Quran only recognizes defensive war, no offensive war

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Bigmo
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Quran only recognizes defensive war, no offensive war

Post #1

Post by Bigmo »

After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And also this verse:

9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them:

2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

Also:

2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. 7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.


Also in the same chapter it explains the reason behind all of these battles fought

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!


The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth . As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

These verses show us clearly that the battles the believers fought was purely for defensive purposes as the believers were being persecuted because they believed in the teachings of the Quran. The pagans wanted the Quran to cease to exist and wanted the prophet and his followers to perish. This is why freedom of religion in the Quran is sacrosanct. The Koran more than any other literature guaranteed the absolute right for freedom of belief and expression and thought.


The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet:

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

But most of all the Koran asks the prophet himself this question:

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

Then again the Quran tells us:

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine

There is nothing even called conquest in the Koran and there is nothing called paying taxes and offensive war and spreading faith by the sword are not Koranic whatsoever and is a direct disobedience to the orders of the Koran. Jizya in the Quran came when the believers were entering Mecca where they were forced into exile and left their homeland losing their livlihoods, homes and businesses. Jizya was never mentioned except upon the pagans of Mecca. Jizya was a war reparation and compensation for damages. The prophet was in Medina where many non believers lived under his domain but was never ordered to seek Jizya. Later Muslim authorities applied Jizya to anyone living under a Muslim ruler who are not Muslims as a form of tax. This is not the context it appears in the Quran.

So the Sunni/Shia concept that peaceful verses were abrogated by later verses that moved from defensive war to offensive has no backing from the Quran. This is because the permission allowed to fight has been outlined in the Quran. Only when provoked and forced should we fight. The prophet was a victim of religious coercion and persecution for religious propagation.

“The contemporary Islamic al-Azhar influential scholar, Muhammad Sa`id Ramadan al-Buti, says in his well-known research: “The verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war which is demanded in Islamic law is not a defensive war, because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all Holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of Allah and the construction of Islamic society and the establishment of Allah’s kingdom on Earth regardless the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive Holy War.� �

“Al-Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73, but a case of delaying or postponing the command to fight the infidels until the Muslims become strong. When they were weak, they were commanded to endure and be patient. The first verse that was revealed in the Qur’an about fighting in Medina is Surah 2 verse 190, until Surah 9 was revealed, and it was cancelled by Surah 9 verse 5. �

So we can see how the Islamic sects abrogated many the defensive war verses claiming verse 9.5 abrogated the defensive war only verses and changed it to offensive war. They believe in this due to the following hadith recorded in Bukhari's and Muslim's collections. Hadiths were compiled two centuries after the Quran was revealed.

Ibn ‘Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, “I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah.� (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)�

This hadith violates tens of Quranic commands about freedom and defensive war.


In the Quran we see the concept of religious persecution was a hallmark of pagan societies and oppressive tyrants.

They said: "O Shuayb! Much of what thou sayest we do not understand! In fact among us we see that thou hast no strength! Were it not for thy family, we should certainly have stoned thee! For thou hast among us no great position!" 11:91

(The father) replied: "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee : now get away from me for a good long while!" .19:46

The (people) said: "For us, We augur an evil omen from you: if ye desist not, we will certainly stone you , or a grievous punishment indeed will be inflicted on you by us." 36:18

They said: "If thou desist not, O Noah! thou shalt be stoned. 26.116

Pharaoh said, "Did you believe in him without my permission? This must be a conspiracy you schemed in the city, in order to take its people away. You will surely find out. "I will cut your hands and feet on alternate sides, then I will crucify you all." 7.123-124

All of these verses tell us how the prophets were persecuted for their religious propogation. The prophet of the Quran met the same fate. He was ordered to fight back and to complete the message of the Quran. But he was also ordered to limit his duty to preaching. If the people decide on him to judge between them than he is to do with justice.

Quran is peace

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Post #2

Post by Divine Insight »

Jesus teaches to love thy enemy and turn the other cheek.

Therefore the Qur'an can only have been written by the anti-Christ.
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Post #3

Post by Yusef »

Divine Insight wrote:..quran is anti christ..
Dear, I've answered your mistake Exactly here:
Quran confirm OT/NT

Also You, Bingo:
Yum-Ul-Aashura
I assume your beliefs are the better! Well, be soldier of God and convert me. By your own reasonings also tell me my wrong beliefs and why..>> :study:

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Post #4

Post by Divine Insight »

Yusef wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:..quran is anti christ..
Dear, I've answered your mistake Exactly here:
Quran confirm OT/NT
The Muslims are hypocrites.

They claim Jesus as a prophet whilst refusing to accept that what he taught was truth.

Jesus taught that men are to love their enemies and turn the other cheek.

The OP of this thread makes it clearly that Islam and the Qur'an are totally anti-Jesus in terms of what Jesus taught.

So the Qur'an is clearly corrupt and cannot be true with respect to the New Testament Gospels of Jesus. And this is true even if both Christianity and Islam are totally fictitious fairytales (which I personally believe they are).

They are both hate cults hell-bent on hating each other in the name of their fictitious jealous God. And unfortunately they both also hate the entire rest of humanity in the name of their egotistical jealous Gods as well.

Both Christianity and Islam are, at their heart, nothing more than hate cults.
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Post #5

Post by steps »

Divine Insight wrote:
Yusef wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:..quran is anti christ..
Dear, I've answered your mistake Exactly here:
Quran confirm OT/NT
The Muslims are hypocrites.

They claim Jesus as a prophet whilst refusing to accept that what he taught was truth.

Jesus taught that men are to love their enemies and turn the other cheek.

The OP of this thread makes it clearly that Islam and the Qur'an are totally anti-Jesus in terms of what Jesus taught.

So the Qur'an is clearly corrupt and cannot be true with respect to the New Testament Gospels of Jesus. And this is true even if both Christianity and Islam are totally fictitious fairytales (which I personally believe they are).

They are both hate cults hell-bent on hating each other in the name of their fictitious jealous God. And unfortunately they both also hate the entire rest of humanity in the name of their egotistical jealous Gods as well.

Both Christianity and Islam are, at their heart, nothing more than hate cults.
Let us find out the love from Jesus himself

Jesus said in 12 Luke: [49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: ]

Jesus said in 10Mat : [34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.]

Jesus said in 22luke : [36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. ]

The results :
1- Jesus is speaking the truth [ there is no love ] .
2- OR. The writers of the gospels lied about Jesus , and Jesus never said that .
3- OR. The Christians are lying . and Jesus did not teach people the love .
4- OR. The Christians are hypocrites , they claimed the love but their deeds prove they are killers . they followed the commandments above [ and the history is testifying about this ]

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Post #6

Post by Divine Insight »

Both Christianity and Islam are just different factions of the same underlying hate cult.

Neither of them represent anything even remotely moral.
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Post #7

Post by steps »

Divine Insight wrote: Both Christianity and Islam are just different factions of the same underlying hate cult.

Neither of them represent anything even remotely moral.
I will not attack your background about Christianity , but your background about Islam is Zero .
here is some examples :
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... p?p=517063

the world after billions of years will not reach the Morals of Islam .

but the unbelievers are looking for spreading badness " adultery , Gay , homosexuality , wine ,.............................. " Lusts .

Sir : we are not animals , and the animals have morals more than any human supports forbidden lusts .

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Post #8

Post by Darias »

The problem isn't necessarily what the Qur'an says. The problem is how it is interpreted. Al-Qaida certainly does not believe it is fighting an offensive war. It confuses the self interested, careless, and militant foreign policy of the world's most powerful state for a "systematic plot to destroy Muslims and their faith." It labels the US as a "Christian nation" (even though it is secular), and then uses ancient religious conflicts as "proof that Christians are the aggressors;" this is how al-Qaida sees themselves as "defenders" of Islam. It does not believe civilians are innocent because "they pay taxes and they vote" (it does not realize that paying taxes is mandatory and that Americans largely have no control over what their government does. I also suspect it does not care because Americans are culturally and religiously different from Middle Eastern Muslims). This is how it becomes easy for them to demonize innocents and justify immoral barbarism, like that seen in Kenya recently. Because they believe that they are righteous, they fail to see themselves for the wicked people that they are.

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Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

steps wrote: the world after billions of years will not reach the Morals of Islam .
Of course it won't. Humans are evolving to higher morality all the time. So Islam will naturally be left in the dust fairly soon. It's a highly religiously bigoted religion as well as being highly obsessed with sexual perversion. I can't imagine Islam lasting though another full millennium much less for billions of years. It's an oppressive hate cult that perverts the natural beauty of the most beautiful things in life like love itself, as well as degrading its women. My guess is that it will be seriously diminished to nothing more than perverted superstition even within the next 500 years. I can't see any of these Abrahamic hate cults lasting much longer than this unless the world collapsed back into another dark age. That would be the only hope for religions like Islam and Christianity. Although Christianity is morphing into "Progressive Christianity" which might have some chance at surviving a little if for no other reason than it will be deemed as being harmless.

Pope Francis appears to be trying hard to progress the Catholic Church along those lines as well, so even Catholicism could potentially survive as being at least non-threatening. But Islam has damned itself. It has nowhere to go but down. It will be devoured by its own imaginary concept of hell.
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Post #10

Post by steps »

[Replying to Darias]

I will not say Al-Qaida guilty or not guilty , because the US government has an absolute authority on Media . after 9/11 US government was able to direct all media against Islam and Muslims : [ Iraq , afghanistan , Pakistan , Sudan , somali , ......................]

Many experts confirmed 9/11 is an inside job .

Here is very important fact :

The US government is very smart , they are not saying our enemy is Islam or Muslims. NO ,
they are trying to divide Muslims and Islam to several groups . to give the world a wonderful impression that we are not fighting Muslims or Islam .

so when they Attack Muslims in Afghanistan . they said : we are fighting the terrorism of Al-Qaida and Taliban
when they Attack Muslims in Nigeria . they said : we are fighting the terrorism of Boko Haram
in Syria : Al-Nusra Front
in Egypt : Muslim Brotherhood
in Tunise : Ennahda Movement
in Algeria : Al-jihad movment .
in Somali : Al-Shabaab
in Iraq : Al-Qaida .
In Mali , in Mauritania .
IN Yemen , Saudi Arabia , Bahrain , Jordan there are big troubles
what did remain in the Islamic world did not face attack or under threatening ?

I do not know : when the Muslims will understand the trick of US government and their allies .

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