Quranic Islam versus Sunni/Shia

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Bigmo
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Quranic Islam versus Sunni/Shia

Post #1

Post by Bigmo »

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

4:79-80 Say: ‘Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe.... Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger, but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."


As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themselves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concern somebody else's right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. Here the Koran sees adultery as affecting the other partner in a marriage. It’s a betrayal and a breaking of oath. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. It’s clear that the verse made it very difficult to implement on adultery but very easy to implement on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the prophet’s wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran cannot order the prophet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile. The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostate. That’s why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transferred that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority was transferred from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implemented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire. None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. God only punishes those who did not get caught and punished in this world. The sects claimed that once punished the sin falls away and disappears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this conc3ept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be reciprocal and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetrators of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler. This is all very sad as the taking of someone’s life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder especially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw.

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws left and right. So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial and therefore they tended to avoid them.

Its very unfortunate the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed much aspect of the sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But even the clerics understood that these laws were controversial. Its not easy in Islam to execute outside of murder. But this wise tradition was broken. That’s very unfortunant as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the Sunni/Shia sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that separates the Koran from the Sunnah. That’s why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink inthe Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And that’s very sad.

Bigmo
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Post #11

Post by Bigmo »

[Replying to steps]

I am a Quranist. It should be obvious.

Concerning the Isra and Miraj hadith (the night journey):

I think questions were asked about the 5 prayers number. Notice the ending was how the prophet was embarassed to request God to make it less. So anyone who complains about 5 being too much can be told that it was supposed to be 50 (so thank God its only 5) and the prophet was too ashamed to go less so you should also be ashamed to complain. Notice in the hadith Moses actually still believed 5 was too much per day.

The result is 90% of Muslims do not perform salat as they do not have the discipline to pray 5 times a day. Since there is no flexibility for them they simply abandon it. If you read the hadith as a whole there is a section on how to pray where Gabriel teaches the prophet how to pray. One wonders how the prophet prayed before the Miraj event. Often Sunnis and Shias always ask us how do you guys know how to pray, yet little do they know that according to Sunni sources for almost 15 years there was no specific method of prayer prescribed and they claim the prophet actually prayed twice a day without a specific way to pray . There is many aspects to Sunni and Shia Islam that Muslims are not aware of.

Western historians believe the 5 times of prayers came from Zoroastrian (Persian ) influence since the Zoroastrian have the same 5 times of prayer. They used to worship the sun so they prayed according to the movement of the Sun. Dawn, noon, afternoon, sunset and and night time. The hadith could have been a way to Islamicize that method of prayer to lure the Persians into Islam. The Abbasid Empire was heavily dependent on the Persians in their rule. Nearly all the hadith collectors like Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, Ibn Majah and even the Quran tafsir people like Ibn Kathir and Tabari were Persian speaking.

Other Quranist do not care about such analysis noting that Judaism also have a similar method of praying. As this video shows:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg‎

Many Quranist pray 5 times a day and in a similar fashion to Sunnis and Shias since this method of praying was passed down to Muslims generation to generation and did not come to Muslims by a hadith. This method of prayer existed before hadiths were compiled. The hadith simply made 5 times obligatory.

Judaic tradition trace this method of prayer to Solomon and other prophets. Its similar to how Sunnis pray. However the Jewish community today rarely pray like this and prefer to stand upright. This is believed to be because of European influence in later Jewish communities. This prayer however was the traditional Jewish prayer.



From a Quranist perspective there is no problem for you to chose how many times you want to pray as long as you follow the Quranic guidelines like staying clean, praying in humility, being consistent and being timely in your prayer and praying in sincerity. The Quran mentions bowing, kneeling, prostrating and standing upright as methods of prayers.The Quran as well as the Torah and Gospel do not mention a number of prayers or a specific way. The Quran however mentioned the fajr and isha prayer by name but never said it had to be such. Every person is responsible for managing his prayer. The Quran says prayer (like zakat) is the cornerstone of faith and it has been made obligatory for the believers.

Some people jog every morning to stay fit and eat one large meal a day, others eat 5 small ones and train every morning and night. Others eat three medium meals. Some do swimming, some play tennis and some take a long walk. As long as you stay active and limit your calories and eat healthy and do so consistently, you will be fit and loose any extra weight you shouldn't have. In Quranic Islam you have no excuse.

steps
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Re: TheQuran Versus Shariah Law - differences and contradict

Post #12

Post by steps »

Bigmo wrote: The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.

WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QURANIC ISLAM AND TODAY'S MUSLIM PRACTICES?


In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�
The pillars of Islam from the holy Quran :
1- shahada
Shahada is a declaration of faith and trust that professes that there is only one God (Allah) and that Muhammad is God's messenger.

Allah says : [18. There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.] Surah 3

Allah says : [1. When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger ] Surah 63
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2- the prayers
[103. When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah.s praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times. ] Surah 4
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3- Al-zakah
[110. And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah. for Allah sees Well all that ye do.] Surah 2

[103. Of their goods, take alms, that so thou mightest purify and sanctify them; and pray on their behalf. Verily thy prayers are a source of security for them: And Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth.] Surah 9

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4- The Fast
Allah says : [183. O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,-] Surah 2

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5- Hajj , pilgrimage
Allah says : [97. In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures. ] Surah 2

it is easy to destroy your claims ... as it is easy to discover that you do not know anything about the Quran .

steps
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Re: TheQuran Versus Shariah Law - differences and contradict

Post #13

Post by steps »

Bigmo wrote: The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.

WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QURANIC ISLAM AND TODAY'S MUSLIM PRACTICES?


In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war�
steps wrote: ( A ) : SLAVES AND SLAVERY [ PART 1 ]

Before the Quranic revelation, slavery prevailed all over the world. In those days it seemed perfectly normal for people to have slaves whom they had captured in war or purchased in the markets. But the Quran proclaimed the equality of all men in the sight of God. It struck at the root of slavery by recognizing the moral worth of a human being as a human being.

However there were at the time of the Quranic revelation numerous slaves that pre existed in that society as well as other parts of the world. The Quran in every conceivable way discouraged slavery and improved the lot of slaves. The Believers were urged to be kind and considerate to slaves, they were told that to emancipate a slave was a meritorious act. They could atone for some of their offences by setting a slave free. Thus the number of slaves was gradually reduced and the society was made less dependent on slave labor.

The Arabic words "Maa malakat aimanukum" as occurred in the Quran which mean "Those whom your right hands possessed" are in the past tense and refer to those who had already been enslaved. When they were emancipated through a gradual process, slavery died a natural death.

Islam (Quranic Islam, which is actually what was practiced by Muhammed the Messenger of Allah and those with him, and not the distorted picture of Islam as promoted among the masses today by the pen of the historians and human conjecture) set in motion a gradual process of improvement in the status of those in bondage and culminating in the abolition of this institution. The process started with:

"…ye…may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands posses….wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dower…"[4:25]

This conferred upon the slave girls all the rights and privileges of a wife.

Verse 36 of Sura 4 brought another big change in the status of slaves by enforcing the obligation to do good to one’s parents and in the same breath, also to the slaves:
"…do ‘Ihsan’ (goodness) to parents …and (to) what your right hands posses."[4:36]

verse 60 of Sura 9 exhorts Believers to give monetary help to those in bondage in order to alleviate their economic status:
"Alms are for…those in Bondage.."[9:60]

Verses 2:177,4:29,5:89 etc make another quantum change in this matter by urging the believers to free those in the shackles of slavery:
"…But it is righteousness…to spend of your substance out of love for Him…for the ransom of slaves.."[2:177]
"And whoever kills a believer by mistake, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave.."[4:92]
"He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation…give a slave his freedom.."[5:89]

According to Quran if a slave asks for his freedom ,the believer is left for no other choice but to accede to his request and is also required to help him with funds in order to rehabilitate him as a free man:

"And if any of your slaves ask you for a deed in writing (for emancipation) give them such a deed; If ye knew any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you…"[24:33]

The main source of slaves, were prisoners of war. The Quran laid down that they should be set free either for a favor or as ransom for your own prisoners of war:
"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates…"[47:4]

Thus the Quran has restricted the victor with either freeing prisoners for ransom or as a favor. There is no third choice given by the Quran, and thereby it has not only abolished slavery but abolished the very source of this evil, i.e. prisoners of war.

The basic and fundamental teaching of the Quran is that subservience is due to Allah alone and not to any human or group of humans. Obedience and sovereignty is only and only for Allah, says the Quran at numerous places. Qur'anic Islam does not accept Slavery. Unlike the Bible which states:
"ye, shall take them (the slaves) as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them (the slaves) for a possession, they shall be, your BONDMEN (slaves) for ever . . . LEVITICUS 25:46

The Qur'an unambiguously states that no man no matter how high a status he may occupy, be that status of a direct recipient of Divine messages even (Nabuwah) ,no human being has the right to enslave any other human or group of humans, says the Qur’an:
"It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and 'Nabuwah' (prophethood), then he should say to men: Be my slaves rather than Allah's; but rather (he would say): Be sustenance providers (Rabaniyoon) because of your teaching the Book and your studying (it yourselves)."[3:79]

The above clarifies the basic teaching of the Qur'an in stating that obedience is not due to any human or group of humans’ man made laws but according to the Quran, obedience and subservience is due to Allah alone, which is implemented in human affairs by following his Book (see 6:114) and instances where man subjects man, are described in the Quran as a great injustice. (Ref: Narration of enslavement of Children of Israel by Pharoah and his forces.)

From above and many other verses it is very clear that the Qur'an has abolished slavery, and not upheld it. If their remain certain verses were slaves are mentioned then these are those which were already existing in society from days of ignorance and about whom the Qur’an enjoined a gradual elevation in status leading to their freedom and abolishment of any future enslavement.

Furthermore it is the Quran which is the final authority for all matter of Islam and its verdict is final and absolute. No other Book carries more weight or reliability than the Quran in matters of Islam.
steps wrote: ( A ) : SLAVES AND SLAVERY [ PART 2 ]

Islam amended and educated the institution of slavery and the attitudes of masters to slaves. The Qur’an taught in many verses that all human beings are descended from a single ancestor, that none has an intrinsic right of superiority over another, whatever his race or his nation or his social standing. And from the Prophet’s teaching, upon him be peace, the Muslims learnt these principles, which they applied both as laws and as social norms:

Whosoever kills his slave: he shall be killed. Whosoever imprisons his slave and starves him, he shall be imprisoned and starved himself, and whosoever castrates his slave shall himself be castrated. (Abu Dawud, Diyat, 70; Tirmidhi, Diyat, 17; Al-Nasa’i, Qasama, 10, 16)

You are sons of Adam and Adam was created from clay. (Tirmidhi, Tafsir, 49; Manaqib, 73; Abu Dawud, Adab, 111)

You should know that no Arab is superior over a non-Arab and, no non-Arab is superior over any Arab, no white is superior over black and no black is superior over white. Superiority is by righteousness and God-fearing [alone]. (Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 411)
Because of this compassionate attitude, those who had lived their whole lives as slaves and who are described in ahadith as poor and lowly received respect from those who enjoyed high social status (Muslim, Birr, 138; Jannat, 48; Tirmidhi, Manaqib, 54, 65). ‘Umar was expressing his respect in this sense when he said: ‘Master Bilal whom Master Abu Bakr set free’ (Bukhari, Fada’il al-Sahaba, 23). Islam (unlike other civilizations) requires that slaves are thought of and treated as within the framework of universal human brotherhood, and not as outside it.

The Prophet, upon him be peace, said: Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them. (Bukhari, Iman, 22; Adab, 44; Muslim, Iman, 38–40; Abu Dawud, Adab, 124)

Not one of you should [when introducing someone] say ‘This is my slave’, ‘This is my concubine’. He should call them ‘my daughter’ or ‘my son’ or ‘my brother’.
(Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 2, 4)

For this reason ‘Umar and his servant took it in turns to ride on the camel from Madina to Jerusalem on their journey to take control of Masjid al-Aqsa. While he was the head of the state, ‘Uthman had his servant pull his own ears in front of the people since he had pulled his. Abu Dharr, applying the hadith literally, made his servant wear one half of his suit while he himself wore the other half. From these instances, it was being demonstrated to succeeding generations of Muslims, and a pattern of conduct established, that a slave is fully a human being, not different from other people in his need for respect and dignity and justice.

This constructive and positive treatment necessarily had a consequence on the attitudes of slaves to their masters. The slave as slave still retained his humanity and moral dignity and a place beside other members of his master’s family. When (we shall explain how below) he obtained his freedom, he did not necessarily want to leave his former master. Starting with Zaid bin Harith, this practice became quite common. Although our Prophet, upon him be peace, had given Zayd his freedom and left him a free choice, Zayd preferred to stay with him. Masters and slaves were able to regard each other as brothers because their faith enabled them to understand that the worldly differences between people are a transient situation-a situation justifying neither haughtiness on the part of some, nor rancour on the part of others. There were, in addition, strict principles enforced as law:

Whosoever kills his slave, he shall be killed, whosoever imprisons his slave and starves him, he shall be imprisoned and starved himself. (Tirmidhi, al-Ayman wa l-Nudhur, 13)
Beside such sanctions which made the master behave with care, the slave also enjoyed the legal right to earn money and hold property independently of his master, the right to keep his religion and to have a family and family life with the attendant rights and obligations. As well as personal dignity and a degree of material security, the Islamic laws and norms allowed the slave a still more precious opening-the hope and means of freedom.

Human freedom is by God, that is, it is the natural and proper condition which must be regarded as the norm. Thus, to restore a human life, wholly or partly, to this condition is one of the highest virtues. To set free half of a slave’s body has been considered equal to saving half of one’s own from wrath in the next world. In the same way to set free a slave’s whole body is considered equal to assurance of one’s whole body. Seeking freedom for enslaved people is one of the causes for which the banner of war may be raised in Islam. Muslims were encouraged by their faith to enter into agreements and contracts which enabled slaves to earn or be granted their freedom at the expiry of a certain term or, most typically, on the death of the owner. Unconditional emancipation was, naturally, regarded as the most meritorious kind, and worthiest of recognition in the life hereafter. There were occasions when whole groups of people, acting together, would buy and set free large numbers of slaves in order to obtain thereby the favour of God.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... p?p=517063

Through history the companions of prophet Mohammad and those who came after them and until now the Muslims are following these teachings .

Thanks , you are working for my benefits .

Bigmo
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Re: TheQuran Versus Shariah Law - differences and contradict

Post #14

Post by Bigmo »

steps wrote:
Bigmo wrote: The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.

WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QURANIC ISLAM AND TODAY'S MUSLIM PRACTICES?


In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�
The pillars of Islam from the holy Quran :
1- shahada
Shahada is a declaration of faith and trust that professes that there is only one God (Allah) and that Muhammad is God's messenger.

Allah says : [18. There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.] Surah 3

Allah says : [1. When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger ] Surah 63
-----------
2- the prayers
[103. When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah.s praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times. ] Surah 4
----------
3- Al-zakah
[110. And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah. for Allah sees Well all that ye do.] Surah 2

[103. Of their goods, take alms, that so thou mightest purify and sanctify them; and pray on their behalf. Verily thy prayers are a source of security for them: And Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth.] Surah 9

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4- The Fast
Allah says : [183. O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,-] Surah 2

----------
5- Hajj , pilgrimage
Allah says : [97. In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures. ] Surah 2

it is easy to destroy your claims ... as it is easy to discover that you do not know anything about the Quran .
I don't know what your pont is. I never said the 5 pillars of Islam are not mentioned at all in the Quran but why only those verses you quoted? There are many commands in the Quran but it never laid those 5 as pillars of the faith. Isn't honesty and sincerity and perseverance not pillars of faith?

Bigmo
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Re: TheQuran Versus Shariah Law - differences and contradict

Post #15

Post by Bigmo »

[Replying to post 13 by steps]

Right hand possess is a concubine. It has nothing to do with slavery. Thats Sunni/Shia talk.

In the Bible[edit source]

Among the Israelites, men commonly acknowledged their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives.[8] The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.

The concubine may not have commanded the same respect and inviolability as the wife. In the Levitical rules on sexual relations, the Hebrew word that is commonly translated as "wife" is distinct from the Hebrew word that means "concubine". (However, on at least one other occasion the term is used to refer to a woman who is not a wife - specifically, the handmaiden of Jacob's wife.[9]) In the Levitical code, sexual intercourse between a man and a wife of a different man was forbidden and punishable by death for both persons involved.[10][11] The Bible notes several incidents of intercourse between a man and another man's concubine, and none of them resulted in capital punishment for either party,[12][13][14] although the man to whom the concubine belonged was dishonored by such a relationship.[8] For instance, David is portrayed as having been dishonored when his concubines had a sexual relationship with his son Absalom.[15]

Because it was regarded as the highest blessing to have many children, legitimate wives often gave their maids to their husbands to atone, at least in part, if they were barren, as in the cases of Sarah and Hagar, and Rachel and Bilhah.[8] The children of the concubine had equal rights with those of the legitimate wife;[8] for example, King Abimelech was the son of Gideon and his concubine.[16] Later[8] biblical figures such as Gideon, and Solomon had concubines in addition to many childbearing wives. For example, the Books of Kings say that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.[17]

In Judaism[edit source]

In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword derived from the Greek word, pallakis, Greek παλλακίς,[18][19][20] meaning "a mistress staying in house".

According to the Babylonian Talmud,[8] the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrew:ketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin). Neither was the case for a concubine. One opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without a clause specifying a divorce settlement.[8]

Certain Jewish thinkers, such as Maimonides, believed that concubines were strictly reserved for kings, and thus that a commoner may not have a concubine. Indeed, such thinkers argued that commoners may not engage in any type of sexual relations outside of a marriage. Even before Maimonides' assertions, Sunni Muslims officially prohibited mutah (i.e., temporary marriage) relationships. Some commentators[who?] have suggested that Maimonides changed his view in response to the Sunni prohibition, just as Gershom ben Judah banned polygamy after Christians prohibited the practice.

Maimonides was not the first Jewish thinker to criticise concubinage. For example, Leviticus Rabbah severely condemns the custom.[21] Other Jewish thinkers, such as Nahmanides, Samuel ben Uri Shraga Phoebus, and Jacob Emden, strongly objected to the idea that concubines should be forbidden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage

It probably was a popular practice among the Jews of Medina and many Arabs of Medina might also have practiced it. Later Islamic authorities attached that meaning with slaves to legalize slavery and rape.

Its a Jewish tradition and the Quran did not encourage that form of marriage but a concubine is still an oath between two parties but there is no real protection for women. Anyways this practice in Arab countries are called "urfi marriages" where a marriage takes place by oath only with no dowry or place of living usually by people who are poor. The Quran encourages marriage like this to be elevated by ensuring financial protection and informing family members. Its also said that a women should be able to have the contract if she asked for it. Often men tear that contract and throw it away claiming there was no relationship especially when the women gets pregnant.

ikah 'urfi is a kind of Muslim marriage. It is similar to the Nikah ceremony. An 'urfi marriage is a marriage without an official contract. Couples repeat the words, "We got married" and pledge commitment before God. Usually a paper, stating that the two are married, is written and two witnesses sign it. Most Islamic countries do not recognize 'Urfi marriages and no partner can get a 'legal' divorce since the government does not recognize the legality of the marriage in the first place.[citation needed]

Urfi (Arabic: عر�ي) comes from the Arabic word 'Urf, which means custom, convention, or a customary act. Urfi is not very common, more common however is nikah Misyar. Many who adhere to Salafism engage in Misyar. Misyar marriages are very common in Arab countries and are meant to receive sexual gratification in a legitimate way, according to the Salafi doctrine. On the other hand, according to many Sunnis it is not permissible to engage in nikah misyar.[1] Many Sunnis who adhere to the Ahle-Sunnath Wal Jamath and Sufi point of views have often criticized this practice, and have related it to prostitution.[2] The term 'Nikah Misyar' has not been used as a legal term in historical Sunni jurisprudence, and is argued by many Sunnis to be something new that does not fit in within the Sunni tradition.[3]

In its modern context, 'Urfi is used to connote something that is different to official state ceremony or procedure. Thus a Nikah 'urfi' in an Islamic state may denote something similar to a common-law marriage in the west, while in some countries, such as Egypt, a Nikah 'Urfi is a marriage that takes place without the public approval of the bride's guardians, even though the contract is officiated by a religious cleric and sometimes by a state representative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_%27urfi

The Quran abolished slavery and slavery was one of the accusations Moses levied against the slavery. We are also told in the Quran that Joseph's brothers sold him as a slave out of envy of him. Slavery in the Quran is seen as an oppressive act.

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing. 2.177

The Quran not only abolished slavery for the believers it also orders them to free slaves whenever they know they exist. By the way why can't the above verse be the pillar of Islam? Why just the 5 Sunni/Shia give us?

Anyways the Sunni/Shia sect attached slavery with prisoners of war often claiming the verses of the Quran that uses "Ma Malakat Aymanukum" meaning what your right hand possess as prisoners of war that can be enslaved. Sunnis and Shias believe while the male prisoners can be freed or executed the women could be enslaved. They then say here master can have sexual relations with her. Another words, what we call sex slave. However prisoners of war are discussed in the Quran and the Quran only allowed two choices, freedom or ransom. No other choices are allowed.

O Prophet! Tell the captives you have, "If God knows goodness in your heart He will give you better rewards than have been taken from you and forgive you. He is forgiving, merciful ".And if they intend to be treacherous to you, they have been treacherous to God in the past and He has put them into your hands. 8:70-1

When you have fully overcome the enemy in the battle, then tighten their bonds, but thereafter set them free either by an act of grace or against ransom. 47:4
Whats more the Quran sees prisoners of war as an act of charity.


And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive. (Saying),"We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks 76.8-9

How these Quranic verses ended up being ignored and prisoners can now be sold as slaves and even executed is beyond me. But this is what we are facing. That is why the terrorist can not be stopped.

Quran is peace!
Last edited by Bigmo on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

steps
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Re: TheQuran Versus Shariah Law - differences and contradict

Post #16

Post by steps »

Bigmo wrote:
steps wrote:
Bigmo wrote: The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.

WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QURANIC ISLAM AND TODAY'S MUSLIM PRACTICES?


In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�
The pillars of Islam from the holy Quran :
1- shahada
Shahada is a declaration of faith and trust that professes that there is only one God (Allah) and that Muhammad is God's messenger.

Allah says : [18. There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.] Surah 3

Allah says : [1. When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger ] Surah 63
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2- the prayers
[103. When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah.s praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times. ] Surah 4
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3- Al-zakah
[110. And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah. for Allah sees Well all that ye do.] Surah 2

[103. Of their goods, take alms, that so thou mightest purify and sanctify them; and pray on their behalf. Verily thy prayers are a source of security for them: And Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth.] Surah 9

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4- The Fast
Allah says : [183. O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,-] Surah 2

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5- Hajj , pilgrimage
Allah says : [97. In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures. ] Surah 2

it is easy to destroy your claims ... as it is easy to discover that you do not know anything about the Quran .
I don't know what your pont is. I never said the 5 pillars of Islam are not mentioned at all in the Quran but why only those verses you quoted? There are many commands in the Quran but it never laid those 5 as pillars of the faith. Isn't honesty and sincerity and perseverance not pillars of faith?
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Bigmo
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Re: TheQuran Versus Shariah Law - differences and contradict

Post #17

Post by Bigmo »

[Replying to steps]

I wonder where he is wreaking his havoc now. :-k He should listen more I think. This steps guy. I don't believe in banning though. Thats how all the prophets were persecuted.

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