Allah is the most merciful .

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steps
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Allah is the most merciful .

Post #1

Post by steps »

Allah is facing our weaken by his mercifulness, our sins by his forgiveness , our small deeds by his generosity . but all of that must be under one condition : NO god but Allah . no partners beside him .

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.� [Sahīh Muslim (2687)]


Allah already has a creation which is sinless. He has the angels who “never disobey Allah in what He commands them and carry out whatever they are told to do.� [Surah al-Tahrim: 6] they glorify Allah without fail. Some arer standing in prayer, some are bowing, and some are in prostration saying: “Glory be to the the possessor of the dominion and its possessions! Glory be to the possessor of might and irresistible power. Glory be to the Living One who never dies!�

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I see and hear what you do not. The heavens heaved, and they have a right to do so, since there is not a place the width of a handspan that is not occupied by an angel prostrating his forehead to Allah.� [Sunan al-Tirmidhi (2312) and Sunan Ibn Majah (4190)]

In spite of all this, Allah in His wisdom wanted to create beings besides the angels – human beings who would need to be guided to the proper path and who were capable of going astray. Allah says: “Lo! We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving.� [Surah al-Insan: 3]

This is the nature upon which Allah created the human being. It is unavoidable that people will err. Therefore Allah has permitted us to ask His forgiveness. Indeed, He exhorts us to do so, and He promises us His forgiveness.

We should make it a habit to seek Allah’s forgiveness as often as we can. Constancy in beseeching forgiveness is a cure for the maladies of the heart as well as a means of having our sins erased.

prophet Mohammad peace be upon him said : [ “Verily, Allah created mercy; on the day He created it, He made it into one hundred parts. He kept with Him ninety-nine parts, and sent one part to all His creatures. Had the disbeliever known the mercy which is in the hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known the punishment which is with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hellfire.�]

A Troubled Man
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Post #51

Post by A Troubled Man »

Steps appears to be obsessed with non-believers and how much his god will revel in our eternal painful demise in the afterlife.

One wonders if he is wringing his hands in delight as he preaches such hatred.

steps
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Post #52

Post by steps »

The Messenger of Allah said : A man from my Nation will be summoned in front of everyone (at the scales) on the Day of Resurrection, and there will be brought out and unfurled for him ninety-nine scrolls, each scroll extending as far as the eye can see. Then Allah 'Aza wa jal will say: Do you deny any of this [i.e. your bad deeds]? So the man will reply: No, O Rubb (Lord) Then it will be said: Do you have any excuse or any good deed (to compensate)? The man, in a state of terror, will answer: No. It will then be said: No, indeed you do have good deeds and no injustice will befall you this day. So a parchment will be taken out for him, upon which there will be the Testimony of Faith: (Shahadah) There is no deity but Allah and that Muhammad (SAW) is the Slave and Messenger of Allah. The man will say: 0h Rubb (Lord), what is this parchment in comparison to those scrolls! It will be said to him: No injustice shall befall you. The scrolls will then be placed in one of the scales and the parchment in the other; the scrolls will be light in weight, whereas the parchment will be heavy."

from the saying of prophet Mohammad we can conclude the importance of monotheism .which will be the new subject .

286. On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

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Post #53

Post by TG123 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
TG123 wrote:
Sure they have. They don't thank their Creator. Without God who created us, we wouldn't even be alive today.
A Troubled Man wrote: That is because we understand evolution created us, not your God. You don't see scientists running around thanking, praising and worshiping evolution.
Yet many of them use it to "prove" there is no God.
You say God threatening us is bad because we don't like being threatened. Many of us don't like a lot of things. That doesn't mean everyone and nature as well needs to accomodate us.
A Troubled Man wrote: Uh, are you aware there are actually laws in societies for making threats, which have absolutely nothing to do with things we don't like.
Yet in society, a police officer can threaten to arrest someone for speeding. A zookeeper can threaten to fine someone for feeding the animals. You should be raging at society in general then, yet you focus mostly on God (from what I have read of your posts, anyways).
So evolution is a process in which organisms (living things) change over time. You stated "evolution created all life". If evolution is a process, then claiming it created all life is a nonsensical statement, since for evolution to exist in the first place, there would have needed to be life which it could act upon to evolve into other life.
Clearly, evolution did not create all life. Life existed before evolution, by definition.
A Troubled Man wrote: Did you even see the part where I said evolution created life in it's current form. Abiogenesis is the hypothesis regarding the origins of life itself.
Even though Darwin himself focused on the origin of species, some scientists have tried to apply the concept of evolution to the first life to form the concept of abiogenesis. In 1924, Russian biochemist Alexander Oparin proposed that living cells arose gradually from nonliving matter through a sequence of chemical reactions. According to Oparin, gases present in the atmosphere of primitive earth, when induced by lightening or other sources of energy, would react to form simple organic compounds. These compounds would subsequently self-assemble into increasingly complex molecules such as proteins. These, in turn, would organize themselves into living cells. - See more at: http://www.allaboutscience.org/abiogene ... yNGy9.dpuf

Is the above blurb what you are making a reference to? Assuming this is true, the obvious question to ask would be, where did the non-living matter come from?

If you keep reading the article, you will see that there are a lot of problems with this theory.
So what or Who created life?
A Troubled Man wrote: There is no "who", there is only "what", and that is what Abiogenesis attempts to explain.
Then Who or What created the non-living matter, like the gases in the "primitive earth" (how did that come to be, by the way?) or the lightning that allegedly struck them?
I didn't say non-believers don't help others. I said that people who follow God will help others.
A Troubled Man wrote: I know what you said, which I responded that those who follow God to help others are doing so for selfish reasons, to get in good with the big guy, so to speak.
Not true, you are making false generalizations. I do what I can to help others not "get in good" with God, but because I love Him and love others. I do what I can to help others, but have no expectations that God will reward me for that.
Of course there is. The thing to be saved from is hell.
A Troubled Man wrote: No one has ever shown hell to exist, hence there is nothing to be saved from.
We will all learn that hell and heaven are real after we die. Jesus spoke about hell and heaven.
It is a myth (and a laughable one at that) that all life was formed by a process that requires previous life to exist for it to even happen. Eternal joy and salvation are realities.
A Troubled Man wrote: No, those are religious beliefs based on myths and superstitions. Evolution is a fact, not a myth.
A theory that teaches that human beings and all other life involved from some chemical reactions is not "fact". It is a theory at best, and a ridiculous one at that.
Fair enough, it is a threat. God doesn't want people to perish, so He tells us how to get to Heaven. A police officer in a high school doesn't want kids to have criminal records, so he'll tell them to not break the law. If they do though, he will need to take legal action.
A Troubled Man wrote: Your analogy fails because police officers don't demand worship and praise like your God.
They also didn't create us or die for us on the cross, or make it possible for us to live forever in an eternity of joy. They are not omnipotent or omnipresent. All these things, and many more, are true of God. So of course He deserves worship, and they don't.

But you getting mad at God for threatening people is in my eyes hypocritical, since you don't get mad at others for doing the same.
The only problem with this comparison is that there is no despot- or anyone else for that matter- who is similar to God, so your statement makes no sense.
A Troubled Man wrote: Most certainly there have been despots that behaved exactly like your God, that is the point entirely.
Really? Which despot created you and all humanity? Pol Pot or Mao Tse Tung? Was it Hitler or Stalin who suffered for you and us all on the cross? Did Pinochet create Paradise, or was it Mobutu? Please tell me which despot is like God.
And you still haven't provided a definition of "ethics" and "morals", or any reason why it should be used.
A Troubled Man wrote: I don't provide definitions, the English language does.

eth·ics
[eth-iks] Show IPA
plural noun
1.
( used with a singular or plural verb ) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.
2.
the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.
3.
moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.
4.
( usually used with a singular verb ) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.
Compare axiological ethics, deontological ethics.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethics


mor·al
[mawr-uhl, mor-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.
2.
expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work.
3.
founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.
4.
capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.
5.
conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral ): a moral man.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morals?s=t

Are the definitions above the ones you use?
Sorry, these aren't options. God made Heaven and Hell as the only 2 eternal realities after our life here on earth is finished. Choose Heaven or by default you end up in the other place.
A Troubled Man wrote: Again, those are merely religious beliefs based on ancient myths and superstitions, they are far from being anything in reality. And if your God only provides those two alternatives, once again, He is behaving exactly like a despot.
How do you know that these beliefs are "far from being anything in reality"?
Why should God be obliged to offer you more than two alternatives?
A Troubled Man wrote: Anakin:"If you're not with me, then you're my enemy."

Obi-Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Is Anakin God?
The alternative to Hell is Heaven. You know how to get there. All you need to do is believe.
A Troubled Man wrote: Yes, by tossing out every single ounce of reason, rationale and logic so as to "believe" in a myth, I too could delude myself. But of course, there are plenty of alternatives, even with other religions, let alone reality.
You haven't explained how "reason, rationale and logic" need to be tossed out in order for you to believe.
Only unlike despots who are unable to create life, don't possess infinite wisdom and power and haven't created Paradise, God has the right to demand worship because of the differences I just listed.[/quote
A Troubled Man wrote: Strawman fallacy. We are talking about behavior, not who possess more power. Of course, we know despots have far more power on earth than any god.
We are discussing behaviour, but if we are discussing God's behaviour we also need to discuss who He is. A man giving you a speeding ticket for no reason is oppressing you. We can condemn his behaviour. But if we find out he is a cop and you were doing 180 km/hour in an maximum 80km/hour zone, the situation changes.
That the folks at the zoo aren't infinitely powerful and wise, or that God is? God by Biblical definition meets all these criteria.
A Troubled Man wrote: So what? We can find all kinds of things in the Bible that are false. That has been accomplished by a number of scholars already.
Please list them. I would be glad to discuss them with you.
What would a person with "honor, integrity and respect" bow down to then?
A Troubled Man wrote: People with honor, integrity and respect don't bow down to anyone. We are all humans, equal. No one deserves to be worshiped.
What makes you state that having "honor, integrity and respect" would mean one would not bow down to God?
Everyone has something they greatly value.
A Troubled Man wrote: Speak for yourself.
You seem to value what you see as "honor, integrity and respect" as well as you definition of "morals" and "ethics".
I had no idea Xerxes was the Creator of the Universe and of all life, and that He was all-knowing and created an eternal paradise for humanity. I don't think Leonidas believed that about him either. Again, your example doesn't work.[/b]
A Troubled Man wrote: Another strawman fallacy, same one as above. Xerxes did in fact claim he was god and it matters not whether he created the universe or not, it is his behavior, like your God, that is reprehensible, unethical and immoral.
If Xerxes claimed he was God but wasn't, he was a liar. You haven't defined what according to you is "moral" or "ethical", or how you arrived at these definitions.

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Post #54

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
Yet many of them use it to "prove" there is no God.
I have never seen that. If many, then you should be able to provide us with ample examples.
Yet in society, a police officer can threaten to arrest someone for speeding. A zookeeper can threaten to fine someone for feeding the animals. You should be raging at society in general then, yet you focus mostly on God (from what I have read of your posts, anyways).
You don't appear to understand the obvious, the police officer and the zookeeper are not threatening anyone with eternal damnation because they don't praise and worship them.
Even though Darwin himself focused on the origin of species, some scientists have tried to apply the concept of evolution to the first life to form the concept of abiogenesis.
So what?
Assuming this is true, the obvious question to ask would be, where did the non-living matter come from?
Chemicals.
If you keep reading the article, you will see that there are a lot of problems with this theory.
So what? No one has stated abiogenesis is a complete theory.

From the same website...

"God Did It -- An Argument from Ignorance or Evidence?"

http://www.allaboutscience.org/god-did-it.htm


Then Who or What created the non-living matter, like the gases in the "primitive earth" (how did that come to be, by the way?) or the lightning that allegedly struck them?
The physical laws, of course.
Not true, you are making false generalizations. I do what I can to help others not "get in good" with God, but because I love Him and love others. I do what I can to help others, but have no expectations that God will reward me for that.
You just said you do it because you love God.
We will all learn that hell and heaven are real after we die. Jesus spoke about hell and heaven.
So what? You appear to be fine with criticizing abiogenesis as having many problems, yet you have no problem taking the word of someone hundreds of years ago that such fantasy realms actually exist.

You criticize science, but not your own blind faith.
A theory that teaches that human beings and all other life involved from some chemical reactions is not "fact". It is a theory at best, and a ridiculous one at that.
Yet, you will accept that heaven and hell exist, because a carpenter said so.
They also didn't create us or die for us on the cross, or make it possible for us to live forever in an eternity of joy. They are not omnipotent or omnipresent. All these things, and many more, are true of God. So of course He deserves worship, and they don't.
You are using blind faith in your beliefs to rationalize worshiping a god that has never been shown to exist, yet you complain that scientific theories are "ridiculous".

Sorry, but no one deserves worship, let alone worship that is demanded and severely punished if not acknowledged.
But you getting mad at God for threatening people is in my eyes hypocritical, since you don't get mad at others for doing the same.
If others put a gun to my head and demanded I worship and praise them or they will blow my head off, I would have a problem with that, too.
Really? Which despot created you and all humanity? Pol Pot or Mao Tse Tung? Was it Hitler or Stalin who suffered for you and us all on the cross? Did Pinochet create Paradise, or was it Mobutu? Please tell me which despot is like God.
That is a strawman. We are talking about behavior patterns.


Are the definitions above the ones you use?
They are adequate, so what?
How do you know that these beliefs are "far from being anything in reality"?
Not only have they never been shown to exist, they violate many physical laws.
Why should God be obliged to offer you more than two alternatives?
Because putting a gun to ones head as the only alternative is not an alternative at all. It is a threat.
Is Anakin God?
Strawman.
You haven't explained how "reason, rationale and logic" need to be tossed out in order for you to believe.
Because there is no reason, rationale and logic to religious beliefs.
We are discussing behaviour, but if we are discussing God's behaviour we also need to discuss who He is.
That is irrelevant.
Please list them. I would be glad to discuss them with you.
Not interested, it has been done already.
What makes you state that having "honor, integrity and respect" would mean one would not bow down to God?
Because folks who have honor, integrity and respect never bow down to psychotics whose only interest is being worshiped and praised.

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Post #55

Post by TG123 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
TG123 wrote:
Yet many of them use it to "prove" there is no God.
A Troubled Man wrote: I have never seen that. If many, then you should be able to provide us with ample examples.
Richard Dawkins:

You see, if you say something positive like the whole of life – all living things – is descended from a single common ancestor which lived about 4,000 million years ago and that we are all cousins, well that is an exceedingly important and true thing to say and that is what I want to say. Somebody who is religious sees that as threatening and so I am represented as attacking religion, and I am forced into responding to their reaction. But you do not have to see my main purpose as attacking religion. Certainly I see the scientific view of the world as incompatible with religion, but that is not what is interesting about it. It is also incompatible with magic, but that also is not worth stressing. What is interesting about the scientific world view is that it is true, inspiring, remarkable and that it unites a whole lot of phenomena under a single heading. And that is what is so exciting for me.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

Yet in society, a police officer can threaten to arrest someone for speeding. A zookeeper can threaten to fine someone for feeding the animals. You should be raging at society in general then, yet you focus mostly on God (from what I have read of your posts, anyways).
A Troubled Man wrote: You don't appear to understand the obvious, the police officer and the zookeeper are not threatening anyone with eternal damnation because they don't praise and worship them.
Irrelevant. They threaten people as God does. God may threaten us with more than other authorities, but He is also much more and has given us and offers much more than any other authority.
Even though Darwin himself focused on the origin of species, some scientists have tried to apply the concept of evolution to the first life to form the concept of abiogenesis.
So what?
Assuming this is true, the obvious question to ask would be, where did the non-living matter come from?
A Troubled Man wrote: Chemicals.
And where did they come from?
If you keep reading the article, you will see that there are a lot of problems with this theory.
A Troubled Man wrote: So what? No one has stated abiogenesis is a complete theory.

From the same website...

"God Did It -- An Argument from Ignorance or Evidence?"

http://www.allaboutscience.org/god-did-it.htm
If abiogenesis is an incomplete theory, then claiming that evolution created life through it is a ridiculous statement. It is far less ridiculous than stating that an eternal Being created everyone and everything.
Then Who or What created the non-living matter, like the gases in the "primitive earth" (how did that come to be, by the way?) or the lightning that allegedly struck them?
A Troubled Man wrote: The physical laws, of course.
How do "physical laws" go about creating gases and lightning? And who created the physical laws?
Not true, you are making false generalizations. I do what I can to help others not "get in good" with God, but because I love Him and love others. I do what I can to help others, but have no expectations that God will reward me for that.
A Troubled Man wrote: You just said you do it because you love God.
Yes. But I don't expect He will reward me for doing so. I don't do it "to get in good with the big guy". He died for me on the cross and has saved me. I want nothing more.
We will all learn that hell and heaven are real after we die. Jesus spoke about hell and heaven.
A Troubled Man wrote: So what? You appear to be fine with criticizing abiogenesis as having many problems, yet you have no problem taking the word of someone hundreds of years ago that such fantasy realms actually exist.
Because unlike scientists, Jesus is God.
A Troubled Man wrote: You criticize science, but not your own blind faith.
Why would I criticize God, who is perfect and good, and instead place my trust in scientific ideas that can't even explain where matter came from?
A theory that teaches that human beings and all other life involved from some chemical reactions is not "fact". It is a theory at best, and a ridiculous one at that.
A Troubled Man wrote: Yet, you will accept that heaven and hell exist, because a carpenter said so.
You are very much correct. And one day you will bow down before this carpenter also.
They also didn't create us or die for us on the cross, or make it possible for us to live forever in an eternity of joy. They are not omnipotent or omnipresent. All these things, and many more, are true of God. So of course He deserves worship, and they don't.
A Troubled Man wrote: You are using blind faith in your beliefs to rationalize worshiping a god that has never been shown to exist, yet you complain that scientific theories are "ridiculous".
Correct. Looking at this world, it is obvious Someone intelligent must have created it. Science has been unable to offer a realistic alternative to this.
A Troubled Man wrote: Sorry, but no one deserves worship, let alone worship that is demanded and severely punished if not acknowledged.
No one but God.
But you getting mad at God for threatening people is in my eyes hypocritical, since you don't get mad at others for doing the same.
A Troubled Man wrote: If others put a gun to my head and demanded I worship and praise them or they will blow my head off, I would have a problem with that, too.
God doesn't put a gun to your head. He allows you to live your life, and gives you oppurtunity after oppurtunity to come to Him. This discussion is one of them, for example. He created you. He loves you. He suffered for you. He has told you what your life will be like in eternity if you believe in Him and follow Him... and what it
will be like if you don't. You have your whole lifetime to decide.
Really? Which despot created you and all humanity? Pol Pot or Mao Tse Tung? Was it Hitler or Stalin who suffered for you and us all on the cross? Did Pinochet create Paradise, or was it Mobutu? Please tell me which despot is like God.
A Troubled Man wrote: That is a strawman. We are talking about behavior patterns.
The behaviour patterns of despots. Before engaging in discussion about this more with you, I need to know which despot is like God.

Are the definitions above the ones you use?
A Troubled Man wrote: They are adequate, so what?
Fantastic. Ethics are defined as the moral principles of a culture or individuals, and
morals are defined as ethical attitudes, distinction between right and wrong, principles of "right conduct". Do you believe ethics and morals are important?
How do you know that these beliefs are "far from being anything in reality"?
A Troubled Man wrote: Not only have they never been shown to exist, they violate many physical laws.
Which laws? And what makes you assume they cannot be violated?
Why should God be obliged to offer you more than two alternatives?
A Troubled Man wrote: Because putting a gun to ones head as the only alternative is not an alternative at all. It is a threat.
There is no gun. Even if there was, you haven't explained why God should be obliged to not threaten you.
Is Anakin God?
A Troubled Man wrote: Strawman.
Nope.
You haven't explained how "reason, rationale and logic" need to be tossed out in order for you to believe.
A Troubled Man wrote: Because there is no reason, rationale and logic to religious beliefs.
It is logical to assume that everything was created by something. It is illogical to assume things naturally came out of nothing. It is more logical to believe that God, who always existed, created everything, than it is to assume that the world came out of chemicals that no one knows the origin of.
We are discussing behaviour, but if we are discussing God's behaviour we also need to discuss who He is.
A Troubled Man wrote: That is irrelevant.
Nope.
Please list them. I would be glad to discuss them with you.
A Troubled Man wrote: Not interested, it has been done already.
When you are, I will be glad to continue this conversation. In the meanwhile, I will pray that God opens your eyes.
What makes you state that having "honor, integrity and respect" would mean one would not bow down to God?
A Troubled Man wrote: Because folks who have honor, integrity and respect never bow down to psychotics whose only interest is being worshiped and praised.
It's a false statement that God's only interest is being worshiped and praised. He has a great interest in the poor, and orders His followers to help them. He has an interest in us finding eternal joy in Paradise, and through the cross He made it possible. Yes, God does want us to worship Him. To state this is His "only interest" reveals either an ignorance or deliberate ignoring of what is in the Bible.

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Post #56

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
Yet many of them use it to "prove" there is no God.
That was your claim, to which you provided this quote...
Certainly I see the scientific view of the world as incompatible with religion,
Dawkins is not by any stretch of the imagination attempting to prove there is no God, he is merely stating that science and religion are incompatible, which is obviously true.

Serious failure on your part.

Irrelevant. They threaten people as God does.
That is entirely false and you know it. They are not demanding they be worshiped and praised, or else. God does.
God may threaten us with more than other authorities, but He is also much more and has given us and offers much more than any other authority.
Strawman, yet again.
Even though Darwin himself focused on the origin of species, some scientists have tried to apply the concept of evolution to the first life to form the concept of abiogenesis.
So what?
And where did they come from?
Other exploding stars in which the process of necleosynthesis creates the elements we find today here on earth.
If abiogenesis is an incomplete theory, then claiming that evolution created life through it is a ridiculous statement. It is far less ridiculous than stating that an eternal Being created everyone and everything.
Sorry, but even if abiogenesis is wrong, it does nothing whatsoever to refute evolution, which is a fact.

A magical invisible super being waving his magical hand is more logical and rational? :lol:
How do "physical laws" go about creating gases and lightning? And who created the physical laws?
No "ONE" created the physical laws, the came about as a result of the Big Bang. You are free to research gases and lightning on your own.
Yes. But I don't expect He will reward me for doing so. I don't do it "to get in good with the big guy". He died for me on the cross and has saved me. I want nothing more.
And, saving you was not a reward?
Because unlike scientists, Jesus is God.
Strawman.
Why would I criticize God, who is perfect and good, and instead place my trust in scientific ideas that can't even explain where matter came from?
That is totally hypocritical. Science has brought you everything you have today, including your computer, your internet connection and the very forums you are writing on to deny these facts. If you truly have no trust in science, you should therefore be living in a cave.
You are very much correct. And one day you will bow down before this carpenter also.
No, I wont, and no amount of threats from you or any other believer will change that.

Of course, when it comes time, you will be bowing down before Allah and a long lineup of other gods all waiting in line to judge you.

Consider it a "Divine Hazing"
Correct. Looking at this world, it is obvious Someone intelligent must have created it.
Sorry, but there is no indications whatsoever of any intelligence having created our world. None, zip, nada. In fact, our entire universe only shows evidence that it came about entirely on it's own, no gods were required.

God doesn't put a gun to your head. He allows you to live your life, and gives you oppurtunity after oppurtunity to come to Him.
No, God DEMANDS worship and praise, or else. There are no "opportunities" there, only threats.
This discussion is one of them, for example. He created you.
Sorry, but science has already shown evolution created us in the form we are today.
He loves you.
Yes, by putting a gun to my head and demanding worship and praise, or else.

True love, that.
He suffered for you.
Gods can suffer? Since when?
He has told you what your life will be like in eternity if you believe in Him and follow Him... and what it
will be like if you don't. You have your whole lifetime to decide.
Many gods tell us the same thing. They too will threaten us if we don't worship and praise them, too. Try to imagine what's in store for you if you are worshiping and praising the wrong god.
The behaviour patterns of despots. Before engaging in discussion about this more with you, I need to know which despot is like God.
The all behave like your god, take your pick.

Fantastic. Ethics are defined as the moral principles of a culture or individuals, and
morals are defined as ethical attitudes, distinction between right and wrong, principles of "right conduct". Do you believe ethics and morals are important?
Yes, which is why I'm not a believer.
Which laws? And what makes you assume they cannot be violated?
That is why they are laws, because they cannot be violated. It isn't an assumption, it is a fact based on understanding those laws. There are far too many laws to list here, but we understand the vast majority of them would have to violated if gods exist.
There is no gun. Even if there was, you haven't explained why God should be obliged to not threaten you.
Simple, that kind of behavior is reprehensible and lacks any form of morals and ethics. When believers accept and believe that, they too begin to act the same way, threatening others without an ounce of ethics or morals, themselves.
It is logical to assume that everything was created by something. It is illogical to assume things naturally came out of nothing. It is more logical to believe that God, who always existed, created everything, than it is to assume that the world came out of chemicals that no one knows the origin of.
Those are merely arguments from ignorance and appeal to beliefs fallacies.
When you are, I will be glad to continue this conversation. In the meanwhile, I will pray that God opens your eyes.
:lol: Yes, I understand your religion teaches you to say such things, as laughable as they are.
It's a false statement that God's only interest is being worshiped and praised. He has a great interest in the poor, and orders His followers to help them. He has an interest in us finding eternal joy in Paradise, and through the cross He made it possible. Yes, God does want us to worship Him. To state this is His "only interest" reveals either an ignorance or deliberate ignoring of what is in the Bible.
Yes, hence tens of thousands of innocent children die daily from starvation, praying for a morsel of food from your god.

Yet, we find so many other believers praising God for finding their car keys or getting them out of traffic jams.

Oh yes, I do understand there are a great deal of things God demands, but unfortunately, getting past the praise and worship part, or else, is enough for any sane person to reject it wholeheartedly as having a complete lack of morals and ethics. It is pure selfishness on the part of God to behave in this way.

TG123
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Post #57

Post by TG123 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
TG123 wrote:
Yet many of them use it to "prove" there is no God.
A Troubled Man wrote: That was your claim, to which you provided this quote...
Certainly I see the scientific view of the world as incompatible with religion,
Dawkins is not by any stretch of the imagination attempting to prove there is no God, he is merely stating that science and religion are incompatible, which is obviously true.

Serious failure on your part.
You are right, I misrepresented his words. It was a serious fail on my part.

Dawkins does not say that science proves God does not exist, but he did say that science is incompatible with religion... which would mean in most cases the existence of God. I do not agree with this. I believe science points to God's existence.
Irrelevant. They threaten people as God does.
A Troubled Man wrote: That is entirely false and you know it. They are not demanding they be worshiped and praised, or else. God does.
So are you saying a threat is only a threat if the person giving it demands to be worshiped and praised?
God may threaten us with more than other authorities, but He is also much more and has given us and offers much more than any other authority.
A Troubled Man wrote: Strawman, yet again.
No, it's the truth. And it shows why you comparing Him to earthly authorities is an absurd argument.
Even though Darwin himself focused on the origin of species, some scientists have tried to apply the concept of evolution to the first life to form the concept of abiogenesis.
A Troubled Man wrote: So what?
So biogenesis still does not come close to explaining how the world came to be, and it makes no sense.
And where did they come from?
A Troubled Man wrote: Other exploding stars in which the process of necleosynthesis creates the elements we find today here on earth.
And where did these exploding stars come from?
If abiogenesis is an incomplete theory, then claiming that evolution created life through it is a ridiculous statement. It is far less ridiculous than stating that an eternal Being created everyone and everything.
A Troubled Man wrote: Sorry, but even if abiogenesis is wrong, it does nothing whatsoever to refute evolution, which is a fact.
How can it be "a fact" when scientists are unable to explain the origins of what life "evolved" from?
A Troubled Man wrote: A magical invisible super being waving his magical hand is more logical and rational? :lol:
Definitely. At least we know He is eternal. Unlike your gases and exploding stars and other pixie dust that you can't even explain the origins of.
How do "physical laws" go about creating gases and lightning? And who created the physical laws?
A Troubled Man wrote: No "ONE" created the physical laws, the came about as a result of the Big Bang. You are free to research gases and lightning on your own.
And where did the Big Bang come from? Where did gases and lightning come from?

Obviously, they were created.

As a sidenote, how could reactions of non-living things create living things? Haven't you heard of Cell Theory?


All living organisms are composed of one or more cells.
The cell is the basic unit of structure, function, and organization in all organisms.
All cells come from preexisting, living cells .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_theory
Yes. But I don't expect He will reward me for doing so. I don't do it "to get in good with the big guy". He died for me on the cross and has saved me. I want nothing more.
A Troubled Man wrote: And, saving you was not a reward?
He saved me because I put my faith in Him, not because I help other people. I do that because I want to follow Him and serve Him.
Because unlike scientists, Jesus is God.
A Troubled Man wrote: Strawman.
Truth.
Why would I criticize God, who is perfect and good, and instead place my trust in scientific ideas that can't even explain where matter came from?
A Troubled Man wrote: That is totally hypocritical. Science has brought you everything you have today, including your computer, your internet connection and the very forums you are writing on to deny these facts. If you truly have no trust in science, you should therefore be living in a cave.
"Science" didn't "bring us" anything, observations and experiments and work of people did. They used their brains and natural resources around them... both of which were given to them and all of us by God.
You are very much correct. And one day you will bow down before this carpenter also.
A Troubled Man wrote: No, I wont, and no amount of threats from you or any other believer will change that.
Don't worry, you will. :)
A Troubled Man wrote: Of course, when it comes time, you will be bowing down before Allah and a long lineup of other gods all waiting in line to judge you.
Allah is simply God in Arabic, so of course I will bow down to Him. So will you.
A Troubled Man wrote: Consider it a "Divine Hazing"
Every knee with bow, including yours. If you put your faith in Him now, you will bow down willingly and gladly, and will go to Paradise. If you don't, you will bow down because you were forced to, and will go to hell.
Correct. Looking at this world, it is obvious Someone intelligent must have created it.
A Troubled Man wrote: Sorry, but there is no indications whatsoever of any intelligence having created our world. None, zip, nada. In fact, our entire universe only shows evidence that it came about entirely on it's own, no gods were required.
How did it come about "on its own"? From what?
God doesn't put a gun to your head. He allows you to live your life, and gives you oppurtunity after oppurtunity to come to Him.
A Troubled Man wrote: No, God DEMANDS worship and praise, or else. There are no "opportunities" there, only threats.
Of course there are, you have the oppurtunity to worship Him.
This discussion is one of them, for example. He created you.
A Troubled Man wrote: Sorry, but science has already shown evolution created us in the form we are today.
The theory of evolution is an absurd and laughable example of what happens when people try to deny God's work and come up with their own ideas.
He loves you.
A Troubled Man wrote: Yes, by putting a gun to my head and demanding worship and praise, or else.
True love, that.
Yes, He demands that you worship Him and follow Him. You can choose to obey or disobey. The choice is yours.
He suffered for you.
A Troubled Man wrote: Gods can suffer? Since when?
Since He died for you on the cross.
He has told you what your life will be like in eternity if you believe in Him and follow Him... and what it
will be like if you don't. You have your whole lifetime to decide.
A Troubled Man wrote: Many gods tell us the same thing. They too will threaten us if we don't worship and praise them, too. Try to imagine what's in store for you if you are worshiping and praising the wrong god.
I know God is real. One day you will know that too.
The behaviour patterns of despots. Before engaging in discussion about this more with you, I need to know which despot is like God.
A Troubled Man wrote: The all behave like your god, take your pick.
None of them are like God.

Fantastic. Ethics are defined as the moral principles of a culture or individuals, and
morals are defined as ethical attitudes, distinction between right and wrong, principles of "right conduct". Do you believe ethics and morals are important?
A Troubled Man wrote: Yes, which is why I'm not a believer.
Well, in Ancient Greece, the moral principles of the culture called for sick infants to be left to die. In the southern US during the early 20th century, moral principles of the culture called for African Americans to sit at the back of buses. Before the Civil War, cultural morals called for them to answer "yes ma'asr" to a white man and to accept that they were property. Moral principles in Nazi Germany called for good Aryan Germans to avoid Jews and other "subhumans" and if at all possible, make life even more difficult for them.

Go ahead and reject God, and live by "ethics and morals". They depend on, and change from culture to culture, and from time to time. I would rather follow Him rather than what my culture decides as "right" and "wrong".
Which laws? And what makes you assume they cannot be violated?
A Troubled Man wrote: That is why they are laws, because they cannot be violated. It isn't an assumption, it is a fact based on understanding those laws. There are far too many laws to list here, but we understand the vast majority of them would have to violated if gods exist.
Name one.
There is no gun. Even if there was, you haven't explained why God should be obliged to not threaten you.
A Troubled Man wrote: Simple, that kind of behavior is reprehensible and lacks any form of morals and ethics. When believers accept and believe that, they too begin to act the same way, threatening others without an ounce of ethics or morals, themselves.
According to some cultures, it is ethical to demand obedience and worhip from an authority figure, so your appeal to "morals and ethics" falls flat. Demanding worship would be reprehensible for anyone but God, Who created us and loves us and offers us eternal joy. No one else can do this.
It is logical to assume that everything was created by something. It is illogical to assume things naturally came out of nothing. It is more logical to believe that God, who always existed, created everything, than it is to assume that the world came out of chemicals that no one knows the origin of.
A Troubled Man wrote: Those are merely arguments from ignorance and appeal to beliefs fallacies.
Do you disagree that everything must come from something? Or that all living things come from other living things?
When you are, I will be glad to continue this conversation. In the meanwhile, I will pray that God opens your eyes.
A Troubled Man wrote: :lol: Yes, I understand your religion teaches you to say such things, as laughable as they are.
It definitely does, and I will keep praying for you. :)
It's a false statement that God's only interest is being worshiped and praised. He has a great interest in the poor, and orders His followers to help them. He has an interest in us finding eternal joy in Paradise, and through the cross He made it possible. Yes, God does want us to worship Him. To state this is His "only interest" reveals either an ignorance or deliberate ignoring of what is in the Bible.
A Troubled Man wrote: Yes, hence tens of thousands of innocent children die daily from starvation, praying for a morsel of food from your god.
If people obeyed God, no one in the world would be starving.
A Troubled Man wrote: Yet, we find so many other believers praising God for finding their car keys or getting them out of traffic jams.
What is wrong with doing that?
A Troubled Man wrote: Oh yes, I do understand there are a great deal of things God demands, but unfortunately, getting past the praise and worship part, or else, is enough for any sane person to reject it wholeheartedly as having a complete lack of morals and ethics. It is pure selfishness on the part of God to behave in this way.
:)
Going by the definition of morals and ethics you accept, I am glad sticking to God's teachings as are revealed in the Bible. :)

A Troubled Man
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Post #58

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
Dawkins does not say that science proves God does not exist, but he did say that science is incompatible with religion... which would mean in most cases the existence of God. I do not agree with this. I believe science points to God's existence.
That is as utterly absurd as it is dishonest.
So are you saying a threat is only a threat if the person giving it demands to be worshiped and praised?
It's interesting that you still don't understand this very simple concept. I see no point in trying to further explain it to you.
No, it's the truth. And it shows why you comparing Him to earthly authorities is an absurd argument.
Strawman fallacy.
So biogenesis still does not come close to explaining how the world came to be, and it makes no sense.
Of course, it makes no sense to the scientifically illiterate.
And where did these exploding stars come from?
Is that supposed to be a joke? Are you that scientifically illiterate that you have concept of star formation?
How can it be "a fact" when scientists are unable to explain the origins of what life "evolved" from?
Is that supposed to another joke or are you being purposely obtuse?
Definitely. At least we know He is eternal.
Anyone who makes those kinds of absolute claims are dishonest.
Unlike your gases and exploding stars and other pixie dust that you can't even explain the origins of.
That can all be explained, but the scientifically illiterate will call it pixie dust.
And where did the Big Bang come from? Where did gases and lightning come from?
More jokes? Are you seriously asking where gases and lightning come from?
Obviously, they were created.
Yes, they were created as a result of the physical laws.
As a sidenote, how could reactions of non-living things create living things?
*sigh* That's what abiogenesis is about.
Haven't you heard of Cell Theory?


All living organisms are composed of one or more cells.
The cell is the basic unit of structure, function, and organization in all organisms.
All cells come from preexisting, living cells .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_theory
Do you have a point?

He saved me because I put my faith in Him, not because I help other people. I do that because I want to follow Him and serve Him.
Exactly.
"Science" didn't "bring us" anything, observations and experiments and work of people did.
:lol: Hilarious.
Every knee with bow, including yours. If you put your faith in Him now, you will bow down willingly and gladly, and will go to Paradise. If you don't, you will bow down because you were forced to, and will go to hell.
Thank you for providing ample reason for rejecting your God and His immoral and unethical threats.
How did it come about "on its own"? From what?
I find myself repeating the same things over and over. The physical laws are how it came about on its own.
Of course there are, you have the oppurtunity to worship Him.
I would never worship an immoral despot, no sane human would.
The theory of evolution is an absurd and laughable example of what happens when people try to deny God's work and come up with their own ideas.
Since it's obvious you are scientifically illiterate and have no clue of evolution, your opinion is worthless and based on religious beliefs.

Yes, He demands that you worship Him and follow Him. You can choose to obey or disobey. The choice is yours.
The choice is obvious.
Since He died for you on the cross.
No, he didn't. He was crucified by the Romans, he had no choice in the matter. He died like so many others on the cross.
I know God is real. One day you will know that too.
Anyone who claims God is real is dishonest.
None of them are like God.
But, they all behave the same way.

Go ahead and reject God, and live by "ethics and morals". They depend on, and change from culture to culture, and from time to time. I would rather follow Him rather than what my culture decides as "right" and "wrong".
That is why your religion causes so much conflict and wars. Their followers don't care about what is right or wrong because they follow an immoral and unethical despot.

According to some cultures, it is ethical to demand obedience and worhip from an authority figure, so your appeal to "morals and ethics" falls flat.
You're just making that up.
Do you disagree that everything must come from something? Or that all living things come from other living things?
I don't agree with your strawman fallacies.
If people obeyed God, no one in the world would be starving.
That is sickening and reprehensible. You should be ashamed.
What is wrong with doing that?
So is that.
Going by the definition of morals and ethics you accept, I am glad sticking to God's teachings as are revealed in the Bible. :)
That is why you know nothing about morals and ethics, your religion does not teach it.

TG123
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Post #59

Post by TG123 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
TG123 wrote:
Dawkins does not say that science proves God does not exist, but he did say that science is incompatible with religion... which would mean in most cases the existence of God. I do not agree with this. I believe science points to God's existence.
A Troubled Man wrote: That is as utterly absurd as it is dishonest.
Just because you claim this doesn't make it so.
So are you saying a threat is only a threat if the person giving it demands to be worshiped and praised?
A Troubled Man wrote: It's interesting that you still don't understand this very simple concept. I see no point in trying to further explain it to you.
You are not ok with God issuing threats, but are ok with police officers and zookeepers doing so. Hypocrisy.
No, it's the truth. And it shows why you comparing Him to earthly authorities is an absurd argument.
A Troubled Man wrote: Strawman fallacy.
Nope.
So biogenesis still does not come close to explaining how the world came to be, and it makes no sense.
A Troubled Man wrote: Of course, it makes no sense to the scientifically illiterate.
On the contrary, it makes sense to people who are incapable of critically thinking.
And where did these exploding stars come from?
A Troubled Man wrote:Is that supposed to be a joke? Are you that scientifically illiterate that you have concept of star formation?
The joke is on you:

A star is formed out of cloud of cool, dense molecular gas. In order for it to become a potential star, the cloud needs to collapse and increase in density.

There are two common ways this can happen: it can either collide with another dense molecular cloud or it can be near enough to encounter the pressure caused by a giant supernova. Several stars can be born at once with the collision of two galaxies. In both cases, heat is needed to fuel this reaction, which comes from the mutual gravity pulling all the material inward.

Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/24190/how- ... z2bK8NpFxz

So for stars to form, we need molecules. What created the molecules? Where did they come from?
How can it be "a fact" when scientists are unable to explain the origins of what life "evolved" from?
A Troubled Man wrote: Is that supposed to another joke or are you being purposely obtuse?
No, I just don't accept your silly theory.
Definitely. At least we know He is eternal.
A Troubled Man wrote: Anyone who makes those kinds of absolute claims are dishonest.
How are people who believe in the eternity of God being "dishonest"?
Unlike your gases and exploding stars and other pixie dust that you can't even explain the origins of.
A Troubled Man wrote: That can all be explained, but the scientifically illiterate will call it pixie dust.
So far you've been failing spectacularly at doing so.
And where did the Big Bang come from? Where did gases and lightning come from?
A Troubled Man wrote: More jokes? Are you seriously asking where gases and lightning come from?
Do you not understand English? Should I try asking you in Polish?
Obviously, they were created.
A Troubled Man wrote: Yes, they were created as a result of the physical laws.
Which were created by God.
As a sidenote, how could reactions of non-living things create living things?
A Troubled Man wrote: *sigh* That's what abiogenesis is about.
It doesn't explain how such a 'creation' is possible. It is a theory that contradicts the Cell Theory. It is a sad and woeful attempt by people to come up with an alternate explanation for something that God managed to accomplish in a few days.
Haven't you heard of Cell Theory?


All living organisms are composed of one or more cells.
The cell is the basic unit of structure, function, and organization in all organisms.
All cells come from preexisting, living cells .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_theory
A Troubled Man wrote: Do you have a point?
No, a keyboard. :D
The purpose of posting the Cell Theory was to point out that all cells come from pre-existing, living cells. A non-living molecular cloud or lightning would not have living cells, since it is not alive. So to suggest that these forces created life is ludicrous. Making such a silly statement of course still leaves us with the question of where these molecules came from.

He saved me because I put my faith in Him, not because I help other people. I do that because I want to follow Him and serve Him.
A Troubled Man wrote: Exactly.
Yes.
"Science" didn't "bring us" anything, observations and experiments and work of people did.
A Troubled Man wrote: :lol: Hilarious.
Laugh away, it's good for you.
Every knee with bow, including yours. If you put your faith in Him now, you will bow down willingly and gladly, and will go to Paradise. If you don't, you will bow down because you were forced to, and will go to hell.
A Troubled Man wrote: Thank you for providing ample reason for rejecting your God and His immoral and unethical threats.
If you choose to reject Him and all the good things He has done and wants to do for you as well as all of humanity, that is sad, but go ahead.
How did it come about "on its own"? From what?
A Troubled Man wrote: I find myself repeating the same things over and over. The physical laws are how it came about on its own.
Where did they come from?
Of course there are, you have the oppurtunity to worship Him.
A Troubled Man wrote: I would never worship an immoral despot, no sane human would.
Billions are. And they realize His greatness and goodness.
The theory of evolution is an absurd and laughable example of what happens when people try to deny God's work and come up with their own ideas.
A Troubled Man wrote: Since it's obvious you are scientifically illiterate and have no clue of evolution, your opinion is worthless and based on religious beliefs.
Then why are you debating with me?

Yes, He demands that you worship Him and follow Him. You can choose to obey or disobey. The choice is yours.
A Troubled Man wrote: The choice is obvious.
Definitely. I choose to worship and follow Him.
Since He died for you on the cross.
A Troubled Man wrote: No, he didn't. He was crucified by the Romans, he had no choice in the matter. He died like so many others on the cross.
He could have called down legions of angels to rescue Him, but chose not to. Read Matthew 26.
I know God is real. One day you will know that too.
A Troubled Man wrote: Anyone who claims God is real is dishonest.
Anyone who claims He isn't is blind.
None of them are like God.
A Troubled Man wrote: But, they all behave the same way.
Which one of them created the world? Died for you on the cross? Created Paradise for you to enjoy in eternity? Knows everything?

Go ahead and reject God, and live by "ethics and morals". They depend on, and change from culture to culture, and from time to time. I would rather follow Him rather than what my culture decides as "right" and "wrong".
A Troubled Man wrote: That is why your religion causes so much conflict and wars. Their followers don't care about what is right or wrong because they follow an immoral and unethical despot.
My religion teaches to turn the other cheek and to love my enemies. When people go to war, they disobey it rather than following it. This "immoral and unethical despot" requires Christians to be truthful, help those in need, speak out for justice, be peacemakers, be humble, and do other good things to other people.
According to some cultures, it is ethical to demand obedience and worhip from an authority figure, so your appeal to "morals and ethics" falls flat.
A Troubled Man wrote: You're just making that up.
You are obviously unaware of Japanese history.

HONOR TO THE EMPEROR:
The Emperor has a symbolic position in Shintoism. Prior to World War II, he was believed to be the highest of all kami. During the Meiji period, political Shintoism developed and called for the worship of the Emperor. Emperor-worship continued until Japan's defeat in World War II. In 1945, when political Shintoism was no longer supported by the new government, it was made a private faith; the idea of Emperor worship was also ended. Nevertheless, even today, the Emperor is held in the highest regard by all the Japanese people.

http://www.historyteacher.net/GlobalHis ... nJapan.htm

So if you were to live in pre-WW2 Japan and live by "morals and ethics", you would be bowing down to the Emperor.
Do you disagree that everything must come from something? Or that all living things come from other living things?
A Troubled Man wrote: I don't agree with your strawman fallacies.
Way to go running from the question.
If people obeyed God, no one in the world would be starving.
A Troubled Man wrote: That is sickening and reprehensible. You should be ashamed.
We have enough food in the world to feed everyone. If every human being was a Christian, we would recognize that the hungry are Jesus Himself, and we would feed them.

Why you find that sickening and reprehensible, I have no idea.
What is wrong with doing that?
A Troubled Man wrote: So is that.
What? Feeding hungry people?
Going by the definition of morals and ethics you accept, I am glad sticking to God's teachings as are revealed in the Bible. :)
A Troubled Man wrote: That is why you know nothing about morals and ethics, your religion does not teach it.
I would rather worship God and serve Him and while doing so help people and be a good neighbour, than align myself with the moral values of the culture around me and potentially applaud the police as they drag my non-Aryan neighbours onto an army transport truck which will drive them to a railway station and eventually a gas chamber.

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Post #60

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
I would rather worship God and serve Him and while doing so help people and be a good neighbour, than align myself with the moral values of the culture around me and potentially applaud the police as they drag my non-Aryan neighbours onto an army transport truck which will drive them to a railway station and eventually a gas chamber.
Yes, I understand your entire argument is "Goddunnit", you deny and reject science, facts and evidence, dishonestly and hypocritically, and would rather accept the myths and superstitions of long ago rather than reality.

I think we're done here.

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