Sonni and Shi'eh

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Yusef
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Sonni and Shi'eh

Post #1

Post by Yusef »

Salam,
What's the meaning of them?
Shi'eh means "the follower"
The Prophet(S.A) said:
"In the future my nation will be 73beliefs, and each of them say We are the truth! but just one of them is the original..."
Well, which of them is the real Shi'eh of the Prophet?
Let's go do discuss for find the real Sonnat.
*Notic: we should not search the FOLLOWERS of beliefs! we should search the DOCTRINE of beliefs.
Salam.
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Re: Hadiaths?

Post #11

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Burninglight wrote:I can see the unity between Muslims. If Uthman didn't burn the Qurans there would be even less unity. But there still are Muslims that just stick to the Quran only because the Sunnah has associations in it such as the last part of the Shahadah. In order to be a Muslim, you must mention the name of Muhammad with Allah. Christians don't have to mention the name of any non deity for their salvation. The Hadiths do not prove that Muhammad or any one less claimed he was a prophet. The evidence for this came after his death. I challenge any Muslim to prove this is wrong. Where are there any manuscripts documented that Muhammad was a prophet from the time he was alive?
Allah is the biggest problem in Islam, because he is the best of deceivers. No Muslim knows if they can trust Allah. Even Abu Bakr said to the affect I wouldn't trust the makr of Allah if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth. Allah cannot be trusted. He lied about Jesus to the Jews making it look like he died, but he also lied to the Arabs and the world by saying he didn't die. Allah shows that he didn't understand the Christian concept of the trinity. He implys that the trinity consisted of the father, mother and the son. He never mentioned the Holy Spirit. I could never follow an ignorant god. Why should anyone fear such a deceiving god? Satan is known to be the father of lies. I see such a correlation that and the best of deceivers
Shirk or associating partners with Allah (Azza wa Jal) is saying there is something else besides Him that is worthy of worship. I do not know why you feel that believing in the Messenger of Allah is shirk..... But different strokes for different folks i guess...

The Hadiths don't prove that he was a prophet or that he claimed to be a prophet? You have some reading to do, my son.

"Christians don't mention the name of any non-deity for their salvation"

Uhmmm... Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)? Lol..
Jesus (peace be upon him) himself refutes Trinity in the Bible. He says that only the Father knows the date of Judgement Day, not even the Son, nor angels or anyone. And we both know that God is All-Knowing and only He knows when Judgement Day is, therefore the "Father" is the One True God that sent Jesus (peace and blessings of God be upon him) and the two false deities besides God that you worship are refuted by your own 1/3 god lol.

The rest of the stuff is just biased nonsense from your own opinions.

The "Quran got the Trinity wrong" thing is so old and is a very sad attempt by Christian missionaries to prove Quran wrong. I admire their perseverance, though sadly for them they will end up in the hellfire (as if being refuted and humiliated in this world isn't enuf, right?). Lemme school you real quick: the Quran was not even talking about the Trinity in that verse. The Trinity was talked about before, the verse said "Don't say three". So sad indeed.

You're just sour cuz the one you worship was tempted by the devil and your own holy book says God cannot be tempted, LOL!

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Re: misbehaviour

Post #12

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Yusef wrote:
LaIlahaIllAllah wrote:you are one sick son of mut'ah by your raafidi priest
- How do you know that I'm son of mut'eh and follower of raafizi priest??
- How you say an affront to me?
- How you aren't afraid of Allah?
I was very annoyed and angry at the lies that you have written. I am afraid of Allah (Azza wa Jal) and that's why I want to defend the Sunnah and Quran and Islam from the innovations that your forefathers try to introduce to Islam and practice while calling it "Islam". Didn't you hear that every Bid'ah is misguidance and every misguidance in in the hellfire?
Why you say ignorantly an affront to your Prophet(s.a) and your own first Khalifeh[AbuBakr]?
The Imam 6th, Imam Ja'far Sadeq(a.s) was son of "Omme Farweh" the doughter of Qasem ibn Mohammad ibn Abu Bakr. And he is my grand grand father.

- How you say in each one of the Say prays:
AllahomaSalliAlaMohammadenWaAleMohammad
and say this affront to me?
Didn't you hear/read that family ties are broken when people turn off the Straight Path? When the descendants go from Guidance to misguidance the family ties are broken and mean nothing.

Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) says (translation of meaning):

And Nuh (Noah) called upon his Lord and said, "O my Lord! Verily, my son is of my family! And certainly, Your Promise is true, and You are the Most Just of the judges."

He said: "O Nuh (Noah)! Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge! I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants."
[ 11:45-46 ]

When you follow this Shi'a religion which makes halaal what Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) made haraam, and you follow them in that which they do, your family ties (if true) do not benefit you and are severed.

Secondly, I have never met a Twelver Shia that does not think Abu Bakr (ra) stole the khilafah from Ali (ra). The only ones of the Shia that acknowledge the first 3 khalifas' virtues - that I know of - are some Zaidi Shia. Even though they do believe it shoulda been Ali (ra).

Also, I have failed to find this Imami doctrine in the Quran, so how can be part of Islam since it is such an important thing - according to shias - yet Allah (Azza wa Jal) didn't even mention it in the Quran!? You can try to twist and distort verses but the fact is shias mostly rely on ambiguous verses to try and prove this. There is not one unambiguous, unequivocal verse in the Quran which speaks of this 12 Imam thing. It is like telling the Christian to find where Jesus (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said "I am God" in the Bible. They will never find it, cause it ain't there!

You must think very highly of yourself that when somebody offends you personally, you think that they are offending the prophet and the sahabas!
- How do you know that The Mahdi(in your belief), will born in my generation?
I do not understand what you are asking here.
I watched an Islamic channel TV that showed the book of "Ibn-Taymieh" that has written:
"...and God Has red clothes..."(Nau'doBAllah)
What reference did they give? Book, volume, chapter, page number?
When I called that???
??? I quoted you! Look at your second post, this is what one part says:
They[Wahhabies] believe matterial God who has a white ass and comes down on the earth and goes up to the sky[Na'udoBAllah]
Astaghfirullah, is this the kind of language you speak with about Allah (Azza wa Jal)? And everything you said here is a lie, Sunnis don't believe this. That is how I know you're following a raafidi priest.
Why you believe that the behaviours of the people of Shi'eh are the same behaviours of the commands of doctrine of Shi'eh?
? I am talking about the doctrine, not the behaviours of your people!

I beg you to go read your most authentic ahadeeth book: Al-Kafi and look what is in there!! If you are a true Muslim you will renounce this and leave that kufr!! Your scholars believe that the Quran is corrupted!!! It is in that book and it is graded authentic by Shias!! This is kufrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr to the max, how is this possible for a Muslim to believe?

Do you know why they say this? It is because, as I mentioned before, your Imami doctrine is not found in the Quran. So the founders of Shi'ism said that Abu Bakr (ra)and Umar (ra) took out the pages which spoke of Ali (ra) being the chosen Imam, etc.

I should be asking YOU why you make affronts to Ahlul Bayt?? Why do you lie about them and against them? Why do you make these things up? Why are your ahadeeth books full of lies that are attributed to them? They did not say those things, those are lies. If a knowledgable Sunni Muhaddith went through it, then like 3/4 of that whole Al Kafi book would probably turn out fake!

Look I will give you references also:

Bismillah.

Salam alaikum.

We know that in present Quran there is nnot even 7000 verses. Site http://www.quran.us says: The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346

In accordance to sahih shia hadith, there were 17000 verses in Quran!

Kulayni. “Usool al-Kafy� vol. 2, Kitaab: Fadlul-Qur’an, narration # 28:

“Ali b. al-Hakam from Hishaam b. Salim from Abu Abdullah [as] saying: Verily, the Qur’an which Gibril [as] came up with to Muhammad [saw] is 17,000 verses�.

Here scan: (scanned pic)


Majleese in “Mirat al uqool� said narration “muwathaq�.

Here scan: (scanned pic)

Majlisi said: � This tradition (about 17000 verses in Quran) is authentic and it cannot be hidden that this traditon and many more authentic traditons are explicit in (saying) that the Quran is missing and has changed. For me, (I believe) that the traditions have reached tawatur (i.e they are numerous) with regards to the meaning, and ignoring all of it would mean ignoring all traditions accordingly , but I think that the narrations in this meaning are not less than the narrations if Imamah so how do they confirm it using traditions?�
Mirat Al-Uqool Vol 12 p. 525
Al-Majlisi I (Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
–> RawDah Al-Muttaqoon, vol. 10, pg. 21
Hoor Al-’Aamilee said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (authentic)
–> Al-Fuwaa-id Al-Toosiyyah, topic # 96, pg. 483

Comments:
I always wonder how shia callers dare to accuse us due to some narrations which says about naskh-at-tilawa, when in their main hadith book, there is such narration, and one of their main scholar authenticated it, and stated that there are a lot of authentic narrations where clearly stated: QURAN IS TAMPERED.
Source: http://gift2shias.com/2009/10/28/in-qur ... ih-hadith/

May Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) guide us both.

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Burninglight
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Re: Hadiaths?

Post #13

Post by Burninglight »

LaaIlahaIllAllah wrote:
Burninglight wrote:I can see the unity between Muslims. If Uthman didn't burn the Qurans there would be even less unity. But there still are Muslims that just stick to the Quran only because the Sunnah has associations in it such as the last part of the Shahadah. In order to be a Muslim, you must mention the name of Muhammad with Allah. Christians don't have to mention the name of any non deity for their salvation. The Hadiths do not prove that Muhammad or any one less claimed he was a prophet. The evidence for this came after his death. I challenge any Muslim to prove this is wrong. Where are there any manuscripts documented that Muhammad was a prophet from the time he was alive?
Allah is the biggest problem in Islam, because he is the best of deceivers. No Muslim knows if they can trust Allah. Even Abu Bakr said to the affect I wouldn't trust the makr of Allah if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth. Allah cannot be trusted. He lied about Jesus to the Jews making it look like he died, but he also lied to the Arabs and the world by saying he didn't die. Allah shows that he didn't understand the Christian concept of the trinity. He implys that the trinity consisted of the father, mother and the son. He never mentioned the Holy Spirit. I could never follow an ignorant god. Why should anyone fear such a deceiving god? Satan is known to be the father of lies. I see such a correlation that and the best of deceivers
Shirk or associating partners with Allah (Azza wa Jal) is saying there is something else besides Him that is worthy of worship. I do not know why you feel that believing in the Messenger of Allah is shirk..... But different strokes for different folks i guess...

The Hadiths don't prove that he was a prophet or that he claimed to be a prophet? You have some reading to do, my son.

"Christians don't mention the name of any non-deity for their salvation"

Uhmmm... Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)? Lol..
Jesus (peace be upon him) himself refutes Trinity in the Bible. He says that only the Father knows the date of Judgement Day, not even the Son, nor angels or anyone. And we both know that God is All-Knowing and only He knows when Judgement Day is, therefore the "Father" is the One True God that sent Jesus (peace and blessings of God be upon him) and the two false deities besides God that you worship are refuted by your own 1/3 god lol.

The rest of the stuff is just biased nonsense from your own opinions.

The "Quran got the Trinity wrong" thing is so old and is a very sad attempt by Christian missionaries to prove Quran wrong. I admire their perseverance, though sadly for them they will end up in the hellfire (as if being refuted and humiliated in this world isn't enuf, right?). Lemme school you real quick: the Quran was not even talking about the Trinity in that verse. The Trinity was talked about before, the verse said "Don't say three". So sad indeed.

You're just sour cuz the one you worship was tempted by the devil and your own holy book says God cannot be tempted, LOL!
You say I have some reading to do, but read my comment more carefully. I said the only proof in the Hadiths is what showed up after Muhammads death. There is no proof or documentation that shows he considered himself a prophet or that anyone else considered him one, at the time He was living.

Allah's ignorance of the trinity might be old to you, but I discovered that on my own; it is not something I looked up on some anti Islamic cite. He did say don't say three, but he proves his ignorance when he asks Jesus. "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" That is a dead give away to me. Allah was ignorant.

So far I have learned that Allah is ignorant and the best of deceivers. And he proves he is by trying to get people to believe Jesus didn't die on the cross of our sin by saying he made it only look like he died. What awesome deception. So Allah allows Judas to go on the cross and allows people to believe it was Jesus. Allah manuiplated this whole thing. What awesome deception & confusion. Did you know the Bible said before Muhammad was born that Satan is the "Father of lies?" Did you know that Bible says that Satan is the "Author of confusion?" I see a correlation when I compare and contrast Allah with the Biblical description of Satan.

Even Abu Bakr didn't trust Allah and in the Quran even the Devil didn't trust him. He accused him of deception! Bakr said he wouldn't trust the makr (Deception) of Allah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. I wouldn't trust the Islamic Allah if I had both my feet in paradise, because he might only make it look like I am there, because he is the best of deceivers.

By the way, you have some reading to do about Allah's 3 daughters. It was Muhammad's prophecy that he later recanted, but he did say it. Satan used Muhammad for a time so Allah had to cancell it out of the Quran. IMO, Uthman had no business writing the Quran or recompiling it. He had no business. Quran means recitation not write. Allah's flying cranes whose intercession was hoped for, and an unconfirmed prophet that spoke Satan's words, yes, and a prophet that Muslims must associate in the shahadah with Allah or they can't be Muslims. In the Bible, prophets were stoned as a false prophet that gave words that weren't form God.

The more I study about Islam the more convinced I am that I should keep as far as east is from west from it. So to you be your religion and to me be mine!

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Re: Hadiaths?

Post #14

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Burninglight wrote:You say I have some reading to do, but read my comment more carefully. I said the only proof in the Hadiths is what showed up after Muhammads death. There is no proof or documentation that shows he considered himself a prophet or that anyone else considered him one, at the time He was living.
I don't get what you mean here.. Are you assuming that the hadiths were recorded after his death? If that is so, then I stand by my first position and recommended, once again, that you have some reading to do my son..... They were memorized and during his life and many written down during it as well, and also many in the following generations. This is basically how the ahadeeth work: There is a chain of narration. From the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to the last person reporting the hadeeth. There are various different categories and degrees of hadiths and things like that.

I keep telling you the hadiths recorded it but I think you are skipping it. Lemme try to fix that:

[font=Verdana]*THE HADITHS RECORDED IT AND SO DOES THE QURAN WHICH ARE TRACED BACK ALL TO WAY TO THE NARRATION OF THE PROPHET (PEACE AND BLESSINGS OF ALLAAH BE UPON HIM)*[/font]

There... Hopefully you catch it this time...

it is not something I looked up on some anti Islamic cite.
I wasn't saying you found it on an anti-Islamic site, I was just saying ignorant Christian missionaries try to use that to mislead the blind Christian masses away from Islam so that they can keep them at their con shows to bleed them dry of money in their fake shows - that's all, nothing about you.

when he asks Jesus. "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" That is a dead give away to me
Do the Catholics not pray to/through Mary/idols of Mary (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon her)?

Answer: Yes. No matter how much some try to sugar-coat it or make it look like something else.

I spoken with Christians who've even admitted that they would pray to her sometimes and ask her for help, etc.

The people from my country and my relatives also have pictures of her and other saints and do things like that with them, 'talk' to them and ask for intercession and things like that I guess.

In Islam, these things constitute as worship. This is shirk and it Haraam (Forbidden) in Islam. an "Ilah" is something worshiped or worthy of worship. Therefore if you do something that constitutes as worship, you are setting up gods with Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) and rejecting the basic and first part of the Shahada - Laa Ilaha Illa Allah and committing shirk.

Similar is the case in the Quran where it says that the Christians and Jews (or Jews only can't recall perfectly now) took their priests and rabbis as lords besides Allah. A Christian man came up to the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and told him that they don't worship their priests/rabbis. The Messenger of Allah replied by asking him, did they not make Halaal (Lawful) what Allah made Haraam (Forbidden/Unlawful)?

When someone does this, and another follows him in this, both are committing shirk.

I wouldn't be surprised if some desparate Christian missionary said the Quran was talking about Trinity here too and got it wrong.. :blink:

----

The rest, as I said before is nonsense. Some random Abu Bakr (ra) thing and the Satanic Verses thing, lolol so pathetic. I am sorry but this has been refuted to death and it ALMOST not funny anymore - almost.

I'm just gonna be quick on this one -> this came from a fabricated hadeeth.

Maybe if you are too childish to do a Google search I will elaborate later on with the proofs and all such things.

I thought you were actually open minded and not blindly following what random people show you, until I saw this of course.

-------

Lol, it's funny how Christians who speak about Love and such things can turn around and be so hypocritical in a flash. When God saves his Noble Prophet from death when the prophet prayed for "this cup to pass" him, the Bible speaks of this, what a Loving and Merciful act it is. But you twist it around to make it look evil! HAHA! I just realized another so funny thing look:

In your belief, it is Ultimate Love of God that He sent Himself or His Son of whatever to be tortured and killed for humanity when he could erase our sins with a snap of the fingers but he chose to suffer for us - that is amazing Love according to you that He would put his Own Begotten Son through all that torture and pain - that is True Christian Love - Oh yea, I'm feelin it!!

But when God saves his prophet then this is EVIL!!!

hahahahha what double standards, what double standards indeed!!!

Also, when in the Bible, Jesus kills 50,070 people for looking into a box then this is Love, LOL!!!
____

The Quran speaks of the Christians that are close to us and that a few of them are good and close but you, sir, are not one of them..

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Burninglight
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Re: Hadiaths?

Post #15

Post by Burninglight »

LaaIlahaIllAllah wrote:
Burninglight wrote:You say I have some reading to do, but read my comment more carefully. I said the only proof in the Hadiths is what showed up after Muhammads death. There is no proof or documentation that shows he considered himself a prophet or that anyone else considered him one, at the time He was living.
I don't get what you mean here.. Are you assuming that the hadiths were recorded after his death? If that is so, then I stand by my first position and recommended, once again, that you have some reading to do my son..... They were memorized and during his life and many written down during it as well, and also many in the following generations. This is basically how the ahadeeth work: There is a chain of narration. From the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to the last person reporting the hadeeth. There are various different categories and degrees of hadiths and things like that.

I keep telling you the hadiths recorded it but I think you are skipping it. Lemme try to fix that:

[font=Verdana]*THE HADITHS RECORDED IT AND SO DOES THE QURAN WHICH ARE TRACED BACK ALL TO WAY TO THE NARRATION OF THE PROPHET (PEACE AND BLESSINGS OF ALLAAH BE UPON HIM)*[/font]

There... Hopefully you catch it this time...

it is not something I looked up on some anti Islamic cite.
I wasn't saying you found it on an anti-Islamic site, I was just saying ignorant Christian missionaries try to use that to mislead the blind Christian masses away from Islam so that they can keep them at their con shows to bleed them dry of money in their fake shows - that's all, nothing about you.

when he asks Jesus. "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" That is a dead give away to me
Do the Catholics not pray to/through Mary/idols of Mary (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon her)?

Answer: Yes. No matter how much some try to sugar-coat it or make it look like something else.

I spoken with Christians who've even admitted that they would pray to her sometimes and ask her for help, etc.

The people from my country and my relatives also have pictures of her and other saints and do things like that with them, 'talk' to them and ask for intercession and things like that I guess.

In Islam, these things constitute as worship. This is shirk and it Haraam (Forbidden) in Islam. an "Ilah" is something worshiped or worthy of worship. Therefore if you do something that constitutes as worship, you are setting up gods with Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) and rejecting the basic and first part of the Shahada - Laa Ilaha Illa Allah and committing shirk.

Similar is the case in the Quran where it says that the Christians and Jews (or Jews only can't recall perfectly now) took their priests and rabbis as lords besides Allah. A Christian man came up to the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and told him that they don't worship their priests/rabbis. The Messenger of Allah replied by asking him, did they not make Halaal (Lawful) what Allah made Haraam (Forbidden/Unlawful)?

When someone does this, and another follows him in this, both are committing shirk.

I wouldn't be surprised if some desparate Christian missionary said the Quran was talking about Trinity here too and got it wrong.. :blink:

----

The rest, as I said before is nonsense. Some random Abu Bakr (ra) thing and the Satanic Verses thing, lolol so pathetic. I am sorry but this has been refuted to death and it ALMOST not funny anymore - almost.

I'm just gonna be quick on this one -> this came from a fabricated hadeeth.

Maybe if you are too childish to do a Google search I will elaborate later on with the proofs and all such things.

I thought you were actually open minded and not blindly following what random people show you, until I saw this of course.

-------

Lol, it's funny how Christians who speak about Love and such things can turn around and be so hypocritical in a flash. When God saves his Noble Prophet from death when the prophet prayed for "this cup to pass" him, the Bible speaks of this, what a Loving and Merciful act it is. But you twist it around to make it look evil! HAHA! I just realized another so funny thing look:

In your belief, it is Ultimate Love of God that He sent Himself or His Son of whatever to be tortured and killed for humanity when he could erase our sins with a snap of the fingers but he chose to suffer for us - that is amazing Love according to you that He would put his Own Begotten Son through all that torture and pain - that is True Christian Love - Oh yea, I'm feelin it!!

But when God saves his prophet then this is EVIL!!!

hahahahha what double standards, what double standards indeed!!!

Also, when in the Bible, Jesus kills 50,070 people for looking into a box then this is Love, LOL!!!
____

The Quran speaks of the Christians that are close to us and that a few of them are good and close but you, sir, are not one of them..
I don't know of any such thing where Jesus kills 50,000. What is your source? BTW, you are correct, I would never claim to be close to Islam. I hate every false way; however, I have a love for Muslims. I am trying to be patient with you, so let me give you the sources for you to make an informed decision about Islam because most Muslims don't know the true agenda of Islam. It is design to take you away from your Creator. I am not assuming anything about Islam, and I only share what I believe is true. I am not interested in lies about Islam.

It is a fact, there is no archeological evidence dated at the time when Muhammad was alive, by way of artifact, manuscript or inscription has ever been found were Muhammad is actually referred to as "a prophet". And it is a fact that Uthman burned your Quran and tampered with what is supposedly Allah's word. If you can prove this wrong, I'll recant.

Muslims falsely assert: "... two of the copies of the Qur’an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph `Uthman, are still available to us today and their texts and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to, with any other copy of the Qur’an, be it in print or handwriting, from any place or period of time. They will be found to be identical." (Von Denffer, Ulum al-Qur’an, p 64)

The facts show that although Muslims proclaim they have a Koran that dates to the time of Muhammad, the Reality is different.

Two ancient partial copies of Koran that are in existence are the Samarqand MSS is in Tashkent, and the MSS housed in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. What many Muslim's do not know, is that because these two manuscripts were written in a script style called "Kufic", practicing Muslim scholars generally date these manuscripts no earlier than 200 years after Muhammad died. Had these two manuscripts been compiled any earlier, they would have been written in either the Ma'il or Mashq script style. John Gilchrist, in his book, "Jam' Al-Qur'an" came to this same conclusion. (John Gilchrist, Jam' Al-Qur'an, Jesus to the Muslims, 1989)

Further, only one-third of the original Samarkand MSS in Tashkent survives. There are about 250 pages written in a bold Arabic script on deerskin. It is written in "Hejaz" in Saudi Arabia, so the script is Hejazi, (Kufic script).

Now we do have one ancient copy of the Koran written in the Ma'il style of script, that is housed in the British Museum in London (Lings & Safadi 1976:17,20; Gilchrist 1989:16,144). But scholar Martin Lings, who was not only a practicing Muslim, but also a former curator for the manuscripts of the British Museum, dates this manuscript at 790 AD, making it the earliest. On the other hand Yasir Qadhi notes one Islamic Masters/PhD scholar who believes the Samarqand MSS is the ‘most likely candidate for the original’.

It is unknown, even by Muslims that authorities will not release photographs of the ancient Topkapi manuscript in Istanbul and so there are no known studies on it. This is why the Muslim apologist, M. Saifullah had to state "Concerning the Topkapi manuscript we are not aware of studies done it." (Who's Afraid Of Textual Criticism?, M. S. M. Saifullah, 'Abd ar-Rahman Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem) What is in this manuscript that Muslims are afraid to let the world see? After all in Qur'an 2:111 it says "Produce your proof if you are truthful."

Even the earliest fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran are all dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died.

Again, I tell you, the fact that there is no archeological evidence dated at the time when Muhammad was alive, by way of artifact, manuscript or inscription has ever been found were Muhammad is actually referred to as "a prophet."

It is documented what Abu Bakr said. He didn't trust the deception of Allah. Muhammad is an unconfirmed prophet, and he was never referred to as a prophet at the time he was living.
If you don’t believe me, listen to faithful Muslim, Ahmad Von Denffer, in his book, Ulum al Quran, in a chapter called, Old Manuscripts Of The Qur'an, "Most of the early original Qur'an manuscripts, complete or in sizeable fragments, that are still available to us now, are not earlier than the second century after the Hijra. [or 800 AD] The earliest copy, which was exhibited in the British Museum during the 1976 World of Islam Festival, dated from the late second century.' However, there are also a number of odd fragments of Qur'anic papyri available, which date from the first century." (Grohmann, A.: Die Entstehung des Koran und die altesten Koran- Handschriften', in: Bustan, 1961, pp. 33-8)

There are no ancient copies of the Koran dating before 750 AD in museums. By the way. True early Christainity never considered Mary to be the mother of God. Catholics are the ones to do that and pray to her, but even Catholics didn't consider her to be God or part of the trinity. Allah was ignorant of these facts back then, but I am sure he knows it now. My sources and quoted material:
http://www.bible.ac/islam/islam-myths-k ... cripts.htm

Plz don't patronize me by calling me "son" Thank you :eyebrow:

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qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #16

Post by Yusef »

Salam;
LaIlahaIllAllah wrote:I was very annoyed and angry at the lies that you have written
So when I heared and saw the hadith of Ibn-Taymiyeh, I should told that All the people of Sonni are Moshrik?? and are followers of Dajjal??[/quote]
..and wrote:Didn't you hear that every Bid'ah is misguidance and every misguidance in in the hellfire?
Why your own the second Khalifeh, Omar told we must for doing say pray put our hands on each other??
Because when his army attacked to Iran, saw the Iranian do that for regard for their own kings...
..and wrote:Didn't you hear/read that family ties are broken when people turn off the Straight Path?
Yes, I know. Also family ties are broken when people turn on the straight path.[the accursed tree]
..and wrote:When you follow this Shi'a religion which makes halaal what Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) made haraam
Which halal made haraam??
..and wrote:and you follow them in that which they do
I told before, I'm just follower of the logic and the wisdom, and never blindly follow anyone.
..and wrote:Also, I have failed to find this Imami doctrine in the Quran, so how can be part of Islam since it is such an important thing - according to shias - yet Allah (Azza wa Jal) didn't even mention it in the Quran
how can be part of OT/NT since it is such an important thing - according to Muslims - yet Allah (Azza wa Jal) didn't even mention it in the OT/NT?[Islam and the Prophet(s.a)]
..and wrote:I do not understand what you are asking here.
You believe The Mahdi(aj.A.t.f.sh) will bear in the generation of lady Fatemeh(s.a) the daughter of the Prophet(s.a).
So when I'm a child of her, maybe the Mahdi will bear in the my generation[just in your own belief]
..and wrote:What reference did they give? Book, volume, chapter, page number?
I don't know. Just I watched that, and showed page of that, but I don't remember which page and...
..and wrote:??? I quoted you! Look at your second post, this is what one part says
my meant Wahhabiyat one of the beliefs of Sonnat
..and wrote:? I am talking about the doctrine, not the behaviours of your people!...: Al-Kafi... Your scholars believe that the Quran is corrupted!!!
- The doctrine of Shi'eh are Imams(a.s). When you met them and found they said these??
- Al-Kafi, I've read that until 2754th Hadith up to now and enjoy that really.
- The Scholars of Shi'eh deleted the Ahadith of the "corrupted Qor'an" in the Al-Kafi and unbelieve them
- I don't say this Qor'an is corrupted, and also don't say that those Ahadith are wrong! That's no important for me and await for coming The Mahdi(a.s) for understand that.
..and wrote:I should be asking YOU why you make affronts to Ahlul Bayt??
Probably I'm doing that and still don't know of
..and wrote: Why are your ahadeeth books full of lies
How do you know if your own Ahadith books are full of lies?
..and wrote:May Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) guide us both
InSha'Allah...
Erhamna ya Allah, Erhamna more than before...
Salam.
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

LaaIlahaIllAllah
Student
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:09 pm

Re: Hadiaths?

Post #17

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Burninglight wrote:
I don't know of any such thing where Jesus kills 50,000. What is your source?
'19And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter"

1 Samuel 6:19

It is a fact, there is no archeological evidence dated at the time when Muhammad was alive, by way of artifact, manuscript or inscription has ever been found were Muhammad is actually referred to as "a prophet". And it is a fact that Uthman burned your Quran and tampered with what is supposedly Allah's word. If you can prove this wrong, I'll recant.
There have been some items found such as a bowl of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and i last heard that it was in Chechnya.

And Hadiths lol.

Obviously you will believe the Christian sources no matter how much they lie and I will not believe them.. I'm not here really to convince you b/c honestly I don't really care, lol.
Muslims falsely assert: "... two of the copies of the Qur’an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph `Uthman, are still available to us today and their texts and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to, with any other copy of the Qur’an, be it in print or handwriting, from any place or period of time. They will be found to be identical." (Von Denffer, Ulum al-Qur’an, p 64)

The facts show that although Muslims proclaim they have a Koran that dates to the time of Muhammad, the Reality is different.

Two ancient partial copies of Koran that are in existence are the Samarqand MSS is in Tashkent, and the MSS housed in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. What many Muslim's do not know, is that because these two manuscripts were written in a script style called "Kufic", practicing Muslim scholars generally date these manuscripts no earlier than 200 years after Muhammad died. Had these two manuscripts been compiled any earlier, they would have been written in either the Ma'il or Mashq script style. John Gilchrist, in his book, "Jam' Al-Qur'an" came to this same conclusion. (John Gilchrist, Jam' Al-Qur'an, Jesus to the Muslims, 1989)

Further, only one-third of the original Samarkand MSS in Tashkent survives. There are about 250 pages written in a bold Arabic script on deerskin. It is written in "Hejaz" in Saudi Arabia, so the script is Hejazi, (Kufic script).

Now we do have one ancient copy of the Koran written in the Ma'il style of script, that is housed in the British Museum in London (Lings & Safadi 1976:17,20; Gilchrist 1989:16,144). But scholar Martin Lings, who was not only a practicing Muslim, but also a former curator for the manuscripts of the British Museum, dates this manuscript at 790 AD, making it the earliest. On the other hand Yasir Qadhi notes one Islamic Masters/PhD scholar who believes the Samarqand MSS is the ‘most likely candidate for the original’.

It is unknown, even by Muslims that authorities will not release photographs of the ancient Topkapi manuscript in Istanbul and so there are no known studies on it. This is why the Muslim apologist, M. Saifullah had to state "Concerning the Topkapi manuscript we are not aware of studies done it." (Who's Afraid Of Textual Criticism?, M. S. M. Saifullah, 'Abd ar-Rahman Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem) What is in this manuscript that Muslims are afraid to let the world see? After all in Qur'an 2:111 it says "Produce your proof if you are truthful."

Even the earliest fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran are all dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died.

Again, I tell you, the fact that there is no archeological evidence dated at the time when Muhammad was alive, by way of artifact, manuscript or inscription has ever been found were Muhammad is actually referred to as "a prophet."

It is documented what Abu Bakr said. He didn't trust the deception of Allah. Muhammad is an unconfirmed prophet, and he was never referred to as a prophet at the time he was living.
If you don’t believe me, listen to faithful Muslim, Ahmad Von Denffer, in his book, Ulum al Quran, in a chapter called, Old Manuscripts Of The Qur'an, "Most of the early original Qur'an manuscripts, complete or in sizeable fragments, that are still available to us now, are not earlier than the second century after the Hijra. [or 800 AD] The earliest copy, which was exhibited in the British Museum during the 1976 World of Islam Festival, dated from the late second century.' However, there are also a number of odd fragments of Qur'anic papyri available, which date from the first century." (Grohmann, A.: Die Entstehung des Koran und die altesten Koran- Handschriften', in: Bustan, 1961, pp. 33-8)

There are no ancient copies of the Koran dating before 750 AD in museums. By the way. True early Christainity never considered Mary to be the mother of God. Catholics are the ones to do that and pray to her, but even Catholics didn't consider her to be God or part of the trinity. Allah was ignorant of these facts back then, but I am sure he knows it now. My sources and quoted material:
http://www.bible.ac/islam/islam-myths-k ... cripts.htm

Plz don't patronize me by calling me "son" Thank you :eyebrow:
O yes I'm sorry I know every time you hear son you think begotten, I apologize.

Anyways, the verse from the Quran says that Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) will ask prophet Jesus if he preached to worship him and his mother (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them both) as gods besides Allah on the Day of Resurrection. Secondly, I already explained to you why praying and things like that are worship but naturally, you did not even read it. Maybe I should just write with large font always so that you can see...

Also, I do not know why you are talking about Quran manuscripts are only dated 100 years after when this is exactly the situation with your Bible. You don't even know the authors of the Gospels. What your scholars DO know is that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did not write Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, lmao.

Here are some links that expose your idols' lies:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Gilchrist/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/


Like I said before, you're just mad that prophet Jesus in the PRESENT Bible refutes your innovated doctrine LoL!

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:09 pm

Re: qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #18

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

Yusef wrote:Salam;
Wa alaykum salaam,
LaIlahaIllAllah wrote:I was very annoyed and angry at the lies that you have written
So when I heared and saw the hadith of Ibn-Taymiyeh, I should told that All the people of Sonni are Moshrik?? and are followers of Dajjal??
First of all, the thing you claim ibn-Taymiyyah said, is not shirk as far as I understood it. Second, I provided you with references and statement from your scholars in their books, volume, page number, and you did not provide this. So if I say that Khomeini said in his book "I am gay", will you believe this? Of course not and I cannot say that without giving you proof. We have proof for what Shia scholars believe, now where is your proof? Also, that is one scholar so even if he said it, others would deny this. But many many top shia scholars believe in the Quran to be corrupted but do not tell the lay-people because they don't even believe that - like you.
..and wrote:What reference did they give? Book, volume, chapter, page number?
I don't know. Just I watched that, and showed page of that, but I don't remember which page and...
Well.. This is not sufficient proof then, you can't just say something without giving proof. Like I explained above.

..and wrote:Didn't you hear that every Bid'ah is misguidance and every misguidance in in the hellfire?
Why your own the second Khalifeh, Omar told we must for doing say pray put our hands on each other??
Because when his army attacked to Iran, saw the Iranian do that for regard for their own kings...
You think I'm gonna believe what your scholars say when we have authentic ahadeeth that say something totally different? And it is the SHIAS who steal traditions and make innovations from Irani influence.
..and wrote:When you follow this Shi'a religion which makes halaal what Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) made haraam
Which halal made haraam??
One example off the top of my head is mut'ah. It was halaal for a period, and then made haraam. But Shias say it's halaal. Also I heard that Shias are less strict about music and say it's not haraam as long as it doesn't influence you to do bad things - just heard this today from a Shia. Also tattoos, i'm pretty sure that is not haraam for Shias but not fully sure.
..and wrote:and you follow them in that which they do
I told before, I'm just follower of the logic and the wisdom, and never blindly follow anyone.
Then why do you follow the 12 Imam belief when it's not in the Quran? You are blindly following your scholars, my friend.
..and wrote:Also, I have failed to find this Imami doctrine in the Quran, so how can be part of Islam since it is such an important thing - according to shias - yet Allah (Azza wa Jal) didn't even mention it in the Quran
how can be part of OT/NT since it is such an important thing - according to Muslims - yet Allah (Azza wa Jal) didn't even mention it in the OT/NT?[Islam and the Prophet(s.a)]
Ok, there are two big things wrong with this argument:

1. The Injeel and Taurat were meant for those people at that time so if Islam and the prophet (peace be upon him) aren't mentioned there, then it's no big deal since it's for THEIR time. Furthermore, the Imam thing is SPECIFICALLY for our period, it is not the same as prophets. So it should be mentioned in the Quran because that is our Sharia -according to Shias and normally.

Also, in Islam, we don't take things from the Bible and make laws from that because a) It's corrupted and b) the Quran abrogates the older revelations and laws.

2. Islam and the prophet (peace be upon him) ARE mentioned in the OT/NT!!!

{And (remember) when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah unto you confirming the Taurat [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he (Ahmad i.e. Muhammad SAW) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic."}
[ Surat As-Saf/61, v. 6 ]


{Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurat (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) and the Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16), - he commands them for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibat [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khaba'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allah's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad SAW), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Quran) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.}
[ Surat Al-'A'raf/7, v. 157 ]

Thats Muhsin Khan translation and he adds alot of brackets to explain Arabic words and so on, so here's a similar one w/o the brackets:

{Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.}
[ Surat Al-'A'raf/7, v. 157 ]


"Ahmad" means/is the same thing as "Muhammad". There is a Sahih hadith (from Sunni sources) where the prophet (peace be upon him) says, I have 5 names, then he lists them and one of them is "Ahmad".

And if the Word of Allah (Azza wa Jal) ain't enuf for you, then check in the PRESENT Bible because it is there too!!! Obviously it doesn't say "Ahmad" because they don't even have prophet Jesus' (peace be upon him) original statement recorded cause it was in Aramaic but they only have the Greek translation but dunno the original Aramaic wording.

Anyways, even if Islam and the prophet (peace be upon him) were not mentioned in Bible, they are mentioned in the Quran which is for our time and therefore the 12 Imam thing should also be mentioned in Quran because according to Shias this is a HUGE part of Islam and without it, Islam wouldn't be Islam.

..and wrote:I do not understand what you are asking here.
You believe The Mahdi(aj.A.t.f.sh) will bear in the generation of lady Fatemeh(s.a) the daughter of the Prophet(s.a).
So when I'm a child of her, maybe the Mahdi will bear in the my generation[just in your own belief]
I guess he could be but his name will be Muhammad ibn Abdullah and people will give him bay'ah at mecca and will be the ones telling him to be the leader and I doubt Sunnis would give bay'ah to a Shia and encourage him to rule over them.

And he will be relatively known amongst the people so they would probably know he is not a Shia.

Also, do you have a chart that traces your family line back to the prophet (peace be upon him)? I have heard many people claiming this but few actually have the lines recorded.

..and wrote:??? I quoted you! Look at your second post, this is what one part says
my meant Wahhabiyat one of the beliefs of Sonnat
No such thing as Wahhabism. First of all, Allah (Azza wa Jal) is Al-Wahab and with His Exalted Name, you are mocking people. Second, the man's name was MUHAMMAD ibn Abdul-Wahhab. So why don't you say muhammadis? Cause it would be an insult to the prophet (peace be upon him)? But it's OK to use Allah's Name?

..and wrote:I should be asking YOU why you make affronts to Ahlul Bayt??
Probably I'm doing that and still don't know of
I am generalizing here but I'm talking about how shias say this and that about them, like they hated the Sahaba, were infallible, are 'dominant over every atom in the universe' like Khomeini put it and etc.
..and wrote: Why are your ahadeeth books full of lies
How do you know if your own Ahadith books are full of lies?
They aren't though.. We have a way way way better and more efficient system of grading the hadeeth which Shias didn't have until hundreds of years later and they took some of it from the Sunnis. Even still they did not learn enough and that is why we find scholars saying Quran is corrupt because your ahadeeth say so.
..and wrote:? I am talking about the doctrine, not the behaviours of your people!...: Al-Kafi... Your scholars believe that the Quran is corrupted!!!
- The doctrine of Shi'eh are Imams(a.s). When you met them and found they said these??
- Al-Kafi, I've read that until 2754th Hadith up to now and enjoy that really.
- The Scholars of Shi'eh deleted the Ahadith of the "corrupted Qor'an" in the Al-Kafi and unbelieve them
- I don't say this Qor'an is corrupted, and also don't say that those Ahadith are wrong! That's no important for me and await for coming The Mahdi(a.s) for understand that.
I know you don't say the Quran is corrupted, you are just a lay-Shia, this is the stuff that many scholars believe and they don't want to tell normal ppl cause it's kufr and so ridiculous!

You don't say those ahadeeth are wrong?? Are you talking about the ones that say the Quran is 17000 verses that Shia scholars marked authentic?? Sorry if I am misunderstanding because I think I am.

I did not hear that Shia Scholars removed those ahadeeth because TOP shia scholars such as al-majilisi are the ones that graded it Sahih, Can you send me a link to this announcement or some kind of video of the Shia scholars who say they have removed it? And can you send me a link to the new Al-Kafi with those ahadeeth removed?

Btw, the book itself was compiled by a Shia who believed in these ahadeeth - that Abu bakr and Umar (ra) took out the chapters that speak about Ali (ra) (astaghfirullah). His teacher also shared the same view.

LaaIlahaIllAllah
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Re: qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #19

Post by LaaIlahaIllAllah »

check this out Yusuf:


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Burninglight
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Re: qayrel maqdube alayhem wa laddalin

Post #20

Post by Burninglight »

LaaIlahaIllAllah wrote:check this out Yusuf:

I listened to the video. It was annoying to hear the broken glass. No, I don't think of begotten when you mention son. This is just your way of further patronizing me by presuming to know what I think.

I don't really want to argue with you. The Bible says "The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I am not sure if you understand what that verses means. It wasn't Jesus that said it, but it is written that Jesus said, "I am the way, truth and the life" I believe Yehshua. Jesus didn't say "I show the way" like all other prophets. Jesus said "I am" He said He was before Abraham.

I could only plead with you to look at the way I see Him. Look carefully at the way a Christians truly sees Jesus. This link will show how we Christians know Him. The question is do you know Him or about Him? The Bible says to know Him (as He really is) is to have eternal life.

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