Matthew S - Islam in General

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Matthew S Islam
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Matthew S - Islam in General

Post #1

Post by Matthew S Islam »

Assalamu alaykum - Greetings to everyone

Didn't want to derail the thread in the Christian forum so I decided to create a general thread in this section.

Elijah John
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Re: Matthew S - Islam in General

Post #21

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that all other religions, Christian or not, comprise "the Whore of Babylon". All, except for the Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses. That goes much further than saying your's is right and everyone else's is wrong. By using that epithet, you're not just saying they're wrong, but that they are evil.

Do you have any idea how obnoxious and offensive (and quite possibly untrue) that attitude is?

When you say that "God only accepts true worship" do you suppose that means all the doctrines of the WTS of JWs? If that's the case, it would seem that JWs need to be pretty darn sure that they are not wasting their time with their method of worship lest they be in error in any point of doctrine, preaching or procedure and worshiping God in vain.

Unless, or course YHVH God is far more concerned with a humble and contrite attitude of heart* (remember the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican) than He is about getting all of the details of one's doctrine "correct". And more merciful than you folks ever imagined.

I don't mean to single out JW's per se. Your "us only" attitude is shared by other Fundamentalists, including Evangelical Trinitarians and Muslims, though your dogmas differ.

*Perhaps THAT is what is really meant by "true worship".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Matthew S - Islam in General

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 20 by Elijah John]

Creature (sorry typo) "creator".

My bad, I didn't proofread.

INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS ... 81#p826681

"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Matthew S Islam
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Post #23

Post by Matthew S Islam »

Is this denigration of Judaism, a fellow, Abrahamic monotheistic faith, fellow "peoples of the Book" the official position of Islam? Or just your opinion and that of some Islamic theologians.
I think my approach might have threw you off a bit and I apologize for that. You're right, Jews and Christians are People of the Book and that's not meaningless within our tradition. However my intention was to simply lay out what I felt were the most critical points of contention between the faiths.

All Sunni scholars are of the view that modern forms of "Judaism" and "Christianity" are heretical and blasphemous. The Jews and Christians are considered to be misguided disbelievers who are following false religions.

We believe that Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) were truthful Messengers of God who received and conveyed Divine revelations to their communities. The Messengers of God are religiously infallible; meaning that it's impossible for them to teach falsehoods. Everything Moses/Jesus received and taught were theologically accurate and authoritative. However, this in no way suggests that mainstream understandings of Judaism or Christianity are consistent with either of those Prophets. For example, if Moses(pbuh) was here right now, we don't believe that he'd theologically validate modern Judaism, nor would he approve of the spiritual condition of the Children of the Israel. Likewise had Jesus(pbuh) appeared before us, we don't believe that he would validate the New Testament scriptures or the trinity. Hence, from our theological perspective, both Judaism and Christianity are false religions that are leading people astray.
Would it have been better for Jews and Judaism to embrace Jesus as their Messiah and worship him as a god, as Trinitarian Christians do? Are Christians accursed of God as well, according to Islam?
No. It would have been appropriate for the Jews to embrace Jesus as the Messiah whilst he was alive. Not only should they have believed in him, but they were expected to assist him in his cause with their wealth and their lives. Unfortunately, not only did they refuse to support him, but they formed desperate allegations against him to have him crucified.

The question that comes to mind is: If Jesus actually was the Jewish Messiah, and if the Jews rejected and killed their Messiah, then what does that mean for the Children of Israel and their relationship with God?

Believe it or not, I've read Jewish articles which argued that it doesn't really matter if Jesus was the Messiah. With all due respect, that may be one of the most arrogant assertions I've ever heard!
I sincerely think that Islam's proposal is the most rational and fair: If Jesus(pbuh) was the Messiah and the Jews murdered him unjustly, then the Jews are blasphemers who have failed to meet the expectations of God.


As mentioned earlier, Christianity has drastic scriptural and theological problems. The social and religious conditions from which Christianity developed was not conducive for the flourishing of a healthy religious tradition.
However, the best course of action following the 'crucifixion' would have been to follow the path of James, Peter and the rest of the Jewish-Christians. Which was to accept Jesus as the human Messiah who will one day return and fulfill the Will of God.
Believers, Jews, Sabeans, and Christians-whoever believes in God and in the Last Day and does what is right, will have nothing to fear or regret.

Sunni Muslims are of the view that these verses apply to the Jews, Christians and Sabeans who preceded the advent of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). Allah is reassuring us of His Justice and Full Knowledge concerning the condition of our God-fearing predecessors. The unexpected rejection of the Jewish Messiah along with its subsequent crucifixion may have led our predecessors to false conclusions. With this verse, Allah declares salvation for the righteous believers who believed in God and the Resurrection, regardless of their faith -- And God knows best.
(and what are "Sabeans"? ;))
From what I remember, they were an Iraq-based monotheistic religion associated with the Prophet Jonah(?). I'm not sure if they're relevant in this day and age. However, they were well-known during the era of Muhammad(pbuh), as we know from his biography (Seerah).
In spite of that passage, many Muslims seem to think Christians are damned for their error, and some Christians think Muslims are damned for their error. Judaism, however, considers both daughter religions, ethical, Abrahamic monotheistic religions. In Judaism, it is not necessary to become a Jew in order to be "saved". (Inherit a portion in the world to come). Good Muslims and good Christians are rewarded as well.

Seems to me that among the three, Jews and Judaism has the moral highground here, and the most reasonable position.
God has elevated man above all of His creation with the ability to reason and truth-seek. However, He has also placed within us lowly/greedy desires in order to separate those who are sincerely devoted, from those who are biased, ungrateful and impatient.

Sure, perhaps you could say that Judaism has the 'softest' opinion between the Abrahamic faiths concerning Judgement and the Afterlife. However just because it is the 'softest' doesn't mean that it is true, nor does softness necessarily make something morally superior.

1) The Jewish conception of Judgement and the Afterlife has been rendered obsolete because the religion is outdated

Muslims believe that the Jews were God's religious agents on Earth. Their Scriptures were authoritative for the most part and God blessed them with a succession of Prophets. Within that historical context, it was true, God did not expect the gentiles to convert to Judaism to attain salvation--we had different roles, laws and expectations.
However, following the Jewish debacle, God Has revealed a universal Prophet and religion which He expects all of mankind--including the People of the Book--to convert to if they desire salvation.

"Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account." [3:19]

"O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent." [5:19]
Also, most Jews are not awaiting a literal Messiah anymore, only a "Messianic age" of peace and justice. And certainly not a "false" messiah, as you seem to be accusing.
Could you elaborate on this? Why are they doing this now instead of before? As a believer in Jesus' Messiahship, I can't help but feel that the Jews are tapping for submission here.

Regardless of what they 'believe' right now, once the Dajjal (false Messiah) arrives, they will be forced to accept him. In fact, all non-believers will be persuaded by his Satanic temptations during the End Times.

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Re: Matthew S - Islam in General

Post #24

Post by snake »

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

Hi there I am a Christian would like to no if anyone want to have a Discussion on any Topic let me no.

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