Question about the Quran

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TG123
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Question about the Quran

Post #1

Post by TG123 »

Salaam Alaikum,

This is a question to the Muslim posters on the forum. Can you please tell me what significance the Quran has for you in your faith? I know Islam teaches that God revealed it directly through the ArchAngel Gabriel to Muhammad.

Do you believe that it is 100% true and without any mistakes? I know that the Quran teaches there are no contradictions in it, would the same apply to other kinds of errors (ie scientific, historical, theological, etc)?

4:82
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

If a mistake was found in the Quran that was not a contradiction, would it still be in your opinion the word of God?


Shukran wa Allahma3k. Ramadan Mubarak aydan.

A Troubled Man
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Post #31

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
A Troubled Man wrote:
steps wrote: it is the believe of all Muslims .

The mistake would be the misunderstanding by the human himself , but the Quran does not contain one mistake .

Please write your misunderstanding about the Quran .
Some folks have produced a thousand mistakes in the Quran. Good luck with that.

http://1000mistakes.com/
I would personally stay away from sites like these. Many of them have a very shallow understanding of the Quran and hadiths, and some go as far as to misquote them. I visit these sites sometimes, but before taking anything on them seriously, I make sure to verify if they are actually true. If you want to see whether or not Islam is true, read the Quran and hadiths. That in itself should convince you that it isn`t. Don`t rely on what people with a very clear agenda against Islam or any faith or ideology for that matter for information about it, do your own research.
Shallow understanding? Based on what?

Reading the Bible convinces me that it isn't true, either.

TG123
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Post #32

Post by TG123 »

Divine Insight wrote:
TG123 wrote: I hope you to turn to Christ one day
Divine Insight wrote: The problem here is that you are totally not even understanding my position. It's impossible for me to "turn to Christ". I already agree with the morality attributed to Jesus. Therefore I am already in agreement with Jesus on moral issues. The only way for me to "turn to Christ" would be for Jesus to actually become the Christ. But that would be totally beyond my ability to control, unless of course you believe that I am God.
Turning to Christ would mean believing in His teachings, as well Who He is and what He did for you on the cross. You can totally do it. I did, and you are much more intelligent and capable than me. :)

TG123 wrote: Before going any further, I would like to state I strongly respect your honesty.
Divine Insight wrote: Thank you for recognizing that I am indeed being open and honest. That is indeed a correct observation.
No problem. :)

TG123 wrote: What makes you think that a worldview with Holy Books is incapable of expanding and evolving, or that one without them is not?
Divine Insight wrote: It's not just "Holy Books". After all, in Wicca a Book of Shadows is considered to be a "Holy Book" by many Wiccans. It's certainly their own personal Holy Book. But they don't claim it to be the "Word of God". On the contrary it is a journal of their very own thoughts and beliefs. It is also malleable and evolves as they evolve and grow through their life's experience. I personally like to rewrite my Book of Shadows almost annually. Although what I most frequently do is just add to it and modify what was previously there to include how I have grown in spirituality.
Thanks for sharing info about the Book of Shadows, and about your own Wicca faith. My questions and observations in this discussion thus far are based on what you have told me.

If the Book of Shadows is a journal of Wiccan's thoughts and beliefs, how would it be different from a person just deciding what they believe and disbelieve, and what is moral and isn't? Not trying to be rude but am just curious.
TG123 wrote: As a Christian, I am willing to learn about other faiths and views of people with no faith. I have read the Quran and am working through the hadiths. I have read "God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens, and watched "Religulous".

I have found these non-Christian books and movie to be interesting, I learned some new things. I agree with some of what is in the Quran and hadiths and even Hitchens' and Maher's material, I disagree with other things, and I have no opinion on some.

I am firmly set in the Christian faith, but that does not mean I am unwilling to read non-Christian sources or include some information from them in my worldview.
Divine Insight wrote: But that's just the point isn't it? Is the Bible your "Holy Book" or not?
Most definitely.
Divine Insight wrote: If it is, then the Bible is basically carved in stone for all intents and purposes. I mean, you can't go back and decided that there was never a fall from grace, or that Jesus isn't the sacrificial lamb of God, etc. You are not free to re-write the Bible. In this sense your spiritual belief must necessarily remain as static as the Bible as long as you continue to view the Bible as being the "Holy Word of God".
You are very much correct. I can't deny what the Bible teaches. Why would I?
Divine Insight wrote: So it is in this sense that you are unable to evolve Christianity beyond that.
OK, I see what you mean. I do however have a solid foundation. My faith in Jesus gives me hope, and always will give me hope. Unlike my thoughts, which can be evil and often are, I have a standard to live by and the Bible keeps me from giving in to them.
TG123 wrote: But science changes. In Nazi Germany, 'science' was used to determine that the Aryan race was superior to all other races, and that the Jews, Slavs, Roma etc were inferior.
Divine Insight wrote: I disagree with some of your views on "science" here. To begin with the idea that German "scientists" had used science to determine a superior race is highly questionable. What that truly objective science? Or was it just a subjective misuse of an otherwise objective methodology?
There is scientific evidence that there are some differences between "white" people and "non-white" people. Even in the US this has been recognized.

Although Darwinian theory (1859) changed the parameters of debate, polygenist theory continued to thrive under the guise of human evolution. Racial hierarchies formerly explained by separate creations remained intact, justified instead as separate racial divergences from primitive ancestors. Investigators in the emerging field of physical anthropology adopted racial classification as their primary focus, utilizing large amounts of raw data collected from Civil War soldiers, Native Americans, immigrants, and other groups to reinforce older racial hierarchies and introduce new ones. Adding the new statistical and biological advances of the early twentieth century to their analytical arsenal, physical anthropologists, psychologists, and biologists sought to quantify and rank racial differences through head shape, I.Q. tests, blood type, and even the structure of internal organs. These studies not only reinforced prevailing stereotypes of non-whites, they also became purportedly impartial justifications for the exclusion of immigrants from "inferior" southern-and eastern-European groups.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3401803491.html

Of course, the fact there are differences between "races", does not justify in any way discrimination, contempt, arrogance, or mass murder.

However, science is amoral. If one decides to base one's life on science alone, there is nothing that would either prevent or encourage what happened in Nazi Germany or during the most racist episodes in US (and Canadian) history.
As someone who believes in Christianity look at it this way; Were the people who burned midwives at the stake alive as witches in the name of Christianity truly practicing Christianity?
Divine Insight wrote: Just because someone does something in the name of some institution, belief system, or philosophy, does not mean that the underlying intuition is at fault.
Of course it doesn't, and I didn't state science is to blame.
Divine Insight wrote: I would hold this to be true of the Nazi's misuse of "science" as well. They simply did not have enough genuine information to objectively support their conclusions. They were clearly using "science" as a scapegoat for their own personal subjective bigotries. This may have even been caused by Hitler's request that they produce such evidence lest they face dire consequences as well.
Probably. However, the value of scientific findings (rigged or not) was placed above the value of Biblical teachings.
TG123 wrote: In the Middle Ages, 'known science' would mean doctors would bleed a lot of their patients to death as they tried to cure them. Now we know this is not how medicine works.
Divine Insight wrote: There was not modern "Science" in the Middle Ages. The middle ages was based far more on guesses and superstitions. The "scientific method" that we use today wasn't even truly established until men like Galileo came along, and Isaac Newton truly refined the methods of science.

So to even speak of "Middle Age Science" is actually a misnomer and a false representation of "modern science".
Note that I wrote "known science", not "modern science". Everything that is current is "modern". What would seem superstitions and guesses for us was "modern science" to them. And it was wrong.
TG123 wrote: So if your belief is based on known science, it would mean that at times it is dangerously wrong.
Divine Insight wrote: My belief system is not based on science. It's simply not in conflict with any known science. I would also argue that in today's world we can indeed be sure with confidence that things that are truly known by science are indeed true. They are not superstitious guesses like draining the blood out of people was.
I wouldn't argue this, to be honest with you. Einstein claimed that the universe was static, neither expanding or contracting. That theory has been shown to be wrong.
In 1988, Fleischman and Pons claimed they had been able to achieve cold fusion. For a while, their theories were accepted... then disproved.
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-famo ... -wrong.php

If your (or the beliefs of another Wicca follower) made statements on the universe based on what Einstein taught or about fusion based on the announcements of Fleischman and Hons, they would be wrong.
Divine Insight wrote: So attempting to pass off all of science as having no more credibility than superstitions of the Middle Ages is, IMHO, dishonest in today's world.
I am not passing off "all of science" as having no more credibility that Middle Ages science. I am stating that like Middle Ages science, it is by no means always correct.
Divine Insight wrote: I also quickly lose respect for people who continually attempt to do this after it has been explained that this is indeed a false claim on their behalf.
My apologies for misunderstanding what you were saying about your faith and misrepresenting your statements.
Whether you respect me or not however is irrelevant to me.

TG123 wrote: So it sounds like you determine your own beliefs.
Divine Insight wrote: Everyone determines their own beliefs. Can you show me an exception to this rule? You'd need to point to someone who has no beliefs of their own but just accepts whatever someone else spoon feeds to them. But even then they are still determining their own beliefs by accepting to be spoon fed by someone else.
OK you have a point. We all determine what to believe. I determined I was going to follow God and go by what is in the Bible.

However, I base my beliefs and my life as much as I can, because like everyone else I go astray at times, on what is in the Bible. This is different from you deciding what mythologies to believe and disbelieve and deciding what is the "moral high ground". I go by what is in the Bible, regardless of whether I personally agree with it always and want to follow it, or not.
TG123 wrote: How do you choose which philosophical concepts to illustrate, and how?
TG123 wrote: I follow what feels right. Since you are a religious person, perhaps you can better understand this if I simply say, "I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me". And the Holy Spirit has guided me to Wicca ultimately.
The Holy Spirit is God, so I don't follow what "feels right" to me, but by what He wants of me. Do you believe that God guided you to Wicca? Can you please elaborate on that?
TG123 wrote: How do you determine what is "moral high ground"?
TG123 wrote: The same way everyone else does. I accept what I believe to be moral based on my deepest spiritual feelings and reject that which does not sit right with me.
No offense to you at all, but various people have various ideas of what "moral high ground" is. To many German young men during the Second World War, taking the moral high ground meant going to the front to defend the Fuhrer. For many others, it meant service in Dachau where they "cleansed" Germany of "untermenschen". To some, taking the moral high ground meant committing suicide after causing perceived or real embarrassment to one's family or country. To some, it means enlisting in a terrorist organization and setting off a bomb in a city to "fight occupation". To others, it means enlisting in a more legal and accepted terrorist organization and dropping bombs on other cities to "defend democracy". For some, taking the moral high ground involved setting witches on fire at the stake, because they believed God wanted them to do this.

I am not saying or even implying you would commit such horrors, but using one's feelings to determine what is right and what is wrong isn't always a good thing.
TG123 wrote: This is how most people determine what is moral. I would suggest that this is true for you as well. Your next question illustrates this point quite nicely.
For me, what is moral is what God expects of Christians. What is immoral is the opposite of that, and things He states are wrong.
TG123 wrote: How do you define morality?
TG123 wrote: Anything that feels right to me. If it doesn't feel right to me, then I deem it to be immoral.
OK, and I respect that. However, it can be a very slippery slope, in my opinion.
TG123 wrote: Think of it this way. Do you agree with the morality taught by Jesus?

If you do, then you are condoning Jesus to be a moral person.

If you don't, then you are either suggesting that Jesus is an immoral person, or you are simply disagreeing with Jesus on what constitutes morality.
I agree with the morality taught by Jesus. But regardless if I agreed or not I would follow Him, because He is God.
TG123 wrote: When I was studying the Bible many years ago in search of truth the first thing that struck me quite profoundly is the following:

As I read through the Bible (from Genesis onward clear up to the New Testament), the ONLY PERSON in the entire canon of stories that I could truly identify with was Jesus.

What does that tell you?

Moreover, when reading the Old Testament I actually disagreed with the things that the Biblical God himself had commanded men to do. And I personally felt that those things were immoral.

And here's the REAL KICKER! What did Jesus have to say about this? Well lo and behold, Jesus himself rejected the very things in the Old Testament that I felt were immoral and replaced them with things that are far more in harmony with what I feel is moral behavior.

So where am I getting my morality from? Clearly not from the Old Testament God as I (and Jesus) are in agreement that the Old Testament God was not a moral God.
Jesus didn't reject anything in the Old Testament. He came to fulfill the Law, and that meant explaining it in full. For example, adultery is punishable by death according to the Old Testament. The punishment still applies. However, only God can judge and condemn people, we can't.

In the Old Testament, God expected His people to do some things which He bans His followers now from doing. We are called to live by what God expects of us now.
TG123 wrote: Am I getting my morality from Jesus? Well, no! I'm simply observing that Jesus actually agrees with my innate morality. So clearly I'm not getting my morality from anywhere but from my deepest innermost self. And Jesus most certainly didn't teach anything that would conflict with my morality.

Also, after rejecting Christianity as being unrealistic I studied Buddhism. What did I find there? The very same morality that Jesus taught! Only it had been taught 500 years before Jesus was ever born.

Clearly this morality did not originate with Jesus, and it had been around innately in many men throughout history. Lao Tzu, Confucius, and many others taught these same moral principles.
Only Jesus also said that He and the Father are one, and that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. He stated He shared glory with the Father from the foundation of the world.

Jesus is God, the other men you listed are not.
TG123 wrote: So I suggest that my morality comes from my very own being. I do not get my morality from religion. I bring my morality to my religion.
Were you always as moral as you are now? Were you born innately with compassion for the unfortunate, and knowing that you should place others above yourself? Did you always know you need to always forgive and love your enemies?
TG123 wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: Because in the end, in Wicca, I am the spiritual essence of the universe. As I also believe to be true of everyone.
So it's not "Wicca" that gives me morality, but the other way around.
Would it be safe to say that Wicca has no influence over how you live your life, morally speaking?
Divine Insight wrote: So in other words, in the form of Wicca that you practice, you are in charge of what you believe, which morals you follow, would that be a correct understanding?
TG123 wrote: Yes, absolutely.

Wicca isn't about teaching people morals. Wicca assumes that you are a moral person to begin with otherwise why would you even be interested in Wicca in the first place?

Wicca is about spiritual growth. It's not about trying to make unruly people behave themselves.
Thank you for your honesty. This is one major reason I would disagree with your belief system. People are not "moral" to begin with. If Hitler joined the Wicca religion in 1941, according to your definition, Wicca would do nothing to convince him or even try to convince him that killing "subhumans" is wrong. He would be getting to decide on his beliefs and morality, which as we know meant people being shoved into ovens... usually after they were dead but not always.

If Hitler was actually a Christian and used the Bible as his guide, he would have recognized that it is wrong to kill anyone... since we are called to love our neighbours and even our enemies. He would not be starving people since Jesus taught that what is done to the hungry is done to Christ Himself. He would not have demanded people follow him and serve him, since Christ taught that leaders as to serve and not be served.

If Hitler was a Christian, he wouldn't have done the horrible things he did. If he was a Wiccan, according to your definition above, your religion wouldn't have made an impact either way.
TG123 wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: I'm not suggesting that Wicca is itself a moral religion. It neither moral not immoral it is amoral. It's just paradigm for organizing a worldview.
So if it is neither moral or immoral, is it a source for good in the world?
TG123 wrote: I wouldn't say that Wicca is a "source" for good in the world. Wicca is just a religion.

YOU are the source of good in the world. (or potentially a source of mayhem).

You can use the paradigm of Wicca to improve your life and improve the lives of those around you. Wicca is nothing on its own. It's just a religion.
That is why I choose Christianity. Because, unlike Wicca, when followed, it IS a source of good in the world.
TG123 wrote: If so, how?
TG123 wrote: Wow. That would require a book to cover in any depth.

Wicca can be used to improve your life and the lives of those around you. But you don't need Wicca. Any positive spiritual philosophy and paradigm will do. The same things can be done using Taoism, or Buddhism, or other non-condemning and non-judgmental religions.
So from what you are saying, Wicca is one of many things that can be used to improve people’s lives. However, this seems dependent on the values of the Wicca practitioners, since you describe it as an amoral religion, right?
Divine Insight wrote: Unfortunately when it comes to jealous-god religions any "goodness" that could be had from those religions becomes totally overshadowed by the arrogance of jealously.
What would you say then about Christians and Muslims and Jews and other monotheists who do plenty of good to other people, like volunteering with MCC or Islamic Aid, whose actions are the result of their faith? Most of the workers treat co-religionists as well as people of other religion with great humanity and compassion. They don’t look down on them for not holding the same beliefs.
Divine Insight wrote: For example, in your previous post, which I quoted at the top of this post you said to me: "I hope you to turn to Christ one day"

This is a Christian obsession with arrogance. If Jesus isn't the egotistical focus of attention and worship Christians become obnoxious. They can't drop it. They can't move forward with anything positive. All they can do is stand around with extreme arrogance acting like as if there is something horrible wrong with everyone who doesn't bow down and worship Jesus as the Lord of Lord and King of Kinds, and also accepts that the entire Christian Bible is the "Word of God".
To be perfectly frank with you TG, that is just plain sick.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with you or that I am a better person than you. I do hope you turn to Christ one day, because He is the only way to salvation. I also turned to Him when I was 17 and after not believing in God. I needed Him then as much as you do now. I still need Him as much as you do and as much as everyone else does. I have many non-Christian friends who will probably sadly not bow down to Jesus until the Day of Judgement. I hope they will get to know Him and be saved, and I hope you do too.

Regardless of whether you take my advice or not, I will not look down on you or hate you or despise you.

As a small aside, speaking of arrogance and acting in an obnoxious matter, I’m not the one who terms your beliefs as “superstition�. I also don’t call your Book of Shadows “utterly wrong and stupid�. I am open about my faith, as you are open with yours. If you find that insulting, that’s too bad.
Divine Insight wrote: Let's get pass the arrogance over worshiping the ego of Jesus and try to move on with some real spiritual development.
Real spiritual development begins with putting one’s faith in Him.
Divine Insight wrote: And this is what Wicca allows us to do. It's not concerned with idolizing the ego of a demigod and using the ego idol as a battering ram to condemn anyone else who isn't worship Jesus as an egotistical King.
Yet in spite of being a Wiccan, you make insulting comments about the beliefs of Christians and Muslims.
Divine Insight wrote: So spiritual religions like Wicca allow us to move past all that bigotry and judgement and get down to the real work of doing the highly moral things that Jesus is actually said to have taught (the very same things that Buddha taught) and clearly NOT the immoral things that had been taught in the Old Testament. Even the Christian Gospels have Jesus himself rejecting those immoral teachings of the Old Testament. Yet ironically they continue to use Jesus as a patsy to hold up the very thing that Jesus himself rejected.
You feel quite content in judging and condemning the Bible and Quran, and God as He is presented in these books.
Jesus did not reject anything from the Old Testament, or call it immoral as you are. He taught people how to pray to God- the same God of the Old Testament you hate and despise.
TG123 wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: You could, in theory, create you own Solitary Wicca that would indeed be immoral by my standards of morality. In fact, many people already do.
How do you define your standards of morality? Does your religion expect others to follow them?
Divine Insight wrote: I've already covered this above. Clearly my moral standards are in line with the moral standards of Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, and just about any respectable religious sage you can point to. I don't bother to define them. They simply are. It's not my purpose to teach you morality. It's up to you to find your own moral center.
Your moral standards aren’t in line with the moral standards of Jesus, since He taught to worship God and you don’t. You agree with some things He taught, but aren’t “aligning� yourself with His teachings.

If it’s up to me to find my moral centre and I choose to find it in National Socialism, would that be alright with Wicca?
Divine Insight wrote: And no, my religion does not "expect" anything from anyone. It's not a bullying religion that is going around passing judgements on everyone. It's not about morality, it's about spirituality.
If it does not expect anything from anyone, then it is one reason why I would reject it. Even this forum’s regulators expect things from us- like being respectful to one another. On this level, the forum’s rules do more good for humanity than your religion.
Divine Insight wrote: It is assumed that if you are interested in spirituality you have already grown to the point where you are morally mature.

Why would an immoral person be interested in spirituality? :-k
Why not? Heinrich Himmler was very much interested in spirituality, and was involved in the occult. It certainly didn’t prevent him from ordering his men to murder men, women and children.

Divine Insight wrote: So Wicca assumes that if you are here (in Wicca) you are here because you are already mature in spiritual morality. Wicca is not a detention center for delinquents who need to be rehabilitated. Hopefully if someone is that far gone there are psychological and medical services that can help those people get back their sanity.
I think the premise that people who are mature in spiritual morality are the ones who are interested in spirituality is false.
Divine Insight wrote: If you know of an insane person I would suggest taking them to the professionals who work on those things. Please don't bring insane people to a Wicca ritual.

Thank you very much.
That’s ok, I wouldn’t. I would welcome him or her to my church, as well as try to get them professional help if that was needed. Our church would welcome him/her with open doors, regardless of how “insane� that person was.
TG123 wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: However, having said that, I would personally suggest that if a person is in violation of the Wicca Rede of harming none, then they are being dishonest when they claim that they are practicing "Wicca".
What does it mean to "harm none"? What if some people have different definitions of what is and is not harmful?
Divine Insight wrote:
This is all part of the human condition, growing up, and becoming mature.

We need to learn this for ourselves. Obviously we can learn from our fellow man. We can read human interest stories and pay attention to what other people consider to be harmful etc., and try to avoid harming people when possible.

Clearly there will always be those difficult gray areas. Is merely being truthful and frank with someone "harming" them if they are emotional upset by truth? These are question we need to ask ourselves and answer for ourselves.

Wicca is about growing in spirit. It's not about becoming instantly perfect.
However, what if society considers something as not harmful that you would? Take for example the mass murder of disabled people in Nazi Germany. It was taught that they not only did not have the right to live, but also that it was the merciful thing to kill them. Would this be wrong, according to Wicca?
Divine Insight wrote: Moreover, turn this back onto Christianity and ask the very same question, you'll have precisely the very same answer.

Jesus taught, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Well, what if I don't like the thing you like? Maybe doing unto me what you would like people to do unto you is something I don't like at all?

Take this to the extreme,.... I see an extremely sexually attractive woman and I would love nothing more than for her to make love to me. Ok, so should I then run up to her and start making love to her?

Clearly, you're going to need to use some personal judgement on how to execute the teachings of Jesus too.

So the issue you bring up here applies to Christianity as well.
If you make love to the woman, you are doing it to her, not her to you. Would you want some random stranger running up to you and making love to you?
Also, making love with the woman, if she was married, would be adultery, something Jesus condemned.
TG123 wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: But as with all religions there are always spoilers out there. There are indeed people who claim to be Wiccans who renounce the Wicca Rede. This would be like Christians who renounce that Jesus was the Christ. All these people are doing is trying to use a popular label that they don't truly agree with.
I can relate to that, there are Christians who claim to be followers of Christ but do not do what He teaches and deny what the Bible teaches about Him.
Divine Insight wrote: Well, not only that but with tens of thousands of disagreeing Christian denominations is it even possible to claim what Jesus even taught? Clearly there is no central consensus on that. Even Catholic Popes have disagreed with each other quite radically over the centuries.
Most of the disagreements aren’t about what Jesus taught or said. His actions and words are recorded pretty clearly in the Bible.
TG123 wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:Do those kinds of claims even make any sense?
Your post makes sense to me, though I hope to gain more understanding of your faith from the questions I posed to you.
Divine Insight wrote:
Well, I hope I was able to explain things to your liking.

The main thing to take away from this is that Wicca is not like Christianity at all.
That is definitely true.
Divine Insight wrote: Christianity is entirely about rules and regulations supposedly made by God that everyone must conform to lest they will face severe consequences. And ironically this even include facing severe consequences if you merely don't believe that Jesus was "The Christ".

Wicca is not about telling anyone what to do or threatening them with punishment if they fail to behave properly. Wicca is a spiritual religion for people who are already mature in morality and are simply interested in becoming more spiritually connected with nature and with each other.

These two religions couldn't be more different.
You do a good job summarizing the beliefs. Just a thing to add: with Christianity, following the rules that God set will ensure we are compassionate and caring people who help others. Wicca doesn’t expect its followers to act either morally or immorally, so a person who joins can either be a kind person or a cruel person and he or she will not be judged or condemned by your religion.
BTW what according to Wicca is a consequence for those who do not follow the rule to “harm none�?
Divine Insight wrote: And Wicca does not even require that you believe in any personified deities at all. You're certainly welcome to do this if that feels right for you, and most Wiccans do appeal to deity archetypes. But you're not going to be condemned by a jealous God if you don't believe in any deities. In fact there are many Wiccans who don't think of a personified God at all. Some of them think more like Taoists. In other words, they think of "god" as being far more mystical than personal. And for this reason some of them prefer to use a lower case "g" or even potentially avoid the term "god" altogether.
So some Wiccans believe in a god, others in gods, others in no deities at all. That is in my opinion really arrogant to God who created us.
Divine Insight wrote: The only final thing I would like to say is that I actually find it a bit insulting when a Christian suggests that I need to "turn to Christ", because that very saying implies that I am currently "turning away" from something, which is absolutely false. I am simply convinced that there is no more credibility to the Hebrew mythology than there is to Greek Mythology, and I'm totally convince that even if Jesus existed at all, he most certainly was not the demigod son of the God of Old Testament sent to be the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of men. So it's not a matter of "turning away" from anything. It's simply a matter of realizing how utterly absurd these stories truly are.
:D :D :)
If you are going to complain about being insulted, I’d suggest not using words like “absurd� and “stupid� to describe religions you disagree with, it makes you come across as hypocritical. You can use these words and even worse ones to describe my beliefs, but I will continue to encourage you to turn to Christ and pray that you do. You don’t accept Who He is or what He did for you, so you don’t know Him. I pray that one day you will.

Have a nice day. :)

TG123
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Post #33

Post by TG123 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
TG123 wrote:
A Troubled Man wrote:
steps wrote: it is the believe of all Muslims .

The mistake would be the misunderstanding by the human himself , but the Quran does not contain one mistake .

Please write your misunderstanding about the Quran .
Some folks have produced a thousand mistakes in the Quran. Good luck with that.

http://1000mistakes.com/
I would personally stay away from sites like these. Many of them have a very shallow understanding of the Quran and hadiths, and some go as far as to misquote them. I visit these sites sometimes, but before taking anything on them seriously, I make sure to verify if they are actually true. If you want to see whether or not Islam is true, read the Quran and hadiths. That in itself should convince you that it isn`t. Don`t rely on what people with a very clear agenda against Islam or any faith or ideology for that matter for information about it, do your own research.
Shallow understanding? Based on what?

Reading the Bible convinces me that it isn't true, either.
Here is an example:

*002 13/3: “And it is He (Allah*) Who spread out the earth, - - -�. Similare things are said several places in the Quran - the earth is flat and spread out. It may be round or roundish, but like a pancake, not like a sphere. That was the geography of the Arabs at the time of Muhammad - though it hardly was the geography of any god. The shape of the Earth is not clearly expressed in the Quran – it was so obvious that it was flat, that it was no reason mentioning it. But each and every thing Earth is compared to, is to something flat – and science is not the slightest in doubt about that Muhammad’s Earth was flat. Muslim scholars tend to avoid the theme or to “explain� it in some way. (There is one translator to English that says “egg-shaped� – but it is a wrong translation (it talks about a nest of the ostrich on the flat ground, and the translator instead has “chosen� to talk about the egg in it). All the same he often is quoted by Muslims – some may honestly want to believe it, others know they are using “al-Taqiyya� – the lawful lie - that is an integrated part of Islam (but of none other of the big religions)). Also see 15/19 – 20/53 – 43/10 – 50/7 – 51/48 – 55/10 – 71/19 - 78/6 - 79/30 – 88/20 -91/6 which all compare Earth to something flat.

Nowhere does the Quran say the earth is flat. The earth we walk on is compared to flat things, which it is. But nowhere is it stated that the earth as a planet is flat. The authors make the assumption that the Quran's author states the earth is flat, but nowhere is it stated. This is faulty and rather pathetic of them.

Feel free to bring up parts of the Bible that make you feel convinced it isn't true, and we can discuss.

A Troubled Man
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Post #34

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
Nowhere does the Quran say the earth is flat. The earth we walk on is compared to flat things, which it is. But nowhere is it stated that the earth as a planet is flat. The authors make the assumption that the Quran's author states the earth is flat, but nowhere is it stated. This is faulty and rather pathetic of them.
Qur'an 2:144
"We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do."


This verse tells all Muslims to pray towards the Ka'aba (qiblah being the direction that one has to face in order to do this). This is only possible on a flat earth model. Due to the sphericity of the earth, a prayer in any direction will point towards the sky/outer-space, not Mecca.

For people who are praying a great distance from Mecca, their qiblah would be somewhere down towards the ground, and the people who are located on the opposite 'side' of the earth would have to pray vertically downward towards the center of the earth.

So, for example, Muslims in the Solomon Islands in fact blaspheme against Allah, because they defecate toward the direction of the Ka'aba when they answer the call of nature.

Even if we were to use the traditional Muslim method of determining qiblah (i.e. a great circle) this would still be blasphemous because you would be simultaneously praying with your face and backside aimed towards the Ka'aba.

In addition to all of the direct evidence we have provided, this is just one of the problems which indirectly indicate that the narrator/writer of the Qur'an believed in a flat earth model. ~ wikiislam

TG123
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Post #35

Post by TG123 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
TG123 wrote:
Nowhere does the Quran say the earth is flat. The earth we walk on is compared to flat things, which it is. But nowhere is it stated that the earth as a planet is flat. The authors make the assumption that the Quran's author states the earth is flat, but nowhere is it stated. This is faulty and rather pathetic of them.
Qur'an 2:144
"We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do."


This verse tells all Muslims to pray towards the Ka'aba (qiblah being the direction that one has to face in order to do this). This is only possible on a flat earth model. Due to the sphericity of the earth, a prayer in any direction will point towards the sky/outer-space, not Mecca.

For people who are praying a great distance from Mecca, their qiblah would be somewhere down towards the ground, and the people who are located on the opposite 'side' of the earth would have to pray vertically downward towards the center of the earth.

So, for example, Muslims in the Solomon Islands in fact blaspheme against Allah, because they defecate toward the direction of the Ka'aba when they answer the call of nature.

Even if we were to use the traditional Muslim method of determining qiblah (i.e. a great circle) this would still be blasphemous because you would be simultaneously praying with your face and backside aimed towards the Ka'aba.

In addition to all of the direct evidence we have provided, this is just one of the problems which indirectly indicate that the narrator/writer of the Qur'an believed in a flat earth model. ~ wikiislam
Do you also believe that countries are incapable of pointing missiles at each other? I mean, given that the earth is a sphere, according to your logic they would either go into outer space or under the ground, eh?

Neither the Quran or hadiths teach the earth is flat. There are quite a few errors in Islam, but this isn't one of them.

A Troubled Man
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Post #36

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
Do you also believe that countries are incapable of pointing missiles at each other? I mean, given that the earth is a sphere, according to your logic they would either go into outer space or under the ground, eh?
Strawman.
Neither the Quran or hadiths teach the earth is flat. There are quite a few errors in Islam, but this isn't one of them.
Yet, I just pointed one out. :)

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Post #37

Post by TG123 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
TG123 wrote:
Do you also believe that countries are incapable of pointing missiles at each other? I mean, given that the earth is a sphere, according to your logic they would either go into outer space or under the ground, eh?
A Troubled Man wrote: Strawman.
If countries can point missiles in the direction of other countries and cities, people can also pray in the direction of a city.
Neither the Quran or hadiths teach the earth is flat. There are quite a few errors in Islam, but this isn't one of them.
A Troubled Man wrote: Yet, I just pointed one out. :)
You didn't, but nice try anyways. :D

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Post #38

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
If countries can point missiles in the direction of other countries and cities, people can also pray in the direction of a city.
:lol: Prayers have on-board guidance systems?

mchristos606
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Re: Question about the Quran

Post #39

Post by mchristos606 »

TG123 wrote: Salaam Alaikum,

This is a question to the Muslim posters on the forum. Can you please tell me what significance the Quran has for you in your faith? I know Islam teaches that God revealed it directly through the ArchAngel Gabriel to Muhammad.

Do you believe that it is 100% true and without any mistakes? I know that the Quran teaches there are no contradictions in it, would the same apply to other kinds of errors (ie scientific, historical, theological, etc)?

4:82
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

If a mistake was found in the Quran that was not a contradiction, would it still be in your opinion the word of God?


Shukran wa Allahma3k. Ramadan Mubarak aydan.

19:20to topSahih InternationalShe said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?

"19:21to topSahih InternationalHe said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "

19:22to topSahih InternationalSo she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place

.19:23to topSahih International[And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten."

19:24to topSahih InternationalBut he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream.

19:25to topSahih InternationalAnd shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.

19:26to topSahih InternationalSo eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.' "

19:27to topSahih InternationalThen she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented

.19:28to topSahih InternationalO sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

19:29to topSahih InternationalSo she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"

19:30to topSahih International [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.


Silly Christians ! We always believed that Christ was born in a manger but Allah says he was born under a PALM TREE !!
And , unlike Muhammad who was ILLITERATE , Christ spoke even BEFORE he was born !! Even in the cradle Christ already knew that he was Allah's servant who will become a prophet !!

Mistakes in the Quran ?? ARE YOU KIDDING ME ???


:D

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Post #40

Post by TG123 »

A Troubled Man wrote:
TG123 wrote:
If countries can point missiles in the direction of other countries and cities, people can also pray in the direction of a city.
:lol: Prayers have on-board guidance systems?
Do you have any evidence that they can or can't reach their targets?

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