Quranic Islam versus Sunni/Shia

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Bigmo
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Quranic Islam versus Sunni/Shia

Post #1

Post by Bigmo »

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

4:79-80 Say: ‘Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe.... Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger, but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."


As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themselves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concern somebody else's right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. Here the Koran sees adultery as affecting the other partner in a marriage. It’s a betrayal and a breaking of oath. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. It’s clear that the verse made it very difficult to implement on adultery but very easy to implement on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the prophet’s wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran cannot order the prophet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile. The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostate. That’s why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transferred that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority was transferred from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implemented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire. None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. God only punishes those who did not get caught and punished in this world. The sects claimed that once punished the sin falls away and disappears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this conc3ept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be reciprocal and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetrators of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler. This is all very sad as the taking of someone’s life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder especially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw.

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws left and right. So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial and therefore they tended to avoid them.

Its very unfortunate the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed much aspect of the sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But even the clerics understood that these laws were controversial. Its not easy in Islam to execute outside of murder. But this wise tradition was broken. That’s very unfortunant as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the Sunni/Shia sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that separates the Koran from the Sunnah. That’s why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink inthe Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And that’s very sad.

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Re: Quranic Islam versus Sunni/Shia

Post #2

Post by southern cross »

[Replying to post 1 by Bigmo]

Thanks for an interesting and informative post.

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Re: Quranic Islam versus Sunni/Shia

Post #3

Post by Yusef »

Dear,
Do you know what's the most difference between Shia and Sunni??

Sunni people say we are the same original Islam of the Prophet
Shia says we are.

If you non-Muslims use just a bit of your mind/wisdom, then seek the history, then you'll understand Shia is true without any doubt.
continued to Shia Vs. Sunni
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

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Re: Quranic Islam versus Sunni/Shia

Post #4

Post by ciko »

Yusef wrote: Dear,
Do you know what's the most difference between Shia and Sunni??

Sunni people say we are the same original Islam of the Prophet
Shia says we are.

If you non-Muslims use just a bit of your mind/wisdom, then seek the history, then you'll understand Shia is true without any doubt.
continued to Shia Vs. Sunni
If you non-Muslims use just a bit of your mind/wisdom, then seek the history, then you'll understand Shia is true without any doubt.
SHia are not even muslims, not to talk about that they are followers of islam and prophet Muhammed.

Shia are a sect wich have nothing to do with islam, just look what they do and believe and compare it what islam say, totally 2 different religions.

Shia rituals have nothing to do with islam, prophet muhammed never did or command such studpities
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if this was real islam i would be the first who will leave it and run from it.

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Re: Quranic Islam versus Sunni/Shia

Post #5

Post by Yusef »

Was it your logic!!!??
Okay.
This is an Afghani Scorpion eater who is a Sunni!!
also those Sunnies who kill non-Muslims wildly!!
Taliban, Alqaidah, Salafies, Wahabies......
If it's Shia, then those are Sunnat!!!!
It's your logic!!
We are talking about doctrines! No People!
I mentioned "Sunnies say" and "Shia sayS"!! It means the deeds Shia people do, don't the things the doctrines of Shia brings..
* Shia says We should be under command of the Twelver Imams(a.s.), those who brought/teached the same real/original Sunnah of Islam;
* Sunni people say We don't need to any Imam, and the Qur'an is enough for us.
So according to Qur'an You should kill everyone of non-Muslims as Talibano Alqaidaho.... do.

Look at the important question for Sunnies in the topic: Yum Ul Ashura
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

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Post #6

Post by ciko »

So according to Qur'an You should kill everyone of non-Muslims as Talibano Alqaidaho.... do.
absolutly not, were did you get this from? God forbids in quran to kill innocent people

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TheQuran Versus Shariah Law - differences and contradictions

Post #7

Post by Bigmo »

The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.

WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QURANIC ISLAM AND TODAY'S MUSLIM PRACTICES?


In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from Quran to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list of contradictions are quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:

In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�

In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war�

In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times...

In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants...

In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man�s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut�a)...

In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification...

In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...

In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death...

In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths...

In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter �Muslim� must work to attain the status of Faithful �Mumin� (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)...

In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards...

In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-2Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...

In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time�

In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases...

In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all...

In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur'an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:3. Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.

http://www.free-minds.org/

I do not necessarily believe that the pilgrimage to Mecca ritual is pagan since paganism is a theology and not a ritual. Rituals are acts and not beliefs. Rituals in the Quran are left for the individual to determine its practice. There is no one way to perform a ritual in the Quran whether its praying or pilgrimage or charity. But everything else is spot on.

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Post #8

Post by steps »

You know that prophet Mohammad was praying , and he commanded the Muslims to set up the five prayers in specific times during day and night .
[103. When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah.s praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times. ] Surah 3
My questions :

Who Taught the Muslims about the stated times ?

What should a Muslim do to inform the Muslims about the times of prayers ? and your prove from the Quran ?

From whom did the Muslims learn the sayings and the actions of prayers ? and your prove from the Quran ? and what the Muslims say during the prayers ? and show me their sayings from the holy Quran ?

What is the exact way to do the prayer ? and from whom they learned the exact way to pray ? and can you show me this way from the Quran ?

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Post #9

Post by Bigmo »

[Replying to steps]

"Then Allah revealed to me a revelation and He made obligatory for me fifty prayers every day and night. Then I went down to Moses (peace be upon him) and he said: What has your Lord enjoined upon your Ummah? I said: Fifty prayers. He said: Return to thy Lord and beg for reduction (in the number of prayers), for your community shall not be able to bear this burden as I have put to test the children of Israil and tried them (and found them too weak to bear such a heavy burden).

He (the Holy Prophet) said: I went back to my Lord and said: My Lord, make things lighter for my Ummah. (The Lord) reduced five prayers for me. I went down to Moses and said. (The Lord) reduced five (prayers) for me, He said: Verily thy Ummah shall not be able to bear this burden; return to thy Lord and ask Him to make things lighter.

I then kept going back and forth between my Lord Blessed and Exalted and Moses, till He said: There are five prayers every day and night. O Muhammad, each being credited as ten, so that makes fifty prayers. He who intends to do a good deed and does not do it will have a good deed recorded for him; and if he does it, it will be recorded for him as ten; whereas he who intends to do an evil deed and does not do, it will not be recorded for him; and if he does it, only one evil deed will be recorded.

I then came down and when I came to Moses and informed him, he said: Go back to thy Lord and ask Him to make things lighter. Upon this the Messenger of Allah remarked: I returned to my Lord until I felt ashamed before Him."
—Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 309

Another version:

Then Al-Bait-ul-Ma'mur (i.e. the Sacred House) was shown to me and a container full of wine and another full of milk and a third full of honey were brought to me. I took the milk. Gabriel remarked, 'This is the Islamic religion which you and your followers are following.' Then the prayers were enjoined on me: They were fifty prayers a day. When I returned, I passed by Moses who asked (me), 'What have you been ordered to do?' I replied, 'I have been ordered to offer fifty prayers a day.' Moses said, 'Your followers cannot bear fifty prayers a day, and by Allah, I have tested people before you, and I have tried my level best with Bani Israel (in vain). Go back to your Lord and ask for reduction to lessen your followers' burden.' So I went back, and Allah reduced ten prayers for me. Then again I came to Moses, but he repeated the same as he had said before. Then again I went back to Allah and He reduced ten more prayers. When I came back to Moses he said the same, I went back to Allah and He ordered me to observe ten prayers a day. When I came back to Moses, he repeated the same advice, so I went back to Allah and was ordered to observe five prayers a day.

When I came back to Moses, he said, 'What have you been ordered?' I replied, 'I have been ordered to observe five prayers a day.' He said, 'Your followers cannot bear five prayers a day, and no doubt, I have got an experience of the people before you, and I have tried my level best with Bani Israel, so go back to your Lord and ask for reduction to lessen your follower's burden.' I said, 'I have requested so much of my Lord that I feel ashamed, but I am satisfied now and surrender to Allah's Order.' When I left, I heard a voice saying, 'I have passed My Order and have lessened the burden of My Worshipers." - Sahih Al-Bukhari 5.227

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_and_Mi'raj


So apparently because the prophet was too ashamed to reduce them any further we are supposed to be stuck with 5. Even Moses knew 5 could still be too much. So even if we say the Miraj occured, this part about the 5 daily prayers can not be true since only the Quran can legislate. One wonders why the prophet did not pray 50 times a day before this if 50 prayers was the correct amount. Yet we are told by Sunni sources that:

"The obligation of Salah was received early in the Prophetic mission. When the Prophet (saw) received the message he was ordered to establish and perform prayer. After 40 days, Al Mudather and Al Muzamel were also revealed ordering him (saw) to stand up and perform prayer.

Two prayers, one in the morning and one in the evening:

When prophet, received first revelation , he was immediately ordered to establish and perform prayer. Al Mudther and Muzamel were revealed 40 days after the first revelation, and in both the Prophet (saw) was asked to stand up and perform Salah. The format of the prayer was not specific, but the times were. They were two prayers, one in the morning and one in the evening.

Was the form of Salah as we know it today? We don’t know. We don’t have much detail of how prayer was performed during that period of time, but we do know that it was performed two units [rak’as] at a time. We also know that Salah went through stages until it was finalized in the format we know today.

2. Times o the five daily prayers

Ibn Abbas narrates, “The angel Jibril led the prophet, to teach him the prayer times. On the first day he prayed all the prayers at the beginning of the respective times and on the second day he delayed the prayers until just before the end of their times for all prayers except maghrib, where he instead prayed it both days at the same time, and then said, ‘…the time of each salah is between these two times.’� [Tirmidhi]


http://lamyaalmas.wordpress.com/201...v ... ir-birjas/





So here Sunni sources tell us that the prophet for almost 15 years before the Miraj prayed twice a day. But yet we are told in the Miraj he was ordered to do 50 which he reduced to 5. Note that the only two salat mentioned in the Quran are two, fajr and Isha but other salat like tahajjud were mentioned also in the Quran especially at night. So initially he was praying a Quranist prayers then the Miraj made it 5 after starting from 50. We see there was a bargain between God and his prophet. Now there is nothing wrong with praying 5 times, many Quranist do. After all Muslims were praying 5 times before hadiths were compiled. But the binding and obligatory part is what i look at. Because if you make anything binding and obligatory without a Quranic injunction then you made the Quran irrelevant. The one obligation can turn to hundreds of obligations. And this is exactly what happened in the end. 90% of Sharia law we have today is none Quranic.

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Post #10

Post by steps »

are you a quranic ?
or not a Muslim ?

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