Quran confirms Torah/Gospel and attack Talmud/Trinity

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Bigmo
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Quran confirms Torah/Gospel and attack Talmud/Trinity

Post #1

Post by Bigmo »

Some people have said that the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and its no longer a book of guidance. They say "Islam" says so. Some Muslims even have said that anyone who still follows these scriptures is no longer a believer but a disbeliever and will go to hell. Indeed some Sunni/Shia scholars claim that any follower of islam who does not believe that the Jews and Christians are infidels is an infidel himself! However when asked to provide their evidence from the Koran they are mute and confused. This is because what they say and the Koran are complete opposites. Lets look at the Koran and what it say:

Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)

Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 68)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A'raf, verse 159)

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

2.91 When it is said to them, “Believe in what God Hath sent down, “they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:� yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?�

Here the Koran clearly states the Koran confirms what is with them, meaning the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Clearly this is not stating scriptures of the past but what they have possession of at the time the Koran was revealed. These scriptures are identical in every way to the scriptures these religions still have today known as the Old Testament and New Testament or the Bible as some call it. As I did my research about this subject some time ago I was looking for where this evidence of the tampering and corruption of the Bible is mentioned in the Koran as claimed by the Sunni/Shia sectarianist. How can God say the previous scriptures are corrupted then order them to follow them? It even attacks those who refuse to follow it and says its a path to salvation and mentions them in an equal footing as the Koran.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48

It even uses the previous scripture as evidence for the validity of the Koran:

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)

Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way they are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about other than the current Bible? They then point to this verse as evidence of the corruption and tampering of the previous scriptures(ie the Bible).

2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.

2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book and the follow up verses brings light to a religious scripture followed by the Judaic faith thats not the Old Testament.

2.80 And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"

This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.

The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[4] Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna� is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[5] Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever,[6] in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also in the Talmud:

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

The Koran condemned this:
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant Gentiles." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.


Also:

The Schindler's List Quote

The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.

The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase:

"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."

However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.

In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.

In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.

The Koran tells us about this and condemns this:

5.32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...

The koran tells us:

4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The Talmud then say:

Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.

Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books") will have no portion in the world to come.

Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

The koran responds by:

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113

“Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first� - (Babba Bathra 54b)

“If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit� - (Choschen Ham 183,7)

“Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin� - (Babha Kama 113a)

“The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew� - (Talmud IV/2/70b)

The koran then says:

4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.

Note: The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek").See the Old Testament Ex. 22: 25;
Le. 25: 36-37; De. 23:19-20; Ne. 5: 7/10; Ps. 15: 5; Pr. 28:8

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

The Koran then says many Israelite are believers who obey God's commands:

4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.

As for the Gospel

Jesus is reported to have said “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father� and “I am in the Father, and the Father in me� (John 14:9-10); but in the same passage he shortly goes on to add: “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.� (John 14:20) Again, while Jesus does proclaim “I and my Father are one� (John 10:30), he also prays for his followers, “that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.� (John 17:21) Whatever the nature of the “oneness� Jesus is claiming exists between God and himself, it is apparently something that is supposed to hold between God and all Christians – in which case it can hardly be the relation of numerical identity.

Likewise, in the two New Testament passages where Jesus is said to have regarded himself as “equal with God� – John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 – the Greek word translated “equal� is isos, which means “on the same level� or “of the same rank,� never “identical.� The claim that Jesus was God did not become Christian orthodoxy until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. The orthodox reading of these passages seems natural today only because they are read through the lens of what “everybody knows� about Jesus’ claims to divinity; few would find incarnationism in the texts unless they first brought it there.

An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the “Logos� with God (John 1:1) and the “Logos made flesh� with Jesus (John 1:14). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like “the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was� – an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term “Logos� is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing’s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is “with� God and is what God is, is not God but God’s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God’s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God’s spirit (Genesis 2:7) and in God’s image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27).

Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God’s nature:


“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.� (John 1:12-13)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.� (Romans 8:14-17)

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.� (1 John 3:2)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus’ message, being the “Son of God� is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians;


http://praxeology.net/unblog02-04.htm

Clearly this has no basis in the Gospel, the Koran reiterates this:

People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)

"And they say, The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son. You have indeed advanced something hideous. As if the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder and its mountain to fall down in the utter ruin for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and behaves not the All-merciful to take a son. None there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant" (Maryam 19:88-93)

There is nothing, absolutely nothing about corruption or tampering of previous scriptures. The Koran states that the Talmud is NOT the word of God and says the Christian priests are NOT following the Gospel but indeed they hide and conceal and take things out of context and following vain desires:

"They (i.e. Jews and Christians) changed words from their contexts and forgot a good part of the message given to them, and you will continue to find them -except a few among them- bent on new deceits…" (5:13)

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from God,' but it is not from God: It is they who tell a lie against God and (well) they know it! (3,78)

The Koran came to Confirm and not abrogate the previous scriptures as the Sunni/Shia sects claim. And like Jesus it condemned the Talmudic traditions. The Islamic sects created the exact type of oral traditions that they believe "explains" the Koran and indeed abrogates it. These oral traditions were compiled by Muslim jurist two centuries after Muhammad and these traditions dominate the teachings of these sects.

The Koran is here to support and confirm the previous scriptures. A reminder to many not to abandon the scriptures and follow men. The scriptures must be read as a WHOLE and not in isolation.

Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. ( 2,85)

"Say: We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. " 2:136

"The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying. " 2:285

{4:152}
"And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."


Quran is peace.

steps
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Post #2

Post by steps »

The holy Quran confirms the gospel of Jesus only . Allah says : [46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.]Surah 5 , the Table .

So the guidance and the light in the gospel of Jesus only but not in the gospels of : Mark, Matthew , Luke , John .

Of course you do not have it . you do not know where is it .

Also the holy Quran confirms the book of Moses only , Allah says : [12. And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.] Surah 46

So the guidance and the light in the book of Moses only but not in the book of :Geneses , exudes …………………
Of course you do not have it . you do not know where is it .

The holy Quran is united .

The holy Quran confirms the Jews and the Christians corrupted the books of Allah :

[79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.] Surah 2

[75. Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.]Surah 2

[12. Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."13. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.15. O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-16. Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight. ]


If I assume you are a Quranic , You are against your belief … because the Quran itself confirmed they corrupted the books of Allah . and your sayings against the Quran .

My advice : be honest with yourself ,if you want people to accept you . no need to hide your identity and your belief behind masks .

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Yusef
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The Decoders of Quran

Post #3

Post by Yusef »

Bigmo wrote:4.157 they told: we killd Jesus the messenger of God; but they killed him Not! Nor crucified him!... But so it was made to appear to them.. and those who differ therin are full of doubt with no knowledge..
Brother steps, Tell me as a alien religion, What happened for Jesus the Prophet??
I searched in the Qur'an and didn't find that.
If you say anything such as the Imamat of Shia MUST be mentiond in the Qur'an, therefore Answere me! What happened Jesus(a.s.) if Qur'an says he wasn't killed nor crocified???
The 5th Imam, Muhammad AlBaghir(a.s.) said: "..when the them decided to find Jesus(a.s.) and crosify him, then Jesus asked his followers: O' believers, Which one of you is ready to be instead of me and they crosify him and he will be with me in the Paradise?? Then a young boy accepted and he was been look like Jesus and they crosified him and Jesus went to sky"
Well, Convice me If there wasn't any Decoder[Imam] for Qur'an, How can we understand the Qur'an completely???
An other example I mentioned here:
Yum-Ul-Aashura
If you expect anything must be in the Qur'an, Answere us from Qur'an, What RuhUlQudus[SpiritTheHoly] is???
But Shia has answer in this topic:
What is the Holy Spirit
steps wrote:..Qur'an confirmed the Torah of Musa(a.s.) only....and the Gospel of Jesus(a.s.) only...and those aren't with you and you don't know where are them..
Tell me Where are them???
Tell me Where are:
The Holly Wood of Moses(a.s.)??
The Ring of Solomon(a.s.)??
The War Coffin/Casket of David(a.s.)??
The great Stone/Rock of Beni-Israel which Moses(a.s.) gave them water via that??
The Sword, Zulfiqar of Ali(a.s.)??
The holy books of Adam, Noah, Abraham,...??
and etc....???
Shia says those all are with the Mahdi(a.s.)
Bigmo and steps wrote:..about the view point of Islam about Jews and Christians..
Qur'an, Islam, and Hadith, all say: Jews and Christians are in astray; But if they obey God purely and be right, honest, kind,.... That wont be problem for them, Even the more, At the time of the Saviour, AlMahdi(a.s.), he will judge them depended on their own books!
Therefore how can be killd or going to hell, those who the Savior shall be governed to them and judge them by their books!!!
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

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Post #4

Post by Bigmo »

steps wrote: The holy Quran confirms the gospel of Jesus only . Allah says : [46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.]Surah 5 , the Table .

So the guidance and the light in the gospel of Jesus only but not in the gospels of : Mark, Matthew , Luke , John .

Of course you do not have it . you do not know where is it .

Also the holy Quran confirms the book of Moses only , Allah says : [12. And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.] Surah 46

So the guidance and the light in the book of Moses only but not in the book of :Geneses , exudes …………………
Of course you do not have it . you do not know where is it .

The holy Quran is united .

The holy Quran confirms the Jews and the Christians corrupted the books of Allah :

[79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.] Surah 2

[75. Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.]Surah 2

[12. Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."13. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.15. O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-16. Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight. ]


If I assume you are a Quranic , You are against your belief … because the Quran itself confirmed they corrupted the books of Allah . and your sayings against the Quran .

My advice : be honest with yourself ,if you want people to accept you . no need to hide your identity and your belief behind masks .

If they were corrupted as you say then why would the Quran order Jews and Christians to follow these scriptures? Anyways the Quran is saying the changed the words from their righful places meaning spin. Sunnis and Shias do the same with the Quran. They take verses out of their context. The Israelites because of the Talmudic spin, the Christians because of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, while Muslims because of the Sunnah and hadith.

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Post #5

Post by steps »

no deception , the Quran speaks : Surah the table chapter 5

from verse 41 to verse 50

41. O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

42. (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.

43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

49. And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

50. Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah.

The verses : [ 44 , 45 , 47 ] speak about any person refuses to judge by the laws of Allah : he is unbeliever , he is wrong-doers , he is among those who rebel .
The Jews and the Christians ignored and refused to judge by the laws of Allah .
Verse [ 46 ] speaks about the torah of Moses and the gospel of Jesus only . no deception . the holy Quran does not speak about , the books of OT or NT .
Verse [ 48 ] : speaks about the Quran [guarding it in safety ]. It means the holy Quran showed the corruption such as : [ the lies about Allah , the lies about his prophets , the lies about laws of Allah , the lies about worshipping , ……………. ] and confirmed the true things in the bible .

We do not need an expert to discover the bible is not from God , books by unknown people mixed the true with many lies .

Dr. Ehrman says : there are more differences in our manuscripts than there are words in our NT



Bigmo
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Post #6

Post by Bigmo »

[Replying to steps]

What you are saying now is the Quran is not talking about the OT and Nt we have today. Well then what does the Quran means when it says:

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

What is these scriptures they (Jews) have with them that the Quran says it came to confirm and says that they should be following.

Plus you quoted verses that contradicts what you are saying.

3. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

Now you are trying to run away from these verses by saying these are not the OT and Nt we have today. So what was the OT and Nt they had with them when the Quran was revealed?

Sunni/Shia Islam solved that issue by abrogating those verses or putting a spin by hadith stories. What are you relying on?

steps
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Post #7

Post by steps »

TO : Bigmo

once again : We do not need an expert to discover the bible is not from God , books by unknown people mixed the true with many lies .

verse 43 :

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

the verse speaks about the Torah . and the Torah is not the gospel .

1st : the verse is a testimony against the Jews ,because it confirmed that they deny the Torah , and accepting the judgment of prophet Mohammad . so if the Jews do not believe in Mohammad , and they claimed their book from Allah , and prophet Mohammad is not a messenger from Allah then :
Why do they not believe in Mohammad but they did accept his judgment ?
And why do they believe in Moses but they did refuse his judgment ?

2nd : the verse is confirming the truth about prophet Mohammad , and he is a messenger from Allah . because the occasion of this verse about specific Law , but not Laws . it is the law of committing adultery . and the verse do not speak about all laws of Allah in the Torah .
The Jews claimed the stoning Law is not in the Torah . but the inspiration came to condemn the Jews . and confirmed the law of stoning still in their books .

3rd : the intention of the Jews crossed the limit of [ changing , deception , or hiding the truth ] . they hoped prophet Mohammad will accept their evil act .

4th : the law of adultery according to OT : [22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. 23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. ] 22Deu

----------------------
Now we come to the gospel

The Christians themselves confirmed they have changed the book , and they do not have the original Gospel .

Verses 46 , 47 : do not cut the context of the verses. Because verse 47 is connected with the verse 46 .

[46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. 47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. ]

verse 47 is a command from Allah to judge by the gospel in verse 46 [ the gospel of Jesus ]


Jesus has been given a gospel : 16 Mat [13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.]

And the Quran says in Surah Mary chapter 19 : [29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;]

Where is this gospel ? when you find it , you have the right to object on the Quran .
Where did the Quran mention the gospel of Matthew from Allah ?
Where did the Quran mention the gospel of John from Allah ?
Where did the Quran mention the gospel of Mark from Allah ?
Where did the Quran mention the gospel of Luke from Allah ?
Where ?
Where ?
Where ?
When you prove the Quran is saying these books from Allah then you have the right to object on the Quran ?

The misunderstanding in your mind not in the Quran : the Quran speaks about the guidance and light in the Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus . not the books of [ OT or NT ] .


And as I said before : books by unknown people mixed the true with many lies .

The first chapter of Luke's Gospel [1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.]

The man is writing a story , Zero inspiration ,only authoring .


Also : 2Corinthians , chapter 11 [16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.]

1Corinthians chapter 7[25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.]

which refers us to the Judgement of the Quran that says : If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

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