It wasn't Jesus that said it, but it is written that Jesus said, "I am the way, truth and the life" I believe Yehshua. Jesus didn't say "I show the way" like all other prophets. Jesus said "I am" He said He was before Abraham.
Yea, as he went on to say "no one can come to the Father but through me" I think is Islamically correct. Because if you're not gonna go through the prophet then you're done for, and will never find God.
I could only plead with you to look at the way I see Him. Look carefully at the way a Christians truly sees Jesus. This link will show how we Christians know Him. The question is do you know Him or about Him? The Bible says to know Him (as He really is) is to have eternal life.
I cannot turn back after I was guided because I would be making a lie against God. As prophet Shu'ayb (peace be upon him) said to his people who persisted in disbelief:

{"We would have invented against Allah a lie if we returned to your religion after Allah had saved us from it. And it is not for us to return to it except that Allah , our Lord, should will. Our Lord has encompassed all things in knowledge. Upon Allah we have relied. Our Lord, decide between us and our people in truth, and You are the best of those who give decision."}
[ Surat Al-'A'araf/7, v. 89 ]
I respect your choice to continue as you are, but did you look at the video link I sent to give you an idea how I see Christ? I too couldn't turn back after what I've seen. I believe for some it is going to have to take the return of Christ to set the record straight.

You are right about going through a prophet to get to God, but my understanding is that prophet is only through Yehsuha for all times and all peoples. I can't deny what I believe anymore than you can. So that is why the QURAN SAYS TO YOU BE YOUR RELIGION AND TO ME BE MINE, BUT both religions can't be right. I believe that the Bible came first and that God preserved enough of His word to keep us on track. Anything that contradicts previous Scripture is and should be suspect.

I for one do not believe that man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's power to preserve it. Muslims are asking me to believe what is not logical. Think carefully, if God couldn't keep his word before Muhammad, He certainly wouldn't be able to do it after Muhammad; besides, the burning of the Quran is suspect; maybe it did confirm what was already written in the Bible and Uthman corrupted it, because Muhammad never said the Bible was corrupted.

Muhammad criticized people and NEVER the Script. He mentioned those who sell out on the word for a small price, but this is referring to during his time. Well, the Torah and the Gospel (Injeel) is still in tact the way it was two thousand years ago for anyone to check. Why can't Muslims see this?

Why don't Muslims believe when God said of Yeheshua "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please, listen to Him?" Even Allah said in the Quran "Had I wanted a son I could...." Jesus calls God His father and the father calls Jesus His Son. I don't understand how this is possible, but how can I say "God you cannot have a son you are a liar?"

The Psalms say before Muhammad was born; "My Word is established forever in the heavens" Who one earth was powerful enough to corrupt what God had already established forever in the heavens?

Muslims talk much of logic so help me understand how a knowledgable Christian can believe a Muslim's claims especially when the Bible warns us that false prophet will come and deceive many? Look at Joseph Smith, instead of a Quran, he came up with the Book of Mormon that plagiarizes from the KJV of the Bible. How I know is he copied the translational errors that are in them. There is a lot to prahy about.

PBUY :)

The oneness of God wasn't anything new before Muhammad came. The Jews and the Christians always believe God is one. I believe there is only one God, and I will not call God a liar!

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To you yours, to me mine.

Post #23

Post by Yusef »

LaIlahaIllAllah wrote:First of all, the thing you claim ibn-Taymiyyah said, is not shirk
First of all you are a moshrik if believe that.
..and wrote:Didn't you hear that every Bid'ah is misguidance and every misguidance in in the hellfire?
So why Omar made Bid'ah? Why you do Vodu and Say pray this form?
..and wrote:Then why do you follow the 12 Imam belief when it's not in the Quran?
Are you a decoder of Qor'an??
..and wrote:And he will be relatively known amongst the people so they would probably know he is not a Shia
He is real Shi'ah(the same real sonnah)
..and wrote:Also, do you have a chart that traces your family line back to the prophet (peace be upon him)? I have heard many people claiming this but few actually have the lines recorded.
That's Haraam if everyone say I'm Sayyed(from the generation of the Prophet(a.s))! How you don't know??
Yes, we have. You should ask the commentaters of the persian channels of Ahle-Sonnat who say we are Sayyed!
..and wrote:I am generalizing here but I'm talking about how shias say this and that about them, like they hated the Sahaba, were infallible, are 'dominant over every atom in the universe' like Khomeini put it and etc
The first priority of all Muslims(except Nasebies) is AhluBayt(a.s), and Muslims say down with against them(anyone who be),
but the modern Shi'ahs say that the Sahabah were against them, but the modern Sonnies say that they weren't against them!
You say that any hadith that says against modern Sonnah, isn't Sahhihh,
and modern Shi'ahs say that they're Sahhihh!!
So we should await coming back the Mahdi(a.s) for discover the differences.

Hey friend!
Have you ever seen one who has a best car[German, Japanese, Italian, American, Korean], then change it with a french car??
So never a follower of Shi'eh converts to a follower of Sonnah!
Because Shi'eh is the same real Sonnah of the Prophet(s.a).

* The logic and wisdom had told me:
- God is the one
- He Is Greater than greatest
- He Isn't matterial and visible
- He mights anythings
- and believed in Taqyah, Tavakkol, Bada'
- and more..
and in the past, I didn't know about any religions and beliefs even Shi'ah!
But when searched the religions and beliefs, then discovered that Shi'ah believes all of them!
So accepted Shi'ah as the best way for arrive at the Evolution.
Then from two years ago up to now I read more than 4000 Hadiths and absolutely accepted these beliefs of Shi'eh:
- Imamah
- Mot'ah
- Al-Aalam Al-Zarr
- Al-Imam Al-Mahdi
(ajjal Allah ta'ala farajahoshshariif)
- and more..

Also, from three month ago up to now, I watch the persian religious channels,
the channels of Christianity of course Shirk;
The channels of Ahle-Sonnah just can deny the false followers of Shi'ah,
but the channels of Shi'ah can deny the doctrine of THIS Ahle-Sonnah!

* * If from God ask us: You must choose just one of these radio selection, and one of them is absolute truth and one other is absolute untruth:

(1) The Jesus wasn't a Prophet, and The Imams[Twelver] weren't Imams
(2) They are god(Na'udoBAllah)

If we have to choose one of them, I will choose the number (2) immediately![Na'udoBAllah!]

Hey dear!
Lakom dinakom waliedin
To you, your own belief, and to me mine.
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

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This is Shi'eh-Sonni!!!

Post #24

Post by Yusef »

Hey friends!
Here is Shi'eh-Sonni debating!
Please go HERE for Christianity-Islam debating.

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Re: qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #25

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Burninglight wrote:
I respect your choice to continue as you are, but did you look at the video link I sent to give you an idea how I see Christ? I too couldn't turn back after what I've seen. I believe for some it is going to have to take the return of Christ to set the record straight.
Yea, I checked it out. I also agree with the return of Christ thing.
You are right about going through a prophet to get to God, but my understanding is that prophet is only through Yehsuha for all times and all peoples. I can't deny what I believe anymore than you can. So that is why the QURAN SAYS TO YOU BE YOUR RELIGION AND TO ME BE MINE, BUT both religions can't be right. I believe that the Bible came first and that God preserved enough of His word to keep us on track. Anything that contradicts previous Scripture is and should be suspect.

I for one do not believe that man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's power to preserve it. Muslims are asking me to believe what is not logical. Think carefully, if God couldn't keep his word before Muhammad, He certainly wouldn't be able to do it after Muhammad; besides, the burning of the Quran is suspect; maybe it did confirm what was already written in the Bible and Uthman corrupted it, because Muhammad never said the Bible was corrupted.
The thing is, it's not that God "could not", but just "did not" for a reason. Which is, as you know that we believe that, the other prophets and their revelations were meant for their time and place.
Muhammad criticized people and NEVER the Script. He mentioned those who sell out on the word for a small price, but this is referring to during his time. Well, the Torah and the Gospel (Injeel) is still in tact the way it was two thousand years ago for anyone to check. Why can't Muslims see this?
There are verses in the Quran which speak about those who "write the scripture with their own hand and then claim it is from Allah" and other ones similar to this. I take this as what it is.

Also because there are things which totally are contrary to our beliefs, such as the 50,070 people killed thing and more, no point of listing them since the differences are obvious.
Why don't Muslims believe when God said of Yeheshua "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please, listen to Him?" Even Allah said in the Quran "Had I wanted a son I could...." Jesus calls God His father and the father calls Jesus His Son. I don't understand how this is possible, but how can I say "God you cannot have a son you are a liar?"
Well this is partly connected to our belief that the other scripture is corrupted so this basically ends it. But also, we say that God does Godly things, not Ungodly things such as becoming a human being and/or other creation of His, we believe that God is far Above that.

The verse that you are referring to says that if Allah wanted a son he could have chosen something/someone out of His creation. First, this is far from 'begetting' a son and impregnating a woman and with this verse He is refuting those who say Allah has a son. Second, Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

{Had Allah willed to take a son (or offspring), He could
have chosen whom He willed out of those whom He
created.
meaning, the matter would not have been as they
claim.
This is a conditional sentence which does not
imply that this happened or that it is permitted;
indeed, it is impossible. The aim is only to point
out the ignorance of their claims.
It is like the Ayat:
ÙŽ
Had We intended to take a pastime, We could
surely have taken it from Us, if We were going to
do (that). (21:17)

Say: "If the Most Gracious had a son, then I am
the first of worshippers.'' (43:81)
All of these Ayat are conditional, and it is
permissible to form a conditional sentence
referring to something that is impossible if it
serves the purposes of the speaker.}


Also, prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) -in the Bible - taught the people to start praying with "O, our Father". So to me this points out that we are all children of God in the 'spiritual sense'.
The Psalms say before Muhammad was born; "My Word is established forever in the heavens" Who one earth was powerful enough to corrupt what God had already established forever in the heavens?

Muslims talk much of logic so help me understand how a knowledgable Christian can believe a Muslim's claims especially when the Bible warns us that false prophet will come and deceive many? Look at Joseph Smith, instead of a Quran, he came up with the Book of Mormon that plagiarizes from the KJV of the Bible. How I know is he copied the translational errors that are in them. There is a lot to prahy about.

PBUY :)
From Muslim perspective, the original Taurat and Injeel are the Word of Allah (Azza wa Jal). These are not necessarily changed. The real Taurat is still the Taurat unchanged and the real Injeel is still the real Injeel unchanged. They were not sent down as ink on books but as 'oral' revelation. So even if they write it down and write something else down, this isn't really changing the revelation b/c it is still the same and in God's Knowledge. For example if i write a book and I have it with me. And somebody writes a similar one based off this but with many changes, my book is still not changed but the other thing is something different.

Anyways, just from a Christians or Jew perspective if you take this to mean the ink on the page cannot change then you would be lying to yourself because of the hundreds of small contradictions in the Bible plus the other not-so-small ones. Such as one says prophet Solomon (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had 40,000 stalls for horses and another place speaking about same thing says he had 4,000. Here the ink is changed but the original revelation is still intact and I think both of us can agree on that despite our differences of belief.

This is, of course, with the condition that you believe that God's revelation cannot have such contradictions. But if you say that it has errors because it was only 'inspired' by God and written through the experiences of the scribes so they can make mistakes - this would count as changing the Word of God if you stick with this view.
The oneness of God wasn't anything new before Muhammad came. The Jews and the Christians always believe God is one. I believe there is only one God, and I will not call God a liar!
Yes, this is true but the Jews never ever believed in Trinity but most Christians do. I won't call God a liar either but look at it this way: if someone writes something and says it is from God then I will say this is a lie. I am not calling God a liar but the person who made it up - which is not God.


Peace.

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Re: To you yours, to me mine.

Post #26

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Yusef wrote:
LaIlahaIllAllah wrote:First of all, the thing you claim ibn-Taymiyyah said, is not shirk
First of all you are a moshrik if believe that.
No "First of all", how is that statement making partners with Allah (Azza wa Jal) and second of all you ignorant raafidi, (yes, I'm annoyed again and you will see y at bottom) WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? GIMMIE THE BOOK AND VOLUME AND NUMBER! You freakin liar, your whole religion is about lies. Your scholars says "9/10 of our religion is Taqiyya".

Stop making claims without backing them up you twisted person.
..and wrote:Didn't you hear that every Bid'ah is misguidance and every misguidance in in the hellfire?
So why Omar made Bid'ah? Why you do Vodu and Say pray this form?
?? We have Sahih ahadeeth about how the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did wudhu and prayed. There is also a Sahih hadeeth about Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) doing wudhu and saying "this is how the prophet (pbuh) did wudhu", So we following Ali (ra) more than you!!

..and wrote:Also, do you have a chart that traces your family line back to the prophet (peace be upon him)? I have heard many people claiming this but few actually have the lines recorded.
That's Haraam if everyone say I'm Sayyed(from the generation of the Prophet(a.s))! How you don't know??
Yes, we have. You should ask the commentaters of the persian channels of Ahle-Sonnat who say we are Sayyed!
Write your lineage down here. Also, most of you Shias commit shirk and your RELIGION is basically BASED on shirk, calling Ali (ra) FOR HELP! This is shirk! PRAYING TO DEAD PEOPLE IN GRAVES! And prostrating to the graves! SHIRK! Furthermore, like EVERY Irani and Paki says they are sayyids. AND Like I said before when you go off the Straight Path your family ties are CUT and MEAN NOTHING! So even IF you are a sayyid, it's not gonna help you cause you fell off!!
..and wrote:I am generalizing here but I'm talking about how shias say this and that about them, like they hated the Sahaba, were infallible, are 'dominant over every atom in the universe' like Khomeini put it and etc
The first priority of all Muslims(except Nasebies) is AhluBayt(a.s), and Muslims say down with against them(anyone who be),
but the modern Shi'ahs say that the Sahabah were against them, but the modern Sonnies say that they weren't against them!
You say that any hadith that says against modern Sonnah, isn't Sahhihh,
and modern Shi'ahs say that they're Sahhihh!!
So we should await coming back the Mahdi(a.s) for discover the differences.
Do we really need the Mahdi to know that a hadeeth that says the Quran is 17,000 verses is FALSE? Do you??? Believing such a thing is Sahih is Kufr!!

Answer this question: Do you believe that this hadeeth is Sahih or false? Don't tell me I don't know, gimmie a yes or no.
So never a follower of Shi'eh converts to a follower of Sonnah!
LOL! It's happening every day! My friend's father was a Shi'a before but Alhamdulillah, due to Allah's Grace, he came back to the Straight Path. They used to tell him such lies and deceit, lemme give you an example:

When he was a child, the Shia elders took some toy away from him. He asked there where is it? They said UMAR took it! Umar (ra) the Sahabi!! He asked them, how do I get it back? They said CURSE HIM IN YOUR PRAYERS!! And he was a child who did not know anybetter so he did as they told him. And when he did this THEY GAVE HIM BACK THE TOY! But Alhamdulillah, as he grew older he realized the and lies and hate of this religion.
* * If from God ask us: You must choose just one of these radio selection, and one of them is absolute truth and one other is absolute untruth:

(1) The Jesus wasn't a Prophet, and The Imams[Twelver] weren't Imams
(2) They are god(Na'udoBAllah)

If we have to choose one of them, I will choose the number (2) immediately![Na'udoBAllah!]
Are you kidding me here? I advise you to stop watching those Christian or Atheist radio shows, look how they are making you think! Actually, even a Christian wouldn't make such a question and insult to Allah!!!
Hey dear!
Lakom dinakom waliedin
To you, your own belief, and to me mine.
After I read this, this is what really annoyed me. Before I realized that I could use this verse and chapter for arrogant Shias but I stopped myself because that is too much. But I see that you evil raafidis don't even care about such things. Even though Shias commit shirk every day I did not want to do it b/c I recognized there might be some normal ones out there but I see that there are prolly none and they are just doing taqiyya like you.

Shame on you filthy person who follows raafidi priests who curse the Mother of Believers when Allah defended her in Quran, and curse the Sahaba when Allah said He is pleased with them!!

Shame on you filthy monster who follows raafidi priests who say that the Noble Quran is corrupted!!

Shame on you filthy trash who follows raafidi priests who worship graves and call upon dead people, committing shirk everyday. Prostrating to the graves of Khomeini and other devils such as him.

Shame on you pigs who follow the raafidi priests who say the Prophets and Imams know the all of the Unseen by themselves when Allah (Azza wa Jal) says in Quran that none but Him knows it and He only reveals some of it to His prophets and they did not know it before.

Shame on you filthy raafidi who innovates in the Deen of Allah (Azza wa Jal) even though nothing like them are found in the Quran!!

Shame on you filthy snake who follows those you are killing the Muslims every day.

Shame on you dirty rat who supports those Alawites in Syria who are the result of Shi'ism. You support them, who openly worship Ali (ra) and Bashar al-assad in the streets against the Muslims who worship Allah (Azza wa Jal) and associate none with Him.
You are exposed here, throughout history the Shias have ALWAYS joined the KUFFAR in war against the MUSLIMS, such as crusaders, tatars/mongols, etc.

Shame on you backstabbers who follow your forefathers who betrayed and killed Hussein (ra).

Shame on you ignorants who follow the religion created by Abdullah ibn Saba the hypocrite Yemeni Jew. Ali (ra) tried to exterminate these people that are making lies about him, he succeed capturing and executing some but the main culprit and founder got away.


..and wrote:Then why do you follow the 12 Imam belief when it's not in the Quran?
Are you a decoder of Qor'an??
You fool, you expose your foolishness and raafidiness right here.
I DO NOT NEED TO BE A "DECODER OF QURAN" TO SEE THAT THERE EXISTS NO VERSE WHICH SPEAKS OF THIS IMAMAH INNOVATION!!!

Find one unambiguous verse that speaks of this 12 Imam belief and I will become one of the raafidha like you.

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Re: qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #27

Post by Burninglight »

LaaIlahaIllAllah wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
I respect your choice to continue as you are, but did you look at the video link I sent to give you an idea how I see Christ? I too couldn't turn back after what I've seen. I believe for some it is going to have to take the return of Christ to set the record straight.
Yea, I checked it out. I also agree with the return of Christ thing.
You are right about going through a prophet to get to God, but my understanding is that prophet is only through Yehsuha for all times and all peoples. I can't deny what I believe anymore than you can. So that is why the QURAN SAYS TO YOU BE YOUR RELIGION AND TO ME BE MINE, BUT both religions can't be right. I believe that the Bible came first and that God preserved enough of His word to keep us on track. Anything that contradicts previous Scripture is and should be suspect.

I for one do not believe that man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's power to preserve it. Muslims are asking me to believe what is not logical. Think carefully, if God couldn't keep his word before Muhammad, He certainly wouldn't be able to do it after Muhammad; besides, the burning of the Quran is suspect; maybe it did confirm what was already written in the Bible and Uthman corrupted it, because Muhammad never said the Bible was corrupted.
The thing is, it's not that God "could not", but just "did not" for a reason. Which is, as you know that we believe that, the other prophets and their revelations were meant for their time and place.
Muhammad criticized people and NEVER the Script. He mentioned those who sell out on the word for a small price, but this is referring to during his time. Well, the Torah and the Gospel (Injeel) is still in tact the way it was two thousand years ago for anyone to check. Why can't Muslims see this?
There are verses in the Quran which speak about those who "write the scripture with their own hand and then claim it is from Allah" and other ones similar to this. I take this as what it is.

Also because there are things which totally are contrary to our beliefs, such as the 50,070 people killed thing and more, no point of listing them since the differences are obvious.
Why don't Muslims believe when God said of Yeheshua "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please, listen to Him?" Even Allah said in the Quran "Had I wanted a son I could...." Jesus calls God His father and the father calls Jesus His Son. I don't understand how this is possible, but how can I say "God you cannot have a son you are a liar?"
Well this is partly connected to our belief that the other scripture is corrupted so this basically ends it. But also, we say that God does Godly things, not Ungodly things such as becoming a human being and/or other creation of His, we believe that God is far Above that.

The verse that you are referring to says that if Allah wanted a son he could have chosen something/someone out of His creation. First, this is far from 'begetting' a son and impregnating a woman and with this verse He is refuting those who say Allah has a son. Second, Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

{Had Allah willed to take a son (or offspring), He could
have chosen whom He willed out of those whom He
created.
meaning, the matter would not have been as they
claim.
This is a conditional sentence which does not
imply that this happened or that it is permitted;
indeed, it is impossible. The aim is only to point
out the ignorance of their claims.
It is like the Ayat:
ÙŽ
Had We intended to take a pastime, We could
surely have taken it from Us, if We were going to
do (that). (21:17)

Say: "If the Most Gracious had a son, then I am
the first of worshippers.'' (43:81)
All of these Ayat are conditional, and it is
permissible to form a conditional sentence
referring to something that is impossible if it
serves the purposes of the speaker.}


Also, prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) -in the Bible - taught the people to start praying with "O, our Father". So to me this points out that we are all children of God in the 'spiritual sense'.
The Psalms say before Muhammad was born; "My Word is established forever in the heavens" Who one earth was powerful enough to corrupt what God had already established forever in the heavens?

Muslims talk much of logic so help me understand how a knowledgable Christian can believe a Muslim's claims especially when the Bible warns us that false prophet will come and deceive many? Look at Joseph Smith, instead of a Quran, he came up with the Book of Mormon that plagiarizes from the KJV of the Bible. How I know is he copied the translational errors that are in them. There is a lot to prahy about.

PBUY :)
From Muslim perspective, the original Taurat and Injeel are the Word of Allah (Azza wa Jal). These are not necessarily changed. The real Taurat is still the Taurat unchanged and the real Injeel is still the real Injeel unchanged. They were not sent down as ink on books but as 'oral' revelation. So even if they write it down and write something else down, this isn't really changing the revelation b/c it is still the same and in God's Knowledge. For example if i write a book and I have it with me. And somebody writes a similar one based off this but with many changes, my book is still not changed but the other thing is something different.

Anyways, just from a Christians or Jew perspective if you take this to mean the ink on the page cannot change then you would be lying to yourself because of the hundreds of small contradictions in the Bible plus the other not-so-small ones. Such as one says prophet Solomon (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had 40,000 stalls for horses and another place speaking about same thing says he had 4,000. Here the ink is changed but the original revelation is still intact and I think both of us can agree on that despite our differences of belief.

This is, of course, with the condition that you believe that God's revelation cannot have such contradictions. But if you say that it has errors because it was only 'inspired' by God and written through the experiences of the scribes so they can make mistakes - this would count as changing the Word of God if you stick with this view.
The oneness of God wasn't anything new before Muhammad came. The Jews and the Christians always believe God is one. I believe there is only one God, and I will not call God a liar!
Yes, this is true but the Jews never ever believed in Trinity but most Christians do. I won't call God a liar either but look at it this way: if someone writes something and says it is from God then I will say this is a lie. I am not calling God a liar but the person who made it up - which is not God.


Peace.
Jehovah Witness don't believe in the trinity either, but they believe Jesus is the son of God. The word trinity is not in the Bible. But The father is, the Holy Spirit is mentioned as being God and Jesus is mentioned as being the son of God. Don't call that a trinity is fine with me; I don't have to either, but the concept of the tri unity of God has always been in the Scripture and didn't originate with the Council of Nicea. You simply have a problem with the Bible. Just admit the truth about that at least.
What I don't understand is why Allah didn't understand the Biblical concept of the trinity. He went as far as to say "Say not three" and identifies only two of the three correctly. He never knew that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Biblical trinity. He implies that the third was Mary when he questions Jesus "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" Now I know that Catholics call Mary the mother of God, but even they never considered her to be God or part of the trinity; more importantly, this concept of Mary is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Therefore, it is not true Biblical Christianity. Muhammad and Allah didn't know the truth of the heart of Christianity. For an all knowing Allah, that ignorance is inexcusable to me!
Jesus said I am the way, truth an life; He didn't say I show the way like all other prophets. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is the only way to God for all time, people and tongues and nations. This is very clear and significant. IMO, Islam is designed to self destruct, because of all its internal conflicts!

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Re: qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #28

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Burninglight wrote:Jehovah Witness don't believe in the trinity either, but they believe Jesus is the son of God. The word trinity is not in the Bible. But The father is, the Holy Spirit is mentioned as being God and Jesus is mentioned as being the son of God. Don't call that a trinity is fine with me; I don't have to either, but the concept of the tri unity of God has always been in the Scripture and didn't originate with the Council of Nicea.
I dunno what the first stuff has to to with what we were talking about..

If you are referring to "tri unity" concept was always found in NT then I agree with you but I disagree for OT, and I think the Jews are with me on this - This is what I meant by Jews and Muslims believe in *ONE* God, instead of 3 in 1.

Yes, I know its technically *one* still, but it's also 3 in 1 still......
You simply have a problem with the Bible. Just admit the truth about that at least.
Of course I have a problem with the Bible! Did I ever deny it? What Muslim actually likes the Bible?!
What I don't understand is why Allah didn't understand the Biblical concept of the trinity. He went as far as to say "Say not three" and identifies only two of the three correctly. He never knew that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Biblical trinity. He implies that the third was Mary when he questions Jesus "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" Now I know that Catholics call Mary the mother of God, but even they never considered her to be God or part of the trinity; more importantly, this concept of Mary is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Therefore, it is not true Biblical Christianity. Muhammad and Allah didn't know the truth of the heart of Christianity. For an all knowing Allah, that ignorance is inexcusable to me!
Jesus said I am the way, truth an life; He didn't say I show the way like all other prophets. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is the only way to God for all time, people and tongues and nations. This is very clear and significant.
All of your questions and concerns here have been answered in my previous posts so you can refer back to them. They might even be in a different thread, I forget, so you should check those out if you don't find it here.
IMO, Islam is designed to self destruct, because of all its internal conflicts!
I respect your opinion.

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Yusef
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Shi'ah & Sonni

Post #29

Post by Yusef »

LaIlahaIllAllah wrote:They aren't though.. We have a way way way better and more efficient system of grading the hadeeth which Shias didn't have until hundreds of years later and they took some of it from the Sunnis. Even still they did not learn enough and that is why we find scholars saying Quran is corrupt because your ahadeeth say so.
HaHa!!! Your own dominant scholars were students of The Imams(a.s)!
Abu-Hanifah, the imam of the belief of Hanafiyah was for two years, one of thousands student of the Imam Ja'far Al-Sadiq(a.s).
The Ahadith of the Imams(a.s) were the same Ahadith of the Prophet(s.a).
Just an our Ahadith book, Al-BiharAl-Anwar of Allamah Majlesi was more than 100 books!
..and wrote:You don't say those ahadeeth are wrong?? Are you talking about the ones that say the Quran is 17000 verses that Shia scholars marked authentic?? Sorry if I am misunderstanding because I think I am.
I've read the same olden book of the Al-Kafi, and you have zoom on just the same Hadith! but more of them has written the original Qor'an hadn't this arrangement for verses and chapters.
..and wrote:I did not hear that Shia Scholars removed those ahadeeth because TOP shia scholars such as al-majilisi are the ones that graded it Sahih
Yes, I watched a Shi'i channel that allways two persons call it, one Shi'eh and one Sonni, then the Sonni asked them about that, and the expert answered: "No! This same Uthmanic Qor'an is the same original without any corruption!"
..and wrote:that Abu bakr and Umar (ra) took out the chapters that speak about Ali (ra) (astaghfirullah). His teacher also shared the same view
? ? ? NEVER!
..and wrote:?? We have Sahih ahadeeth about how the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did wudhu and prayed. There is also a Sahih hadeeth about Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) doing wudhu and saying "this is how the prophet (pbuh) did wudhu", So we following Ali (ra) more than you!!
The modern Shi'ahs say like this so.
..and wrote:Write your lineage down here.
I don't have need to your believe.
..and wrote:calling Ali (ra) FOR HELP!
1- I never calling anyone except God for help such as false Shi'ahs.
2- Why you call doctor, worker, mechanic, and... for help??
3- When we call "Ya Ali", "YaHoo", "Ya (Imams and Prophets)" Salam and Salawat of Allah be upon them, that's no means that they are god[Na'udoBAllah!], We call them just for remember and regard them.
..and wrote:PRAYING TO DEAD PEOPLE IN GRAVES! And prostrating to the graves!
Yes, they're ignorantly moshrik and against Shi'ah and the Imams(a.s).
Also, I myself allways tell everyone for that.
..and wrote:Answer this question: Do you believe that this hadeeth is Sahih or false?
Allaho A'alam! I don't know! I'm not Imam and or Prophet!!
..and wrote:raafidi priests who curse the Mother of Believers
I never curse her and any sahabah except Abu-Sofiyan and Mo'aviah and Yazid(L.A.A)
..and wrote:raafidi priests who say the Prophets and Imams know the all of the Unseen
??? Where is this claim!!?
..and wrote:who supports those Alawites in Syria who are the result of Shi'ism.
Shame on them who suppoted Saddam(La'natoAllah alayh) for attack to Iran.
..and wrote:Shame on you ... who follow your forefathers who betrayed and killed Hussein (ra).
Yes, but no for our(Sayyids) forefathers
..and wrote:Shame on ... and ... and...
I'm glad that anyone such as you is against Shi'ah.

Mr. Burninglight! Here is just for Muslims. Please come HERE for hot debate of Christianity and Islam O:)
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

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Burninglight
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Thanks for the link

Post #30

Post by Burninglight »

Sorry about that, I'll stop posting here, but I am trying to understand what you guys are debating about.

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