Christianity vs Islam

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Christianity vs Islam

Post #1

Post by WebersHome »

Islam is reputed to have elements in common with Christianity. You be the

1â—� Christianity's Jesus died by crucifixion.

Islam's Jesus did not die on the cross. (The Women 4.157)

2â—� Christianity's Jesus pre existed in another form before entering the world
scene as a human being.

Islam's Jesus is an ordinary human being and nothing more. (The Family of
Imran 3.59, The Dinner Table 5.75, and The Immunity 9.30)

3â—� Christianity's God has a son.

Islam's God has no son. (The Women 4.171)


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Re: Christianity vs Islam

Post #2

Post by snake »

[Replying to post 1 by WebersHome]

Christians believe Jesus did die on the cross any Muslims up for debate???

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Re: Christianity vs Islam

Post #3

Post by Muslim2016 »

[Replying to WebersHome]

There is no concrete evidence showing Jesus pbuh died on the cross. You have oral traditions from non eyewitness accounts, largely written down in the 4th Century.

Jesus pbuh may have been aware that his spirit existed long before his earthly body, but that is true of ALL humans.

The Bible has many sons of GOD and Muslims agree. Anyone who follows the teachings of GOD would be considered a child of GOD.

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Post #4

Post by snake »

Hi there

I saw you have put a few points for Christians to answer i am happy to do so see below...

Sura 4.157-8
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Allah took him up to himself and Allah is mighty ,wise

there is no evidence to support this revelation except to the Muslim who believes the Qur'an is the word of Allah (God)........ .all reliable historical research both Christians , Jewish ,atheist and some Muslims historians support the death of Jesus and Crucifixion with the gospels regarded highly as an historical source.

it is true that the gospel are written some years after the event.the earliest is Mark written some between 65-75AD the lateness off these dates need not to be concern when its understood that in these times there was an oral tradition (where people tented to learn by and trust more what they heard then read as with some of the Qur'an) remember that Jesus died round bout 31 - 33 AD and so late is not really late there were false stories being spread see also MATT 28,11-15......but these gospels were eye witnesses and their accounts and when there were still eyewitness around who could easily refuted them if they were false MATT 27.54-56 MARK 15.39-41 LUKE 1;2 LUKE 23;47-49 JOHN 19;25-27...IN addition Jesus trusted the authority his followers trusted it to see MATT 5;17-18

Second part :

In Isaiah 42:8 GOD said
I am yahew (GOD) that is my name i will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

In John 17.5 Jesus saying:
father glorify me with the glory i had with you before the world was.

In John 3.13 he is talking about Jesus
no one has ascended into heaven accept for the one who descended from heaven the son of man

Philippians 2:6-11 (Paul wrote)

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

these few verses indicate that Jesus is a preexisted being who existed with GOD in the beginning there are many more i can point out....


the bible have many Sons of God and people were called Gods yes
but when you read these verses you can pic up that there's no confusion of the creator and the creature for example:

GOD said to Moses go to Egypt to demand the release of the Israelite from slavery.Moses said that he could not speak with assurance or eloquence so GOD allowed Aaron his brother to become his spokesperson..Just as God send prophets out into the land to talk on behalf of him Moses is sending his brother to talk on behalf of him....(God said to Moses see i make you a GOD to Pharaoh).

Many was called the Sons of God in the Old Testament as well Angels were called the Son of God,the king of Israel,Adam was also called the son of GOD

But Jesus were called the only begotten Son of GOD who had no earthly father and there far called God his father right true our scriptures even in the old testament GOD himself declare the coming of his son

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

so i hope i have help by explaining to you looking forward of hearing from you again........

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Post #5

Post by Muslim2016 »

[Replying to post 4 by snake]

Hi Snake and thank you for your response.

We should address one point at a time until it reaches a conclusion, starting with the Crucifixion of Jesus pbuh. We have ALLAH swt tell us it did not happen 600 hundred years after Jesus pbuh was taken up.

The earliest account as you rightly point out is found in the Gospel of Mark. Historians say it was most likely first penned around 30+ years after the events from oral traditions circulating amongst the faithful. However we do not find a complete copy of Mark until some 280 Years after the events, Codex Sinaiticus 345 AD.

In it we read of the events surrounding the Crucifixion, namely Jesus pbuh is asked for a sign and states none shall be given but the sign of Jonah pbuh, for just as Jonah had been in the belly of the Whale for 3 days and 3 nights, so too will the son of man be in the belly of the Earth for 3 days and 3 nights.

You say he died, was buried and rose on the first day of the week, (Sunday)

Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour[d] when they crucified him. (9:00am)

Mark 15:33 And when the sixth hour[f] had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.[g] 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?� which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?�

We see he died in the afternoon of Friday, after a sudden darkness came over the land lasting several hours.

So he's in the tomb Friday Night of the Sabbath, Saturday day = 1 night and 1 day

Saturday night and Sunday morning = 2nd Night and 2nd Day

Mark 16:2 And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.

This shows Jesus pbuh failed the Prophecy of Jonah pbuh which was very specific. 3 Days and 3 Nights. Also:

Miracle 1 Jonah survived being thrown into the Sea (Jesus pbuh died)
Miracle 2 Jonah survived being swallowed by a Whale (Jesus pbuh died)
Miracle 3 Jonah survived in the belly of the Whale for 3 Nights and 3 Days (Jesus pbuh died for 2 days and nights)
Miracle 4 Jonah survived the whole ordeal and was delivered onto the shore. (Jesus pbuh rose from the dead)

Jesus pbuh according to Christian accounts failed on all accounts of his own Prophecy.

OR you can take ALLAH's word and agree, he was never killed nor claim he would be.

Also what does vinegar do to someone suffering trauma?

Mark 15:36 And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.�

Would the vinegar have induced a coma?

The Centurion who pierced him was a believer, as he says, Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he[h] breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!�

Pilate is surprised GOD Himself could die within 6 hours so asks the same Centurion if it is so, and he replies with confirmation.

Joseph is then given the body and takes it to a private garden and places it inside a tomb, placing a large stone over the entrance.

The tomb, however, was not immediately closed over the dead. During the first three days it was customary for the relatives to visit the grave to see whether the dead had come to life again.

And what of the Resurrection:

Mark 16:1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 2 And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb. 3 And they were saying to one another, “Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?� 4 And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back—it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. 6 And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.� 8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. <<<This is where Mark's Gospel ENDS!

Sounds like he woke from his injuries and left the Tomb.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: (Al-Quran 4:157)

Let's address the first contention before moving onto points 2 & 3.

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Post #6

Post by snake »

[Replying to post 5 by Muslim2016]

Hi there again hope you doing well

Most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not haveMark 16:9–20.� Were these verses in the original Gospel of Mark?

Solution: Scholars are divided over the authenticity of these verses. Those who follow the received text tradition point to the fact that this text is found in the majority of biblical manuscripts down through the centuries. Thus, they believe it was in the original manuscript of Mark.

And if it does not belong, there is no truth missing in the Bible, since everything taught here is found elsewhere in Scripture.

Answer: The phrase sign of Jonah.. was used by Jesus as a typological metaphor for His future crucifixion, burial, and resurection. Jesus answered with this expression when asked by the Pharisees for miraculous proof the He was indeed the Messiah. The Pharisees remained unconvinced of Jesus’ claims about Himself, despite His having just cured a demon-possessed man who was both blind and mute. Shortly after the Pharisees accused Jesus of driving out demons by the power of Satan, they said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.� He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and 3 nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here� (Matthew 12:38–41).

To fully appreciate the answer that Jesus gave, we must go to the Old Testament book of Jonah. In its first chapter, we read that God commanded the prophet Jonah to go to the city of Nineveh and warn its people that He was going to destroy it for its wickedness. Jonah disobediently ran from the Lord and headed for the city of Tarshish by boat. The Lord then sent a severe storm that caused the crew of the ship to fear for their lives. Jonah was soon thrown overboard and swallowed by a great fish where he remained for “three days and three nights� (Jonah 1:15–17). After the three-day period, the Lord caused the great fish to vomit Jonah out onto dry land (Jonah 2:10).

It is this three days that Jesus was referring to when He spoke of the sign of Jonah. Jesus had already been producing miracles that were witnessed by many. Jesus had just performed a great sign in the Pharisees’ presence by healing a deaf man who was possessed of a demon. Rather than believe, they accused Jesus of doing this by the power of Satan. Jesus recognized their hardness of heart and refused to give them further proof of His identity. However, He did say that there would be one further sign forthcoming, His resurrection from the dead. This would be their final opportunity to be convinced.

Jesus’ paralleling of the Pharisees with the people of Nineveh is telling. The people of Nineveh repented of their evil ways (Jonah 3:4–10) after hearing Jonah’s call for repentance, while the Pharisees continued in their unbelief despite being eyewitnesses to the miracles of Jesus. Jesus was telling the Pharisees that they were culpable for their unbelief, given the conversion of the people of Nineveh, sinners who had received far less evidence than the Pharisees themselves had witnessed.

But what are we to make of the phrase “three days and three nights�? Was Jesus saying that He would be dead for three full 24-hour periods before He would rise from the dead? It does not appear so. The phrase “three days and three nights� need not refer to a literal 72-hour period. Rather, according to the Hebrew reckoning of time, the days could refer to three days in part or in whole. Jesus was probably crucified on a Friday (Mark 15:42). According to the standard reckoning, Jesus died at about 3:00 PM (Matthew 27:46) on Friday (day 1). He remained dead for all of Saturday (day 2) and rose from the dead early on Sunday morning (day 3). Attempts to place Jesus’ death on Wednesday to accommodate a literal 72-hour period are probably unnecessary once we take into account the Hebrew method of reckoning of each day as beginning at sundown. So it seems that the expression “three days and three nights� was used as a figure of speech meant to signify any part of three days.

God would often use signs (or miracles) in the Bible to authenticate His chosen messenger. The Lord provided Moses with several miraculous signs in order to prove to others that he was appointed by God (Exodus 4:5–9; 7:8–10;19-20). God sent down fire on Elijah’s altar during Elijah’s contest with the prophets of Baal (1 Kings 18:36–39). He performed this miracle to prove that the God of Israel was the one true God. Jesus Himself would perform many miracles (or “signs�) to demonstrate His power over nature (Matthew 4:23; Mark 6:30–44; Luke 8:22–24; John 6:16–24). The “sign of Jonah� would turn out to be Jesus’ greatest miracle of all. Jesus’ resurrection from the dead would be God’s chief sign that Jesus was Israel’s long-awaited Messiah (Acts 2:23–32) and establish Christ’s claims to deity (Romans 1:3–4).

Answer: Jesus was on the cros for about six hours. “The chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. ‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God�’� (Matthew 27:41–43). Crucifixon was a method the ancient Roman Empire used to carry out the death penalty for those found guilty of a capital ofense. Crucifixion was usually reserved for slaves, foreigners, insurrectionists, and those guilty of the vilest crimes.

The Jewish theocrats, in order to eliminate Jesus and maintain their power, devised a plan to convince Roman authorities that Jesus must be killed (Mark 14:1; cf. John 19:12; 19:15). The Jewish leaders accused Christ of encouraging rebellion and proclaiming Himself as King. This charge of insurrection is how Jesus ended up on a Roman cross rather than being stoned to death, the ancient Jewish method of execution.

Crucifixion was designed not only to kil but to dissuade others from criminal actions. Victims of crucifixion were to be humiliated, often left to hang completely naked. The cross carried a stigma, and Jewish Law said it brought a curse (Galatians 3:13; 5:11). The term excruciating literally means “out of crucifying�; crucifixion was an “excruciating� way to die because it was a very slow and painful means to death. Depending on the circumstance, some people could live for days after being nailed to a cross.

Answering the question of how long Jesus was on the cross is complicated by the fact that two systems of marking time are used in the Gospels. Matthew, Mark, and Luke use the Jewish system of marking time. John uses the Roman system. Using the Jewish system, Mark says, “They crucified him and divided his garments among them, casting lots for them, to decide what each should take. And it was the third hour when they crucified him� (Mark 15:24–25, ESV). According to this, Christ’s crucifixion began at 9:00 A.M.

Also using the Jewish system of marking time, Matthew says that “from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour� (Matthew 27:45, ESV). That is, the darkness lasted from 12:00 noon to 3:00 P.M. This was Jesus’ final three hours on the cross. At the end of that time, “when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit� (Matthew 27:50). After that a Roman soldier made sure of His death (John 19:34), and Jesus’ body was taken down. Jesus had been on the cross from approximately 9:00 A.M. until 3:00 P.M., a total of six hours.

John adds the detail that Jesus’ trial before Pontius Pilate was taking place, according to Roman time, “about the sixth hour� (John 19:14, ESV). Since the Romans started counting their hours at midnight, the “sixth hour� would start at 6:00 A.M.

So, using the Roman system:
“about the sixth hour� = about 6:00 A.M. Jesus is sentenced by Pilate.

Then, using the Jewish system:
“the third hour� = 9:00 A.M. The crucifixion begins.
“the sixth hour� = 12:00 P.M. (noon). Darkness begins.
“the ninth hour� = 3:00 P.M. Jesus dies.

Putting it all together, Jesus’ trial ended about 6:00 A.M. His crucifixion began about three hours later, and He died about six hours after that........

please read the verse like a none Muslim believer would and not as a Muslim like yourself....

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: (Al-Quran 4:157)

the important question is why would Allah trick people in believing it was Jesus on the cross when it wasn't him, to Christians this is the core message of the gospel Jesus died by crucifixion and resurrection and your Qur'an saying Allah trick people in believing it was Jesus but it was not him so Allah started a false religion for no good reason even thou it wasn't true so Christianity is a corruption of false teachings so who triggered this false religion according to your Qur'an Allah is to blame here and miss leading people that's all that came from Allah deception
according to the Qur'an Jesus followers were Muslims to and they were also deceived by Allah so not only does Allah deceive the enemies of Jesus but also his followers as-well
you Muslims got a GOD who not only miss leads enemies of Jesus but his followers of Allah prophet as well how could any one be save if you Muslims follow the teachings of Muhammad and you believe Muhammad preach a GOD who willingly deceives people how do you know Allah isn't doing the something to you.

looking forward of hearing from you again....

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Post #7

Post by Muslim2016 »

[Replying to post 6 by snake]

Hi Snake,

Longer ending of Mark is found in Hundreds of post 4th Century Manuscripts. Name the Scholars who think it existed in the First Century, I would like to check their credentials. You say it doesn't matter as it's all contained in other Gospels. Ok fine, I'll go with that.

We know both Luke and Matthew used Mark as their template and expanded on elements they wished to convey. For example Jesus pbuh the Prophet condemns the Fig Tree and following day, it withers and dies. In Matthews account Jesus pbuh has improved powers and the tree withers instantly. I'm deviating somewhat and would suggest, you don't have to respond to these points and they can be discussed in a later exchange.

Jesus pbuh made clear the sign would be of Jonah pbuh who was alive throughout his ordeal and as you pointed out able to convert the disbelievers of Nineveh, in fact we are told they ALL believed.

I wasn't applying literal 24 hr time periods to account for the 3 Days and 3 Nights.

Even if we took Friday as a complete day/night cycle and did the same for Saturday, you then have the problem of only the day part of Sunday being accounted for, thus 3 Days and 2 Nights.

The bigger problem I see is Jesus pbuh didn't survive his ordeal and had to be resurrected, which is hardly a Miracle for GOD to accomplish. Jesus pbuh does not present himself to the disbelievers post resurrection and turn them ALL into believers as Jonah pbuh did. Rather we read GOD allows him to change his appearance to avoid people and move between places mysteriously. He appears in the midst of people and talks to others who have their eyes veiled, so as not to be able to identify him.

Jesus pbuh appears to his Disciples and tells them don't be scared, contrary to the stories circulating, he isn't 6ft under decaying, rather he was very much flesh and body. He invites them to check his wounds for themselves. We know a resurrected person would look like a Spirit, devoid of flesh and requiring food and drink!

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

You interpret the sign of Jonah pbuh very differently to how it reads, and of course you have to otherwise it becomes a failed Prophecy.

Pilate didn't even want to punish Jesus pbuh and was happy to accept he had died from the Testimony of the Christian Centurion. <<< The Centurion proclaimed,Truly this man was the Son of God., thus a Christian in almost all sense, bar Baptism.

Why do you accuse ALLAH swt of deception? (Qur'an 4:157) We know darkness fell over the land and there was confusion, the Disciples had ALL fled. There were accounts from Disciples that did not believe he had been crucified excluded from the Canon. They knew he didn't want to die, they were with him when he stayed up most of the night praying to GOD to be saved. We know GOD ALWAYS heard his prayers and answered. If GOD can hear and answer the prayers of the faithful, then how much more so for His chosen and loved Prophet?

John 11: 41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you ALWAYS hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.�

If you took Islam's position, then Jesus pbuh didn't fail any Prophecies. First Century Christian accounts have not been preserved, we have a darkness covering the whole area, Jesus pbuh who was able to change appearance and move quickly between locations. This led to confusion and conjecture.

When the largely Pagan Church adopted Jesus pbuh as their Lord and Saviour, they had to make sure he was in the very least equal to their concept of GOD, if not Superior in many respects. Scholars say, early Church Fathers had a hand in editing written oral traditions, producing and editing further works attributed to alleged Disciples. We know none of the Gospels are eyewitness accounts and all are anonymous works. None exist in complete form from the First, Second or Third Century.

Ultimately, Christians choose to interpret the Scripture to fit in with their beliefs and there is nothing wrong with this. Everyone is entitled to define their own faith and follow it accordingly. I'm just showing why we Muslims choose to accept the word of ALLAH swt over the un-preserved collection of letters and books found in the Bible.

I'll let you respond and then move to Point 2.

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Post #8

Post by snake »

Good day.

like i pointed out before.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Because Jesus says here that Jonah was alive in the belly of the big fish, Islam claims Jesus did not die and therefore was not not crucified.

The comparison Jesus made was to the number of days and nights. He states nothing about being literally alive or dead, as this was not part of his illustration. However, in both cases, each returned to life in a manner of speaking: Jonah to Nineveh and Jesus to Jerusalem (and eventually his Father); Jonah from the belly of a whale and Jesus literally from the dead and the tomb.

There are many differences between a tomb and a huge fish. The fish is alive, the tomb is not. The dead remains of what the whale had already eaten were present, but were not present with Jesus in the tomb. The whale was in the sea, the tomb in Jerusalem. Jesus was buried in the ground and not a fish. However, none of these things were what Jesus was referring to. He said, "FOR AS Jonah was three days and three nights," and not AS Jonah was in a fish's gastric juices.

The leaders of Israel asked for a sign (Matt. 12:38). Signs point a certain direction, have certain limitations, and are not meant to be exact representations. The crescent moon and star is an internationally recognized symbol of the faith of Islam (Qur'an 2:189). The color green has a special place in Islam as seen in the decoration of mosques, the bindings of Qur'ans, and in the flags of various Muslim countries. According to Islam the color green symbolizes nature and life. Are these signs and colors literally Islam? Or is it that these signs and colors have particular meaning(s)? For example, for some in the Islamic faith, the five points of the star reveal the five pillars of Islam. Signs and symbols have built-in limitations as designed by their authors.

Even the three days and three nights are not to be taken literally. It was a figurative expression of speech, which is a Jewish way of reckoning time. Past days were counted inclusively with the first and last portion of those days each being counted as full days even though only a portion of those days had actually been involved in the event.

John 2:19-22 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." They replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

1 Samuel 30:11-13
David Destroys the Amalekites

David and his men reached Ziklag on the third day. Now the Amalekites had raided the Negev and Ziklag. They had attacked Ziklag and burned it, and had taken captive the women and everyone else in it, both young and old. They killed none of them, but carried them off as they went on their way.

When David and his men reached Ziklag, they found it destroyed by fire and their wives and sons and daughters taken captive. So David and his men wept aloud until they had no strength left to weep. David’s two wives had been captured Ahinoam of Jezreel and Abigail, the widow of Nabal of Carmel. David was greatly distressed because the men were talking of stoning him; each one was bitter in spirit because of his sons and daughters. But David found strength in the Lord his God.

Then David said to Abiathar the priest, the son of Ahimelek, “Bring me the ephod.� Abiathar brought it to him, and David inquired of the Lord, “Shall I pursue this raiding party? Will I overtake them?�

Pursue them he answered. You will certainly overtake them and succeed in the rescue.

David and the six hundred men with him came to the Besor Valley, where some stayed behind. Two hundred of them were too exhausted to cross the valley, but David and the other four hundred continued the pursuit.

They found an Egyptian in a field and brought him to David. They gave him water to drink and food to eat part of a cake of pressed figs and two cakes of raisins. He ate and was revived, for he had not eaten any food or drunk any water for three days and three nights.

13 David asked him,Who do you belong to? Where do you come from.

see also Esther 5;1........

1 Corinthians 15 this were written 20 years after Jesus Crucifixion and our earliest account on Jesus resurrection (Paul saying)

The Resurrection of Christ

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Here Paul gives us a list off people who are still alive and if people are in doubt they could check it out with the eye witnesses who were still around.

If we take a look at Sura 19;33 and Sura 4:157 we see a great contradiction ere so its painfully obvious that either the bible are the Qur'an doesn't have it facts right bolt cont be RIGHT...

Sura 19:33 states: "So peace is upon me [Jesus] the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life.

Sura 4;157 states And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain...

Muslims will respond by saying that they at least know that Jesus didn’t die, and that they are sure of this. But how can they be sure? Muhammad couldn’t even read, let alone perform a careful historical investigation. All of the first century evidence is unanimous in reporting Jesus’ death by crucifixion. Virtually all Historical Jesus scholars and New Testament scholars agree that Jesus died on the cross. Indeed, many non-Christian scholars consider Jesus’ crucifixion and death to be an indisputable fact.......

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Post #9

Post by snake »

You also mention that our scriptures (Christians) have not been perfectly preserved lets take a look below:

The Qur'an is a control Manuscript text the BIBLE is a freely transmitted text.

The bible have a wide range of text witnesses coming from all over saying the same thing you would know what the person actually have said.(by doing a careful investigation).
We have 5500 Greek New Testaments Manuscripts, 10000 Latin Manuscripts, 8000 Coptic Manuscripts, 36000 Quotation Manuscripts(we can compile the hole New Testament if we only had the 5500 Greek New Testaments Manuscripts or 10000 Latin Manuscripts or 8000 Coptic Manuscripts or 36000 Quotation Manuscripts ALONE) ...
People would write down the gospel in communities to have a copy for themselves some gospels were sent to other communities as well.
multiple authors would write in multiple places and were sent to different people in other places (books were sent) this means not one person are group were in control of these scriptures at any point of time in history if a person want to make changes in these text would be imposable because there would be already manuscripts in the dessert and it would have been picked we can trust the gospels Christians were executed by the Romans and the Romans were destroying all the scriptures they could find to stop the christian movement ,but Christians love their Jesus and wanted others to know so a copying were going on to spread the gospels (Good News) people that time was not professional scribes and they new it, mistakes happens when they started to copy The Gospels to hand to others in process of doing so the scribe would count the number of words on a page count the number of lines words were check and so on, that's a job of a professional scribe other option is to make the copying go much faster the scribe would read it out loud and the people would write it down what ever the scribe are saying in doing this many mistakes were found when writing long hours eyes get weak ,hands get tired also and its understandable GOD don't appear when the scribe is about to make a mistake and throw caffeine in the scribe face to wake up
the more ancient copies we have the batter the less we have the weaker to find out what the person is actually saying are said so to have all these new testament manuscript is to verify what is true and what is false saying stories of witnesses but if we only have one copy and nothing to compare it to how we gonna know what the person actually have said you have going to accept because that's all there is.
In all these manuscript their are very few miss spellings of words and variances that there is in New Testaments Manuscripts...

The Qur'an is a Control Manuscript Text
If you have a control manuscript that are control by a group of people are a person you wouldn't know what the person have actually have said.If they decide to change the text and destroy the original text rewrite a new one you have to believed in it because you have no choice and nothing to compare it with (text),like Muslims often claim the Qur'an have been the same all these years but when you study the Qur'an you see its not true like example:Quranic verses stop after Muhammad death shortly after Muhammad death abu bakr needed to suppress a rebellion and has send many huffaz (people who have memorize the Qur'an verses portions) to fight at battles of yamama many of these huffaz died.
abu bakr decided that it was time to gather what have been remain of the Qur'an to prevent anymore verses getting lost he put Zaid to this task to compiled the Qur'an after he had completed the task the Qur'an stayed in the possess off abu bakr till he died it was the pass down to Caliph Umar when Umar died it was given to hafsa widow of Muhammad (sahih Al bukahari 4986) Uthman ordered that hafsa copy of the Qur'an along with all the known textual materials should be gathered together so that an official version might be compiled .this was done Uthman sent to every Muslims province a copy (book) what they had copy and ordered that the original Quranic verses should be BURN ( sahih al-bukhari 4987)
disputes among Muslims scholars (disciples) not all Muslims approved of the new Qur'an indeed some of Muhammad top teaches rejected Zaid version of the Qur'an
Ibn Maud went so far as calling the final edition of the Qur'an a deception he said the people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an i (love) like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Muhammad) whom i love more then Zayd ibn thabit (Ibn Sad kitab al-tabagat al-kabir vol 2 page 444)
Umair said ubayy was the best of us in the recitation of the Qur'an yet we leave some of what he recites.Ubayy says i have taken it from the mouth of Allah messenger and will not leave it for any whatever.

When ibn Umar -son of the second Muslim Caliph heard people declaring that they knew the entire Qur'an he said to them let none of you say i have learn the whole of the Qur'an for how does he know what the whole of it is when much have disappeared let him say i have learn what is extended thereof (Abu Ubaid kitab Fadail-al-quran).
also in the Qur'an was this verse about stoning Muslims would stone a person for committing adultery but this verse is in the Gedith it use to be in the Qur'an but according to the history of Islam Aisha said a goat came in and ate that verse (stoning verse).

So here we see already that Muslims claiming that the Qur'an have been perfectly preserved don't know the history of their Qur'an and since it has been control by a group of people who have disputes amongst each other arguing what should've been in and texts that have been left out *** well.

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Post #10

Post by ttruscott »

snake wrote: Good day.

like i pointed out before.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Because Jesus says here that Jonah was alive in the belly of the big fish, Islam claims Jesus did not die and therefore was not not crucified.
Jonah died: Jonah 2:2 He said: "In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From deep in the realm of the dead [Sheol; שְ��֛וֹל] I called for help, and you listened to my cry.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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