Question about the Quran

[TG123]

Salaam Alaikum,

This is a question to the Muslim posters on the forum. Can you please tell me what significance the Quran has for you in your faith? I know Islam teaches that God revealed it directly through the ArchAngel Gabriel to Muhammad.

Do you believe that it is 100% true and without any mistakes? I know that the Quran teaches there are no contradictions in it, would the same apply to other kinds of errors (ie scientific, historical, theological, etc)?

4:82
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

If a mistake was found in the Quran that was not a contradiction, would it still be in your opinion the word of God?


Shukran wa Allahma3k. Ramadan Mubarak aydan.

[A Troubled Man]

There are a differences between the threatening and warning
Threatening is the result of enmity .
And warning is the result of caring and safety .

I'm going to out on a limb here and assume that English is your second language. For many of us, it is our first language and we do understand the difference between the definitions of warning and threat, whereas it is obvious you don't.

When you drive your car , you will see traffic signs . for examples : the schools signs.

Are these signs for warnings or for threatening ?

And where they place them ? before you reach the school or after you pass the school ?

And to Allah the high example :
He told us our road and our journey will end to him .And he placed for us the signs [ warnings ] before we end our journey .

do you understand , or your mind still locked ?

Those are obviously warning signs telling us to be careful not to run over any small children crossing the street. There are no threats of eternal punishment in hellfire if we don't praise and worship someone.

Do you understand?

[steps]

And to Allah the high example :
He told us our road and our journey will end to him .And he placed for us the signs [ warnings ] before we end our journey .

do you understand , or your mind still locked ?

Clearly it's you who doesn't understand the difference between threats and warnings.

If someone threatens to beat you to a pulp if you don't do as they say that's a threat.

If someone threatens to cast you into a fiery furnace like Adolph Hitler did to people, that's also a threat.

It's not like there's a fiery furnace that just happens to exist that you need to be warned about. It's crystal clear that Allah is the hateful and hideous God who created that furnace specifically as a threat to anyone who refuses to obey his immoral commandments.

Therefore Allah is a hateful evil mythological God who uses threats to try to get people to believe in him. (although clearly there is no actual God associated with these myths, this is just an immoral brainwashing tactic of the devious men who wrote the Qur'an)

This would be like a man threatening to beat his wife if she didn't love and obey him. Of course, in Islam that might be considered acceptable behavior too. But if it is, then Islam does not know the difference between threats and warnings and also supports hatred and wife battering in the name of Allah. All the more reason for people to speak out against Islam even if they aren't interested in religion at all. They may still have an interest in trying to protect women from being beaten by men who might believe in Allah.

So it's not only an immoral religion in general, but it can be dangerous and harmful to other people as well.

It's simply inhumane even from a purely secular point of view.

How you can try to pass such evil myths off as a religion is beyond me.

And do you see yourself living under the threatening from Allah or under the favors from Allah ?

[4. He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!] Surah 16

when you were inside the womb of your mother Allah the most merciful provided for you the food ,. does he deserve your thanks ? were you during this weakness under his threatening or under his favors ?

then after your birth , you were piece of meat , so he sent down inside your parent hearts the love and the compassion for you . were you during this weakness under his threatening or under his mercilessness and by his favors ?

then he guided you to your mother's breast to feed you the milk . no factory in the world can produce milk like it . were you during this weakness under his threatening or under his mercilessness and by favors ?

and he gave you the ability to see and to hear and the ability to walk and talk. were you during this weakness under his threatening or under his mercifulness and by his favors ?

No person will be able to count the favors of Allah on him .

Allah says : [4. He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!5. And cattle He has created for you (men): from them ye derive warmth, and numerous benefits, and of their (meat) ye eat.6. And ye have a sense of pride and beauty in them as ye drive them home in the evening, and as ye lead them forth to pasture in the morning.7. And they carry your heavy loads to lands that ye could not (otherwise) reach except with souls distressed: for your Lord is indeed Most Kind, Most Merciful,8. And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride and use for show; and He has created (other) things of which ye have no knowledge.9. And unto Allah leads straight the Way, but there are ways that turn aside: if Allah had willed, He could have guided all of you.10. It is He who sends down rain from the sky: from it ye drink, and out of it (grows) the vegetation on which ye feed your cattle.11. With it He produces for you corn, olives, date-palms, grapes and every kind of fruit: verily in this is a sign for those who give thought.12. He has made subject to you the Night and the Day; the sun and the moon; and the stars are in subjection by His Command: verily in this are Signs for men who are wise.13. And the things on this earth which He has multiplied in varying colours (and qualities): verily in this is a sign for men who celebrate the praises of Allah (in gratitude).14. It is He Who has made the sea subject, that ye may eat thereof flesh that is fresh and tender, and that ye may extract therefrom ornaments to wear; and thou seest the ships therein that plough the waves, that ye may seek (thus) of the bounty of Allah and that ye may be grateful.15. And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;16. And marks and sign-posts; and by the stars (men) guide themselves.17. Is then He Who creates like one that creates not? Will ye not receive admonition?18. If ye would count up the favours of Allah, never would ye be able to number them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.]

Are you under the threatening of Allah or under his favors ?

Let us complete :

62. They attribute to Allah what they hate (for themselves), and their tongues assert the falsehood that all good things are for themselves: without doubt for them is the Fire, and they will be the first to be hastened on into it!

63. By Allah, We (also) sent (Our apostles) to Peoples before thee; but Satan made, (to the wicked), their own acts seem alluring: He is also their patron today, but they shall have a most grievous penalty.
64. And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.
65. And Allah sends down rain from the skies, and gives therewith life to the earth after its death: verily in this is a Sign for those who listen.
66. And verily in cattle (too) will ye find an instructive sign. From what is within their bodies between excretions and blood, We produce, for your drink, milk, pure and agreeable to those who drink it.
67. And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.
68. And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in (men's) habitations;
69. Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.
70. It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much): for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful.
71. Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favoured are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess, so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favours of Allah.
72. And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best: will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah.s favours?-
73. And worship others than Allah,- such as have no power of providing them, for sustenance, with anything in heavens or earth, and cannot possibly have such power?
74. Invent not similitudes for Allah. for Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

[147. What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe? Nay, it is Allah that recogniseth (all good), and knoweth all things. ] Surah 4


After that : the humble person who will be thankful for Allah the main source of All favors , and the arrogant person who denies all the favors of Allah .
And Allah will reward the humble and arrogance according to their reactions toward these favors .

[A Troubled Man]

And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you

Looks like Allah has never heard of plate tectonics.

They attribute to Allah what they hate (for themselves), and their tongues assert the falsehood that all good things are for themselves: without doubt for them is the Fire, and they will be the first to be hastened on into it!

...they shall have a most grievous penalty.

What can Allah gain by your punishment...

Again, your hate speech towards us is loud and clear, we fully understand you'll be very happy to see us roast in hell. That is why we reject your religion as hate speech.

[TG123]

I am very sure that you read these verses and you understood them before asking me , and you know that I am keeping info about this subject for you .

There is huge differences between someone asks about Islam and someone tries to attack Islam.

As an unbiased by-stander in this debate I don't see where you have address TG123's observations.

TG123 spoke of actual tombs that had been built with inscriptions on them and were even built at a much later date that the event spoken of in the Qur'an.

To steps,

You claim that their homes became their tombs due to a blast that killed these people. But a blast that kills people doesn't build stone monuments and inscribe them.

So your apologetic argument doesn't hold water, IMHO.

So thus far I see TG123's claims haven't truly been addressed at all. You have simply side-stepped them by trying to pretend that these people were killed in their homes so that they home metaphorically became tombs.

But a metaphorical apologetic argument won't work here. You need to explain how actual stone tombs go there and were inscribed. And how this happened centuries after the original event supposedly even happened.

So thus far I see no viable answers in your apologetic argument that actually addresses TG's observations.

Hi Divine Insight,

I appreciate your post and observations regarding this issue, as well as your impartiality in this issue. We have some pretty strong disagreements, and will probably continue to have them in the future... of course I hope you to turn to Christ one day, but until that day comes, I will gladly and lovingly keep arguing with you and trying to convince you to come to Him

I have a lot of appreciation as well for your honesty and outspokenness.

Take care.

[TG123]

Hi Divine Insight,

Before going any further, I would like to state I strongly respect your honesty.

What makes you believe that a worldview that does not require any Holy Books would be a positive thing?

Well, it's certainly a positive thing in terms of allowing the worldview to expand and evolve to include new information as it becomes available.

What makes you think that a worldview with Holy Books is incapable of expanding and evolving, or that one without them is not?

As a Christian, I am willing to learn about other faiths and views of people with no faith. I have read the Quran and am working through the hadiths. I have read "God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens, and watched "Religulous".

I have found these non-Christian books and movie to be interesting, I learned some new things. I agree with some of what is in the Quran and hadiths and even Hitchens' and Maher's material, I disagree with other things, and I have no opinion on some.

I am firmly set in the Christian faith, but that does not mean I am unwilling to read non-Christian sources or include some information from them in my worldview.

For example, I embrace Solitary Eclectic Wicca (which is popularly viewed as a religion). Yet it is flexible enough to include just about any philosophical world view, even atheistic world views depending on how a person defines atheism.

It's impossible to prove my Solitary Eclectic Wicca to be false. Everything in my spiritual paradigm is totally compatible with all known science. So it's not in conflict with science (no war going on there).

But science changes. In Nazi Germany, 'science' was used to determine that the Aryan race was superior to all other races, and that the Jews, Slavs, Roma etc were inferior. In the Middle Ages, 'known science' would mean doctors would bleed a lot of their patients to death as they tried to cure them. Now we know this is not how medicine works.

So if your belief is based on known science, it would mean that at times it is dangerously wrong.

It also doesn't require or demand a belief in any strict mythologies. I do appeal to some mythologies selectively to illustrate various philosophical concepts. But I fully confess that those mythologies are only embraced as pure metaphors. I even confess that they are subjectively selected by me personally. And I purposefully select mythologies that illustrate what I consider to be high moral ground.

So it sounds like you determine your own beliefs. How do you choose which philosophical concepts to illustrate, and how? How do you determine what is "moral high ground"?
How do you define morality?

Because in the end, in Wicca, I am the spiritual essence of the universe. As I also believe to be true of everyone.

So it's not "Wicca" that gives me morality, but the other way around.

So in other words, in the form of Wicca that you practice, you are in charge of what you believe, which morals you follow, would that be a correct understanding?

I'm not suggesting that Wicca is itself a moral religion. It neither moral not immoral it is amoral. It's just paradigm for organizing a worldview.

So if it is neither moral or immoral, is it a source for good in the world? If so, how? If not, what is its relevance?

You could, in theory, create you own Solitary Wicca that would indeed be immoral by my standards of morality. In fact, many people already do.

How do you define your standards of morality? Does your religion expect others to follow them?

However, having said that, I would personally suggest that if a person is in violation of the Wicca Rede of harming none, then they are being dishonest when they claim that they are practicing "Wicca".

What does it mean to "harm none"? What if some people have different definitions of what is and is not harmful?

But as with all religions there are always spoilers out there. There are indeed people who claim to be Wiccans who renounce the Wicca Rede. This would be like Christians who renounce that Jesus was the Christ. All these people are doing is trying to use a popular label that they don't truly agree with.

I can relate to that, there are Christians who claim to be followers of Christ but do not do what He teaches and deny what the Bible teaches about Him.

Do those kinds of claims even make any sense?

Your post makes sense to me, though I hope to gain more understanding of your faith from the questions I posed to you.

[TG123]

What makes you believe that a worldview that does not require any Holy Books would be a positive thing?

The "worldview" can then turn to reason, rationale and logic rather than myth and superstition.

Of course, some find it very hard to think, often a result of religious indoctrination, so they refuse to try and turn to false answers and hopes from ancient mythologies because they believe those guys were really, really, really wise.

What makes you believe that "reason, rationale and logic" instead of "myth and superstition" are positive things?

How do you define either category?

[TG123]

Well , our new friend TG123 posted the same subject at this forum
http://www.christianforums.com/t7719867-4/#post62413572

Assalamu Alaikum, steps. Thanks for calling me your friend, it means a lot to me. I did post the same subject on Christian Forums, and also on Islamicity- however on that forum my thread was not published for some reason. I also posted it in an MS Word debate I am having with a Muslim friend.

I debate with Muslims and other non-Christians online, and to avoid confusion I use the same user name so if people want to find my posts they can do so.

but insha'a Allah it will end here :

it seems to me , that you are an expert about the Islamic faith . and being an expert is not a good thing because Allah set forth an example for a person knew the signs of Allah but this person insisted to follow his desires in the holy Quran :

7. The Heights [175. Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray. ] .


---------------------------

Thanks for calling me "an expert", but you are being too generous. I have read the Quran once and am reading through the hadiths. I am no expert on Islam, though. I am trying to learn more about it, only so I can understand it better. What I know already shows me it is not from God. I hope to discuss Islam with Muslims and show you also that God is not its creator, and encourage you to come to Him as He reveals Himself through Jesus Christ.

In the same Surah 11 Hud

[65. But they did ham-string her. So he said: "Enjoy yourselves in your homes for three days: (Then will be your ruin): (Behold) there a promise not to be belied!" ]

prophet Sahilh peace be upon him gave them a sign before the punishment of Allah : the first day their skin colors will change to yellow , and in the 2nd day it will change to red , and the 3rd day it will become black .

so when they saw the signs achieved they embalmed themselves waiting for the punishment for their evil deeds .

the holy Quran is wonderful , it explain the situation in one verse or in one word :
[67. The (mighty) Blast overtook the wrong-doers, and they lay prostrate in their homes before the morning,-]

In their homes : their homes became their tombs .

-----------------------------------

Great, I read that part too.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293

The Archaeological Site of Al-Hijr (Madâin Sâlih) is the first World Heritage property to be inscribed in Saudi Arabia. Formerly known as Hegra it is the largest conserved site of the civilization of the Nabataeans south of Petra in Jordan. It features well-preserved monumental tombs with decorated facades dating from the 1st century BC to the 1st century AD. The site also features some 50 inscriptions of the pre-Nabataean period and some cave drawings. Al-Hijr bears a unique testimony to Nabataean civilization. With its 111 monumental tombs, 94 of which are decorated, and water wells, the site is an outstanding example of the Nabataeans’ architectural accomplishment and hydraulic expertise.

Also the people of prophet Shu'aib faced the same destiny [ their homes became their tombs ] , and they lived near the destroyed people of Thamud and after their era

[ 36. To the Madyan (people) (We sent) their brother Shu'aib. Then he said: "O my people! serve Allah, and fear the Last Day: nor commit evil on the earth, with intent to do mischief."37. But they rejected him: Then the mighty Blast seized them, and they lay prostrate in their homes by the morning.] Surah 29


They holy Quran gives us a great connection between the two neighbouring nations lived in different eras [ 95. As if they had never dwelt and flourished there! Ah! Behold! How the Madyan were removed (from sight) as were removed the Thamud!]Surah 11

-----------------------------------

I am very sure that you read these verses and you understood them before asking me , and you know that I am keeping info about this subject for you .

You did a great job summarizing what the Quran teaches. It states that the Thamud hewed the houses out of rock, and that God buried them. Then the Midianites committed the same mistake. The verses do not state they lived near the Thamud, in a different era, though. Otherwise, your analysis is correct.

What you didn't do is explain why the "homes" that Muhammad and his men came across (and were described in the Quran) were built not by the Thamud before Moses, but by the Nabataeans almost a milennium later.

The sentence that you bolded from the UNESCO link that I posted states that the site features 50 inscriptions from the pre-Nabataean era. However, it states that the tombs themselves were built by the Nabataeans.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293

The Archaeological Site of Al-Hijr (Madâin Sâlih) is the first World Heritage property to be inscribed in Saudi Arabia. Formerly known as Hegra it is the largest conserved site of the civilization of the Nabataeans south of Petra in Jordan. It features well-preserved monumental tombs with decorated facades dating from the 1st century BC to the 1st century AD. The site also features some 50 inscriptions of the pre-Nabataean period and some cave drawings. Al-Hijr bears a unique testimony to Nabataean civilization. With its 111 monumental tombs, 94 of which are decorated, and water wells, the site is an outstanding example of the Nabataeans’ architectural accomplishment and hydraulic expertise.

As we can see, the iscriptions were made prior to the Nabataeans settling in that area, but the tombs were built by the Nabataeans. Muhammad claimed he and his men rode by homes of the Thamud, not their inscriptions. The Quran claims that the Thamud hewed homes out of rocks in the time of Salih... not that they made inscriptions.

Also, notice that the water wells were also built by the Nabataeans, and are an example of their "hydraulic expertise". The well that that Muhammad had his men drink from that the She-camel allegedly drank from, were built also by the Nabataeans, who lived more than 1,000 years after the events described in the Quran regarding Salih and the Thamud took place.

There is huge differences between someone asks about Islam and someone tries to attack Islam.

In my intro post to the Islam forum, I stated that I come to debate as well as discuss.

Assalamu Alaikum to the Muslim posters, may peace be with you.

I wanted to say hi, I am a new member on this forum and I am an evangelical Christian. I enjoy interfaith discussion and debate with Muslims, and would love to talk to you about my beliefs and hear you talk about yours, and debate.

I hope Ramadan is going well for you this year, is Eid next week?

Please feel free to ask and challenge and bring up any questions or issues you would like to about Christianity. I look forward to talking with you, may God lead us to the Truth.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=23444

May God lead us to the Truth about Who He is. Allahma3k. Blessed be His Name.

[Divine Insight]

I hope you to turn to Christ one day

The problem here is that you are totally not even understanding my position. It's impossible for me to "turn to Christ". I already agree with the morality attributed to Jesus. Therefore I am already in agreement with Jesus on moral issues. The only way for me to "turn to Christ" would be for Jesus to actually become the Christ. But that would be totally beyond my ability to control, unless of course you believe that I am God.

Before going any further, I would like to state I strongly respect your honesty.

Thank you for recognizing that I am indeed being open and honest. That is indeed a correct observation.

What makes you think that a worldview with Holy Books is incapable of expanding and evolving, or that one without them is not?

It's not just "Holy Books". After all, in Wicca a Book of Shadows is considered to be a "Holy Book" by many Wiccans. It's certainly their own personal Holy Book. But they don't claim it to be the "Word of God". On the contrary it is a journal of their very own thoughts and beliefs. It is also malleable and evolves as they evolve and grow through their life's experience. I personally like to rewrite my Book of Shadows almost annually. Although what I most frequently do is just add to it and modify what was previously there to include how I have grown in spirituality.

As a Christian, I am willing to learn about other faiths and views of people with no faith. I have read the Quran and am working through the hadiths. I have read "God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens, and watched "Religulous".

I have found these non-Christian books and movie to be interesting, I learned some new things. I agree with some of what is in the Quran and hadiths and even Hitchens' and Maher's material, I disagree with other things, and I have no opinion on some.

I am firmly set in the Christian faith, but that does not mean I am unwilling to read non-Christian sources or include some information from them in my worldview.

But that's just the point isn't it? Is the Bible your "Holy Book" or not?

If it is, then the Bible is basically carved in stone for all intents and purposes. I mean, you can't go back and decided that there was never a fall from grace, or that Jesus isn't the sacrificial lamb of God, etc. You are not free to re-write the Bible. In this sense your spiritual belief must necessarily remain as static as the Bible as long as you continue to view the Bible as being the "Holy Word of God".

So it is in this sense that you are unable to evolve Christianity beyond that.

But science changes. In Nazi Germany, 'science' was used to determine that the Aryan race was superior to all other races, and that the Jews, Slavs, Roma etc were inferior.

I disagree with some of your views on "science" here. To begin with the idea that German "scientists" had used science to determine a superior race is highly questionable. What that truly objective science? Or was it just a subjective misuse of an otherwise objective methodology?

As someone who believes in Christianity look at it this way; Were the people who burned midwives at the stake alive as witches in the name of Christianity truly practicing Christianity?

Just because someone does something in the name of some institution, belief system, or philosophy, does not mean that the underlying intuition is at fault.

I would hold this to be true of the Nazi's misuse of "science" as well. They simply did not have enough genuine information to objectively support their conclusions. They were clearly using "science" as a scapegoat for their own personal subjective bigotries. This may have even been caused by Hitler's request that they produce such evidence lest they face dire consequences as well.

In the Middle Ages, 'known science' would mean doctors would bleed a lot of their patients to death as they tried to cure them. Now we know this is not how medicine works.

There was not modern "Science" in the Middle Ages. The middle ages was based far more on guesses and superstitions. The "scientific method" that we use today wasn't even truly established until men like Galileo came along, and Isaac Newton truly refined the methods of science.

So to even speak of "Middle Age Science" is actually a misnomer and a false representation of "modern science".

So if your belief is based on known science, it would mean that at times it is dangerously wrong.

My belief system is not based on science. It's simply not in conflict with any known science. I would also argue that in today's world we can indeed be sure with confidence that things that are truly known by science are indeed true. They are not superstitious guesses like draining the blood out of people was.

So attempting to pass off all of science as having no more credibility than superstitions of the Middle Ages is, IMHO, dishonest in today's world.

I also quickly lose respect for people who continually attempt to do this after it has been explained that this is indeed a false claim on their behalf.

So it sounds like you determine your own beliefs.

Everyone determines their own beliefs. Can you show me an exception to this rule? You'd need to point to someone who has no beliefs of their own but just accepts whatever someone else spoon feeds to them. But even then they are still determining their own beliefs by accepting to be spoon fed by someone else.

How do you choose which philosophical concepts to illustrate, and how?

I follow what feels right. Since you are a religious person, perhaps you can better understand this if I simply say, "I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me". And the Holy Spirit has guided me to Wicca ultimately.

How do you determine what is "moral high ground"?

The same way everyone else does. I accept what I believe to be moral based on my deepest spiritual feelings and reject that which does not sit right with me.

This is how most people determine what is moral. I would suggest that this is true for you as well. Your next question illustrates this point quite nicely.

How do you define morality?

Anything that feels right to me. If it doesn't feel right to me, then I deem it to be immoral.

Think of it this way. Do you agree with the morality taught by Jesus?

If you do, then you are condoning Jesus to be a moral person.

If you don't, then you are either suggesting that Jesus is an immoral person, or you are simply disagreeing with Jesus on what constitutes morality.

When I was studying the Bible many years ago in search of truth the first thing that struck me quite profoundly is the following:

As I read through the Bible (from Genesis onward clear up to the New Testament), the ONLY PERSON in the entire canon of stories that I could truly identify with was Jesus.

What does that tell you?

Moreover, when reading the Old Testament I actually disagreed with the things that the Biblical God himself had commanded men to do. And I personally felt that those things were immoral.

And here's the REAL KICKER! What did Jesus have to say about this? Well lo and behold, Jesus himself rejected the very things in the Old Testament that I felt were immoral and replaced them with things that are far more in harmony with what I feel is moral behavior.

So where am I getting my morality from? Clearly not from the Old Testament God as I (and Jesus) are in agreement that the Old Testament God was not a moral God.

Am I getting my morality from Jesus? Well, no! I'm simply observing that Jesus actually agrees with my innate morality. So clearly I'm not getting my morality from anywhere but from my deepest innermost self. And Jesus most certainly didn't teach anything that would conflict with my morality.

Also, after rejecting Christianity as being unrealistic I studied Buddhism. What did I find there? The very same morality that Jesus taught! Only it had been taught 500 years before Jesus was ever born.

Clearly this morality did not originate with Jesus, and it had been around innately in many men throughout history. Lao Tzu, Confucius, and many others taught these same moral principles.

So I suggest that my morality comes from my very own being. I do not get my morality from religion. I bring my morality to my religion.

Because in the end, in Wicca, I am the spiritual essence of the universe. As I also believe to be true of everyone.

So it's not "Wicca" that gives me morality, but the other way around.

So in other words, in the form of Wicca that you practice, you are in charge of what you believe, which morals you follow, would that be a correct understanding?

Yes, absolutely.

Wicca isn't about teaching people morals. Wicca assumes that you are a moral person to begin with otherwise why would you even be interested in Wicca in the first place?

Wicca is about spiritual growth. It's not about trying to make unruly people behave themselves.

I'm not suggesting that Wicca is itself a moral religion. It neither moral not immoral it is amoral. It's just paradigm for organizing a worldview.

So if it is neither moral or immoral, is it a source for good in the world?

I wouldn't say that Wicca is a "source" for good in the world. Wicca is just a religion.

YOU are the source of good in the world. (or potentially a source of mayhem).

You can use the paradigm of Wicca to improve your life and improve the lives of those around you. Wicca is nothing on its own. It's just a religion.

If so, how?

Wow. That would require a book to cover in any depth.

Wicca can be used to improve your life and the lives of those around you. But you don't need Wicca. Any positive spiritual philosophy and paradigm will do. The same things can be done using Taoism, or Buddhism, or other non-condemning and non-judgmental religions.

Unfortunately when it comes to jealous-god religions any "goodness" that could be had from those religions becomes totally overshadowed by the arrogance of jealously.

For example, in your previous post, which I quoted at the top of this post you said to me: "I hope you to turn to Christ one day"

This is a Christian obsession with arrogance. If Jesus isn't the egotistical focus of attention and worship Christians become obnoxious. They can't drop it. They can't move forward with anything positive. All they can do is stand around with extreme arrogance acting like as if there is something horrible wrong with everyone who doesn't bow down and worship Jesus as the Lord of Lord and King of Kinds, and also accepts that the entire Christian Bible is the "Word of God".

To be perfectly frank with you TG, that is just plain sick.

Let's get pass the arrogance over worshiping the ego of Jesus and try to move on with some real spiritual development.

And this is what Wicca allows us to do. It's not concerned with idolizing the ego of a demigod and using the ego idol as a battering ram to condemn anyone else who isn't worship Jesus as an egotistical King.

So spiritual religions like Wicca allow us to move past all that bigotry and judgement and get down to the real work of doing the highly moral things that Jesus is actually said to have taught (the very same things that Buddha taught) and clearly NOT the immoral things that had been taught in the Old Testament. Even the Christian Gospels have Jesus himself rejecting those immoral teachings of the Old Testament. Yet ironically they continue to use Jesus as a patsy to hold up the very thing that Jesus himself rejected.

You could, in theory, create you own Solitary Wicca that would indeed be immoral by my standards of morality. In fact, many people already do.

How do you define your standards of morality? Does your religion expect others to follow them?

I've already covered this above. Clearly my moral standards are in line with the moral standards of Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, and just about any respectable religious sage you can point to. I don't bother to define them. They simply are. It's not my purpose to teach you morality. It's up to you to find your own moral center.

And no, my religion does not "expect" anything from anyone. It's not a bullying religion that is going around passing judgements on everyone. It's not about morality, it's about spirituality.

It is assumed that if you are interested in spirituality you have already grown to the point where you are morally mature.

Why would an immoral person be interested in spirituality?

So Wicca assumes that if you are here (in Wicca) you are here because you are already mature in spiritual morality. Wicca is not a detention center for delinquents who need to be rehabilitated. Hopefully if someone is that far gone there are psychological and medical services that can help those people get back their sanity.

If you know of an insane person I would suggest taking them to the professionals who work on those things. Please don't bring insane people to a Wicca ritual.

Thank you very much.

However, having said that, I would personally suggest that if a person is in violation of the Wicca Rede of harming none, then they are being dishonest when they claim that they are practicing "Wicca".

What does it mean to "harm none"? What if some people have different definitions of what is and is not harmful?

This is all part of the human condition, growing up, and becoming mature.

We need to learn this for ourselves. Obviously we can learn from our fellow man. We can read human interest stories and pay attention to what other people consider to be harmful etc., and try to avoid harming people when possible.

Clearly there will always be those difficult gray areas. Is merely being truthful and frank with someone "harming" them if they are emotional upset by truth? These are question we need to ask ourselves and answer for ourselves.

Wicca is about growing in spirit. It's not about becoming instantly perfect.

Moreover, turn this back onto Christianity and ask the very same question, you'll have precisely the very same answer.

Jesus taught, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Well, what if I don't like the thing you like? Maybe doing unto me what you would like people to do unto you is something I don't like at all?

Take this to the extreme,.... I see an extremely sexually attractive woman and I would love nothing more than for her to make love to me. Ok, so should I then run up to her and start making love to her?

Clearly, you're going to need to use some personal judgement on how to execute the teachings of Jesus too.

So the issue you bring up here applies to Christianity as well.

But as with all religions there are always spoilers out there. There are indeed people who claim to be Wiccans who renounce the Wicca Rede. This would be like Christians who renounce that Jesus was the Christ. All these people are doing is trying to use a popular label that they don't truly agree with.

I can relate to that, there are Christians who claim to be followers of Christ but do not do what He teaches and deny what the Bible teaches about Him.

Well, not only that but with tens of thousands of disagreeing Christian denominations is it even possible to claim what Jesus even taught? Clearly there is no central consensus on that. Even Catholic Popes have disagreed with each other quite radically over the centuries.

Do those kinds of claims even make any sense?

Your post makes sense to me, though I hope to gain more understanding of your faith from the questions I posed to you.

Well, I hope I was able to explain things to your liking.

The main thing to take away from this is that Wicca is not like Christianity at all.

Christianity is entirely about rules and regulations supposedly made by God that everyone must conform to lest they will face severe consequences. And ironically this even include facing severe consequences if you merely don't believe that Jesus was "The Christ".

Wicca is not about telling anyone what to do or threatening them with punishment if they fail to behave properly. Wicca is a spiritual religion for people who are already mature in morality and are simply interested in becoming more spiritually connected with nature and with each other.

These two religions couldn't be more different.

And Wicca does not even require that you believe in any personified deities at all. You're certainly welcome to do this if that feels right for you, and most Wiccans do appeal to deity archetypes. But you're not going to be condemned by a jealous God if you don't believe in any deities. In fact there are many Wiccans who don't think of a personified God at all. Some of them think more like Taoists. In other words, they think of "god" as being far more mystical than personal. And for this reason some of them prefer to use a lower case "g" or even potentially avoid the term "god" altogether.

~~~~

The only final thing I would like to say is that I actually find it a bit insulting when a Christian suggests that I need to "turn to Christ", because that very saying implies that I am currently "turning away" from something, which is absolutely false. I am simply convinced that there is no more credibility to the Hebrew mythology than there is to Greek Mythology, and I'm totally convince that even if Jesus existed at all, he most certainly was not the demigod son of the God of Old Testament sent to be the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of men. So it's not a matter of "turning away" from anything. It's simply a matter of realizing how utterly absurd these stories truly are.

[TG123]

it is the believe of all Muslims .

The mistake would be the misunderstanding by the human himself , but the Quran does not contain one mistake .

Please write your misunderstanding about the Quran .

Some folks have produced a thousand mistakes in the Quran. Good luck with that.

http://1000mistakes.com/

I would personally stay away from sites like these. Many of them have a very shallow understanding of the Quran and hadiths, and some go as far as to misquote them. I visit these sites sometimes, but before taking anything on them seriously, I make sure to verify if they are actually true. If you want to see whether or not Islam is true, read the Quran and hadiths. That in itself should convince you that it isn`t. Don`t rely on what people with a very clear agenda against Islam or any faith or ideology for that matter for information about it, do your own research.

[A Troubled Man]

What makes you believe that "reason, rationale and logic" instead of "myth and superstition" are positive things?

The results of both in societies, of course. Myth and superstitions have only led to conflict and wars.

How do you define either category?

One is tangible while the other is not.