I have heard that Islam accepts aspects of evolution
but I imagine this is another 'smoke and mirrors'
argument to try and satisfy both science and the religion.
Is the evolution taught in Islam as wacky as that assumed in Christianity/Bible science?
Islam & Evolution.
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Rev. Hydrogen
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Post #2
Before we begin our talk about evolution and Islam .
I want you to prove your belief about chance :
1- Prove that chance was the reason of the big bang .
2- Prove that chance was the reason of the physical rules and conditions
3- Prove that chance was was the reason of the chemical elements in nature .
4- Prove how the chance was the reason of the most important compound water ? observe that Hydrogen and Oxygen are ignitable elements . how the chance did it ? . and how the chance made many complicated chemical compounds on earth before the beginning of life ?
5- Prove that chance established the different biological environments .
6- Prove that chance established the first cell .
The atheistic evolution theory is not acceptable until the atheists prove the multiple chances before the beginning of life .
I want you to prove your belief about chance :
1- Prove that chance was the reason of the big bang .
2- Prove that chance was the reason of the physical rules and conditions
3- Prove that chance was was the reason of the chemical elements in nature .
4- Prove how the chance was the reason of the most important compound water ? observe that Hydrogen and Oxygen are ignitable elements . how the chance did it ? . and how the chance made many complicated chemical compounds on earth before the beginning of life ?
5- Prove that chance established the different biological environments .
6- Prove that chance established the first cell .
The atheistic evolution theory is not acceptable until the atheists prove the multiple chances before the beginning of life .
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Rev. Hydrogen
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Post #3
steps wrote:
Thanks for the reply, my answers below:
Before we begin our talk about evolution and Islam .
I want you to prove your belief about chance :
1- Prove that chance was the reason of the big bang .
Rev. BTW, I am not an atheist,
Anything pre big bang Ie pre Plank 'time'
-those few milliseconds after the big bang is
a no go idea for science and is truthfully
noted as an unknown. Science then does not
imagine anything about events before the BB.
2- Prove that chance was the reason of the physical rules and conditions
Rev.
Chance has nothing to do with the rules and conditions.
aside from the fact that they are the reason for things.
That is unless the physical and quantum constants etc. were 'as they
are', nothing could really be as we know it.
3. Prove that chance was was the reason of the chemical elements in
nature.
4- Prove how the chance was the reason of the most important compound water ? observe that Hydrogen and Oxygen are ignitable elements . how the chance did it ? . and how the chance made many complicated chemical compounds on earth before the beginning of life ?
5- Prove that chance established the different biological environments .
6- Prove that chance established the first cell .
The atheistic evolution theory is not acceptable until the atheists prove the multiple chances before the beginning of life .
Questions 3,4,5,6, are all Q's for an Atheists to ponder and very relevant.
As mentioned I am no atheist. In a nutshell I do not believe they could all happen without the sentience
of molecules all the way down to the electrons and leptons where form dissolves into energy. This is panpsychism.
However I will say that the conditions for organismic evolution of life on earth were met at the time of the big bang and given sentience as above,
it was only a matter of time. The BB imparted firstly a separation of nothing into 2 charges - Matter and Antimatter, stored in mostly in black holes. The matter was separated further into charge of minus and negative
as we know about in chemistry and physics. The final part of the equation
needed was angular momentum. Everything vibrates and the galaxies spin in counter rotation so it all adds up to zero.
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Post #4
There is nothing between the truth and the lie except the lie .
We believe that human evolved during [ the stages of embryo ] . also the creation of Adam passed several stages . but all of them were the stages of human creation only . by Allah's will and according to his absolute ability
The atheistic evolution theory has no place in Islam
One of the major issues in The holy Quran [ the issue of creation ]
Therefore Allah challenged the mankind with their different beliefs [ Jesus , Chance , evolution , natural selection , …………………………… ] to break this fact
[73. O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!74. No just estimate have they made of Allah. for Allah is He Who is strong and able to Carry out His Will. ] Surah 22
And they will never prove the opposite . therefore Allah made the challenge easier on them :
[4. Say: "Do ye see what it is ye invoke besides Allah. Show me what it is they have created on earth, or have they a share in the heavens bring me a book (revealed) before this, or any remnant of knowledge (ye may have), if ye are telling the truth!] Surah 46
Now if the evolution's followers are speaking the truth : they have to bring any remnant of knowledge to prove their case .
We believe that human evolved during [ the stages of embryo ] . also the creation of Adam passed several stages . but all of them were the stages of human creation only . by Allah's will and according to his absolute ability
The atheistic evolution theory has no place in Islam
One of the major issues in The holy Quran [ the issue of creation ]
Therefore Allah challenged the mankind with their different beliefs [ Jesus , Chance , evolution , natural selection , …………………………… ] to break this fact
[73. O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!74. No just estimate have they made of Allah. for Allah is He Who is strong and able to Carry out His Will. ] Surah 22
And they will never prove the opposite . therefore Allah made the challenge easier on them :
[4. Say: "Do ye see what it is ye invoke besides Allah. Show me what it is they have created on earth, or have they a share in the heavens bring me a book (revealed) before this, or any remnant of knowledge (ye may have), if ye are telling the truth!] Surah 46
Now if the evolution's followers are speaking the truth : they have to bring any remnant of knowledge to prove their case .
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Rev. Hydrogen
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Post #5
[Replying to steps]
Yes, agreed. At least one of us is attending to a lie!
Looking at your explanation of creation kindly provided...
Human did not evolve like science suggests?
That prehuman humans diverged from a 'gibbonlike'
common ancestor around 5 million years ago -the very same common ancestor that has given rise to our Chimps, Orangs and Gorillas!
All these genomes have been sequence mapped by machines and compared
with us. The same machines can synthesize infective complete virus like Polio.
So I am a microbiologist by training, an ex christian.
Looking at the science behind evolution it is faultless.
Evolution is a fact. Natural Selection a very very good theory as to what has happened that had stood as a foundation for evolution against all comers.
We evolved from slime and the story is told in the DNA. The DNA evidence
is court strength and 'game over' in paternity or murder trials.
The DNA also contains a molecular clock. Science not only knows
What diverged from what but also when!
And it is game over as well for the creationists whose cosmologies are at variance to the actual disclosure of God we can see around us.
Not accepting the evidence is done by trying to discredit it by offering an alternative. Or purposefully not discover it , I am not sure?
Or worse deception... by saying it happened by the grace of God, who may have laid an evidence trap for those with imperfect faith to test them? Really?
Its like saying that.... TV's and cell phones do not work with radio waves and photons at all. They work by the grace of God who made it look like that was
how they work. Just an elaborate test of faith.
Science kills little cats, not huge tigers like God.
Science has a negative default methodology (that many atheists have aligned them selves with) which works well in forming small bridgeheads of knowledge to solve problems of incredible complexity with figures accurate to within a few parts per thousand billion.
This then is OUR TRUE Cosmology and is no guess!
The early DARK Ages philosophers were under pressure from the poets to invent a universal cosmology.
The cosmology became a guess of the Order of Things from philosophers
and scientists bereft of even a 10x optical lens.
Around 200-300 years ago that cosmology all fell apart, the theories displaced with new theories subject to world peer review.
It was too late for the poets and scribes had been busy producing doctrine.
Apologetics was invented.
You are saying... that evolution has no place in Islam,
then that means Science has no place in Islam?
One cannot 'pick and choose' which parts of science
one can use to substantiate your cosmology.
Perhaps find another Planet where your cosmology is actually evidenced by the disclosure. Meantime, on behalf of Science, we reclaim planet Earth in the name of the 'God of Nature'; & consider any meddling into science re the overruling of the laws of Physics and quantum order (wacky Bible science etc.) blasphemous.
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Yes, agreed. At least one of us is attending to a lie!
Looking at your explanation of creation kindly provided...
Human did not evolve like science suggests?
That prehuman humans diverged from a 'gibbonlike'
common ancestor around 5 million years ago -the very same common ancestor that has given rise to our Chimps, Orangs and Gorillas!
All these genomes have been sequence mapped by machines and compared
with us. The same machines can synthesize infective complete virus like Polio.
So I am a microbiologist by training, an ex christian.
Looking at the science behind evolution it is faultless.
Evolution is a fact. Natural Selection a very very good theory as to what has happened that had stood as a foundation for evolution against all comers.
We evolved from slime and the story is told in the DNA. The DNA evidence
is court strength and 'game over' in paternity or murder trials.
The DNA also contains a molecular clock. Science not only knows
What diverged from what but also when!
And it is game over as well for the creationists whose cosmologies are at variance to the actual disclosure of God we can see around us.
Not accepting the evidence is done by trying to discredit it by offering an alternative. Or purposefully not discover it , I am not sure?
Or worse deception... by saying it happened by the grace of God, who may have laid an evidence trap for those with imperfect faith to test them? Really?
Its like saying that.... TV's and cell phones do not work with radio waves and photons at all. They work by the grace of God who made it look like that was
how they work. Just an elaborate test of faith.
Science kills little cats, not huge tigers like God.
Science has a negative default methodology (that many atheists have aligned them selves with) which works well in forming small bridgeheads of knowledge to solve problems of incredible complexity with figures accurate to within a few parts per thousand billion.
This then is OUR TRUE Cosmology and is no guess!
The early DARK Ages philosophers were under pressure from the poets to invent a universal cosmology.
The cosmology became a guess of the Order of Things from philosophers
and scientists bereft of even a 10x optical lens.
Around 200-300 years ago that cosmology all fell apart, the theories displaced with new theories subject to world peer review.
It was too late for the poets and scribes had been busy producing doctrine.
Apologetics was invented.
You are saying... that evolution has no place in Islam,
then that means Science has no place in Islam?
One cannot 'pick and choose' which parts of science
one can use to substantiate your cosmology.
Perhaps find another Planet where your cosmology is actually evidenced by the disclosure. Meantime, on behalf of Science, we reclaim planet Earth in the name of the 'God of Nature'; & consider any meddling into science re the overruling of the laws of Physics and quantum order (wacky Bible science etc.) blasphemous.
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Post #6
what I will get from your last comment , Nothing !!!
Sir , with all my respect : do not be like some people : they are like the drum . loud voice but empty from inside . If you have any proof about evolution confirms our origin is another creatures ... bring it .
[4. Say: "Do ye see what it is ye invoke besides Allah. Show me what it is they have created on earth, or have they a share in the heavens bring me a book (revealed) before this, or any remnant of knowledge (ye may have), if ye are telling the truth!] Surah 46
No need for the fruitless discussions .
Sir , with all my respect : do not be like some people : they are like the drum . loud voice but empty from inside . If you have any proof about evolution confirms our origin is another creatures ... bring it .
[4. Say: "Do ye see what it is ye invoke besides Allah. Show me what it is they have created on earth, or have they a share in the heavens bring me a book (revealed) before this, or any remnant of knowledge (ye may have), if ye are telling the truth!] Surah 46
No need for the fruitless discussions .
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Rev. Hydrogen
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Post #7
[Replying to post 6 by steps]
Maybe fruitless discussion for those who are
too busy thinking or talking. Those that have already made up their minds. But I am here to learn from that, and understand it, plus there may be some whose frequency might be elevated from such a discussion.
The evidence You seek is yourself. The beauty of
our long evolution is not something to be easily dismissed.
To not notice it, has ramifications into our personal
honesty. For example you accept the science where it has no conflict with your belief, but fail to do so where it conflicts. The Creation sequence for the origin of man becomes the antithesis of science.
Thus the Abrahamic religions become the antithesis of reason and Logic (science method).
Unfortunately for believers, science gives the reader little room to 'Pick and Choose' what is true. It is or it is not, (or the Jury is still in progress).
On the other hand something does not have to be true for somebody to believe it.
Telling me You believe something, is the same as telling me You DON"T KNOW something.
When you Don't know something for example
A Christian has never met Jesus or God, then
uses that cosmology to Trump reason and Logic
(with regards to creation vs evolution), then that
is peculiar and warrants investigating.
The answers lie in programs we store in our unconscious minds, and these too when understood are customized relics of our long animal heritage.
they are selfish to self and kind and deeply tribal.
In order to understand this, we must first begin to understand ourselves and what and who we are?
- a question very few can begin to answer...yet these same
masses presume to know all about God and the intent of the creator. Only by understand our false parts can we begin to see what is truth.
or how are you supposed to know about anything else if You do not know what/who you are?
And as a mystic, I'm convinced the early philosophers who were called upon to create these creation cosmologies had absolutely no idea either.
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Maybe fruitless discussion for those who are
too busy thinking or talking. Those that have already made up their minds. But I am here to learn from that, and understand it, plus there may be some whose frequency might be elevated from such a discussion.
The evidence You seek is yourself. The beauty of
our long evolution is not something to be easily dismissed.
To not notice it, has ramifications into our personal
honesty. For example you accept the science where it has no conflict with your belief, but fail to do so where it conflicts. The Creation sequence for the origin of man becomes the antithesis of science.
Thus the Abrahamic religions become the antithesis of reason and Logic (science method).
Unfortunately for believers, science gives the reader little room to 'Pick and Choose' what is true. It is or it is not, (or the Jury is still in progress).
On the other hand something does not have to be true for somebody to believe it.
Telling me You believe something, is the same as telling me You DON"T KNOW something.
When you Don't know something for example
A Christian has never met Jesus or God, then
uses that cosmology to Trump reason and Logic
(with regards to creation vs evolution), then that
is peculiar and warrants investigating.
The answers lie in programs we store in our unconscious minds, and these too when understood are customized relics of our long animal heritage.
they are selfish to self and kind and deeply tribal.
In order to understand this, we must first begin to understand ourselves and what and who we are?
- a question very few can begin to answer...yet these same
masses presume to know all about God and the intent of the creator. Only by understand our false parts can we begin to see what is truth.
or how are you supposed to know about anything else if You do not know what/who you are?
And as a mystic, I'm convinced the early philosophers who were called upon to create these creation cosmologies had absolutely no idea either.
------------------------------------------------------
Post #8
who has nothing [ the chance or the evolution ] gives all things ?
who has no ability gives ability . explain it
who has no wisdom gives wisdom . explain it
who is random gives perfect system . explain it
who has no eyes gives eyes . explain it
who has no power gives power . explain it
who does not own the concepts of beauty gives beautifulness . explain it
and thus …
whenever we see very advanced device , it means this device has been subjected to complicated laws and contains advanced conditions that control the device .
he is insane who believes : the highest complicated system [ the universe ] which contains uncountable Laws and conditions have been made by the chance or the evolution is controlling him .
For example : if you look at your fingers , you will find an extra skin above the joints . who created these fingers and the joints and the extra skin above them . knew from the beginning the mechanics of movement , knew from the beginning the missions of the fingers .
The organic Seismometer is already in many creatures before billions of years .
The organic Ultrasound device is already in many creatures before billions of years .
The organic night vision device is already in many creatures before billions of years .
The organic compass device is already in many creatures before billions of years .
The case does not need the sciences or the labs nor the researches and the studies . all it needs : a sane man uses his mind , and a sane man does not want to use his mind .
I am using my mind against your science . my religion has no relation with this comment .
bring affirmative evidences support the evolution , and when you show me the evolution step by step . then you can change my idea about evolution .
who has no ability gives ability . explain it
who has no wisdom gives wisdom . explain it
who is random gives perfect system . explain it
who has no eyes gives eyes . explain it
who has no power gives power . explain it
who does not own the concepts of beauty gives beautifulness . explain it
and thus …
whenever we see very advanced device , it means this device has been subjected to complicated laws and contains advanced conditions that control the device .
he is insane who believes : the highest complicated system [ the universe ] which contains uncountable Laws and conditions have been made by the chance or the evolution is controlling him .
For example : if you look at your fingers , you will find an extra skin above the joints . who created these fingers and the joints and the extra skin above them . knew from the beginning the mechanics of movement , knew from the beginning the missions of the fingers .
The organic Seismometer is already in many creatures before billions of years .
The organic Ultrasound device is already in many creatures before billions of years .
The organic night vision device is already in many creatures before billions of years .
The organic compass device is already in many creatures before billions of years .
The case does not need the sciences or the labs nor the researches and the studies . all it needs : a sane man uses his mind , and a sane man does not want to use his mind .
I am using my mind against your science . my religion has no relation with this comment .
bring affirmative evidences support the evolution , and when you show me the evolution step by step . then you can change my idea about evolution .
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Rev. Hydrogen
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- Location: New Zealand
Post #9
[Replying to post 8 by steps]
Good Morning...
Firstly I am in agreement with you, as a theist, about things being unable to unfold just by random chance.
We agree about about the need for a creator, but that is where we must part company. The problem for me starts as soon as you begin to ascribe attributes like intent to a creator that You (others)
have not personally met.
The beauty and complexity of our world tells me it
could not have happened without some X factor
(as atheists and many scientists suggest).
But that does not mean your Local folk law becomes
a proven fact. IE You cannot endorse Allah as the creator just on the basis the science (world view),
is stretched to accommodate beauty and meaning.
And especially when the Islam cosmology (creation)
does not match the God of Natures obvious disclosure.
There are other alternatives than the Abrahamic Religions. Have You looked properly?
I was indoctrinated into Christianity as a result of my family circumstances. I began a 6 year search for the truth about the beauty and order behind all things.
But the case does need the sciences to align
otherwise the poets will have to tell stories.
Like Christianity, the complex framework of
the belief system and its' components puts the entire
concept in a crumbling 'house of cards'.
The truth about our heritage- Evolution is important in religious discussions because so much rides on it for the adherents.
Creation sequence where God has interplay with man is required so that Sin could be introduced to Mankind. I am very much of the opinion there is no such thing as sin in our universe, although there can be evil. Everything is evolution has an antecedent or
forbearer. Everything, even the human reflective mind which differs from every other animal mind.
But sin has no evolutionary antecedent., in that it cannot be explained by evolution.
However sin can be easily identified as a function and residing of Ego, our false part.,our biased judging thinker.
--------------------------------------------------
All things, is Matter and energy in this dimension.
It is nothing but a separation of nothing into charge,
As it happens this universe is a mostly positive one.
since the antimatter is mostly confined to black holes.
That is how it happens. Rutherford first split the atom in 1917 and identified the proton. Things have come a long way in our knowledge of matter and energy to the point where there are very few unknowns.
After looking at all the cosmologies. I have chosen panpsychism as the obvious source of the X factor
providing the beauty of our world. Panpsychism is
as old as Pythagoras. Where the molecules have the ability to think and act right down to the electrons and quarks. Now the Hadron Colliders proving that.
EG electrons themselves have no choice but to have choice. It is the only way that the matter and energy could organize itself post Big Bang.
Note we agree random cosmology is false, yet here the cosmology is in line with the scientific findings.
---------------------------------------------------
Good Morning...
Firstly I am in agreement with you, as a theist, about things being unable to unfold just by random chance.
We agree about about the need for a creator, but that is where we must part company. The problem for me starts as soon as you begin to ascribe attributes like intent to a creator that You (others)
have not personally met.
The beauty and complexity of our world tells me it
could not have happened without some X factor
(as atheists and many scientists suggest).
But that does not mean your Local folk law becomes
a proven fact. IE You cannot endorse Allah as the creator just on the basis the science (world view),
is stretched to accommodate beauty and meaning.
And especially when the Islam cosmology (creation)
does not match the God of Natures obvious disclosure.
There are other alternatives than the Abrahamic Religions. Have You looked properly?
I was indoctrinated into Christianity as a result of my family circumstances. I began a 6 year search for the truth about the beauty and order behind all things.
But the case does need the sciences to align
otherwise the poets will have to tell stories.
Like Christianity, the complex framework of
the belief system and its' components puts the entire
concept in a crumbling 'house of cards'.
The truth about our heritage- Evolution is important in religious discussions because so much rides on it for the adherents.
Creation sequence where God has interplay with man is required so that Sin could be introduced to Mankind. I am very much of the opinion there is no such thing as sin in our universe, although there can be evil. Everything is evolution has an antecedent or
forbearer. Everything, even the human reflective mind which differs from every other animal mind.
But sin has no evolutionary antecedent., in that it cannot be explained by evolution.
However sin can be easily identified as a function and residing of Ego, our false part.,our biased judging thinker.
--------------------------------------------------
All things, is Matter and energy in this dimension.
It is nothing but a separation of nothing into charge,
As it happens this universe is a mostly positive one.
since the antimatter is mostly confined to black holes.
That is how it happens. Rutherford first split the atom in 1917 and identified the proton. Things have come a long way in our knowledge of matter and energy to the point where there are very few unknowns.
After looking at all the cosmologies. I have chosen panpsychism as the obvious source of the X factor
providing the beauty of our world. Panpsychism is
as old as Pythagoras. Where the molecules have the ability to think and act right down to the electrons and quarks. Now the Hadron Colliders proving that.
EG electrons themselves have no choice but to have choice. It is the only way that the matter and energy could organize itself post Big Bang.
Note we agree random cosmology is false, yet here the cosmology is in line with the scientific findings.
---------------------------------------------------
Post #10
My suggestion : I will add quranic facts , and you will comment about them . and I promise you I will never reply your comments .
Because I want to show you the strong connection between the modern sciences and the Quran . the scientific facts cannot exit from the circle of the Quran . they confirmed the holy Quran .
Do you agree ?
Because I want to show you the strong connection between the modern sciences and the Quran . the scientific facts cannot exit from the circle of the Quran . they confirmed the holy Quran .
Do you agree ?
