Rejecting Catholicism???

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WinePusher

Rejecting Catholicism???

Post #1

Post by WinePusher »

I notice there is a pretty large amount of people who belong to the "Rejected Catholicism" usergroup?

1) Would you please list your reasons as to why you rejected catholicism? If you don't want to, that's fine.

Braveheart
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Post #31

Post by Braveheart »

Slopeshoulder wrote:
Braveheart wrote:
Slopeshoulder wrote:Oh lord, it's like listening to a 4 year old to opine about a symphony or a legal decision. :lol: Cute for a minute, then shut that kid up.
Oh I'm sorry, am I preaching to much?
No, you're showing shoody reasoning and ignorance. Too much to detail here.
Or am I just bearing down on your conscience?
Absolutely NOT!! You are however tickling my fnny bone.
Are you coping with the fact your a bad Catholic in a new way yet?
How dare you?
Do you really think your catechistic-fetishistic orientation has earned the right to judge me, a seminary grad? Do you know how ignorant, arrogant, and bigoted you seem? Va Napoli!
or are you still just a Catholic in name?
See above.
I could ask you the same question, implying that you're (spelled with an apostraphe BTW) actually a totalitarian neurotic fascist and fool who perverts catholicism like bin laden perverted islam, but notice I don't. I accept that you are a catholic. And I advise you do the same.
But I'm sure I should just shut up now.
Great idea!
Everybody listen to Pope Slope. ;)
Good idea.
And now make this the last time you use that insulting joke. I don't call you chickenheart do I?
Oh, and I'll have you know I'm 5, not 4. :)
I can believe it.
Okay, I went through Few's reasons for rejecting Catholicism and debunked them to my best ability, why don't you go through mine and debunk them to your best ability. You seem to find fault with them. And if you care to look into the Catholic faith more than you apparently have, you would find you do fall under the bad Catholic
I am not afraid... I was born to do this.
Joan of Arc :2gun:

Peace if possible, truth at all costs.
Martin Luther

The Church of God she will not bend her knees
To the gods of this world though they promise her peace
She stands her ground
Stands firm on the Rock
Watch their walls tumble down when she lives out His love
Rich Mullins

Braveheart
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Post #32

Post by Braveheart »

Are you coping with the fact your a bad Catholic in a new way yet?
How dare you?
Do you really think your catechistic-fetishistic orientation has earned the right to judge me, a seminary grad? Do you know how ignorant, arrogant, and bigoted you seem? Va Napoli!

How dare I? Let's see...oh yes! Well, no offense but you don't exactly fall under the good Catholic list, now do you. For example, you support the use of and use contraception. According to the Catholic Church, that's a mortal sin
or are you still just a Catholic in name?
See above.
I could ask you the same question, implying that you're (spelled with an apostraphe BTW) actually a totalitarian neurotic fascist and fool who perverts catholicism like bin laden perverted islam, but notice I don't. I accept that you are a catholic. And I advise you do the same.

Everybody listen to Pope Slope. ;)
Good idea.
And now make this the last time you use that insulting joke. I don't call you chickenheart do I?
I am not afraid... I was born to do this.
Joan of Arc :2gun:

Peace if possible, truth at all costs.
Martin Luther

The Church of God she will not bend her knees
To the gods of this world though they promise her peace
She stands her ground
Stands firm on the Rock
Watch their walls tumble down when she lives out His love
Rich Mullins

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Post #33

Post by TomD »

Well, as a newbie here, and a cradle Catholic who 'wandered off' then found his way back again (thanks to the Sophia Perennis), thought I'd pop in with some comments:

* Veneration of idols (relics)
The definition of venerate is 'regard with greets respect' — so in that respect yes, we do have great respect for eikons of all natures, and of course a relic is substantially closer to its source (if not indeed the actual substance of the source) — so any eikon, be it pictorial, sculptural, etc, is held in great regard … but it is not worshipped, it is an aid in the focus of thought (or prayer).
Anything else and we would logically be guilty of idolatry.

* Mary died sinless
Scripture would support that idea in the angelic salutation in Luke. Mary was human, and subject, as are we all, to the 'human condition' that is generally termed 'original sin'. So we're not saying Mary was without sin, nor that she could not sin, but like us all, was redeemed by her Son. It's not that she could not sin, but rather, because of her faith, she did not.

The Church Fathers, for example, were divided on the matter, but the Latin Church has believed from time immoral that Our Lady was assumed into heaven, and the Orthodox Patriarchates believe in the Dormition, which is essentially the same thing. (Even Martin Luther believed it.)

It's quite possible that many people, given the chance to profess their faith and who hold a true and heart-felt contrition for the sins they have committed, die sinless?

* Mary died a virgin
OK. I happen to believe it. Again, this was a tradition of the Church before Scripture, so we can only assume the information came from the mouth of Our Lady herself … who else would know?

* Prayer to Mary
If you believe the dead no longer exist, then OK, but I believe the 'dead' live on ... and I ask for their help and intercession, the same as I ask the living. Mary is the Mother of the Church and the Ark of the New Covenant and, as Scripture states quite explicitly, not without influence with her Son.

* Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ
That's a common error, co-mediatrix does not imply equality with Christ, but rather points to the dignity accorded man in that God allows, indeed invites, man to co-operate with Him in His own salvation. This status is a gratuitous gift, as there's nothing we, nor Mary, nor anyone else can say or do to change the will of God or His plan for man's redemption — but then Our Lord did say that what we bind on earth will be bound in heaven, so that implies something ... within that it would appear there is a 'desire' in God that man should come to God because he chooses to, not because he's under any duress (thus threats of hellfire and damnation probably annoy God as much as they annoy me).

In that sense we are all co-mediatrix, in that we are called to love God, as the Shema Israel and the New Covenant states, and called to labour for our own salvation, and the salvation of others.

Love cannot be coerced.

* Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)
Again, I happen to believe in the Communion of the Living and the Dead ...

* Papacy
Well, Jesus said it, so there you go. How it functions is another matter, I grant you.

* Papal succession
Well again that's logical, and founded on Our Lord's own words. He said He would be with His church until the end of time, not just for one generation. If there's no successions, how can there be continuity?

* Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"
Why? Christ is the Shepherd, and Our Lord called Peter to that role three times, expunging his three rejections of his Lord.

* Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra
Depends if you believe in the Holy Spirit. I agree I think it's sad that such a belief had to be dogmatically defined, but again, if Our Lord is with His Church for all time, and not even hell can prevail against Her, then there must be an element of infallibility.

* Transubstantiation
That's a 'Mystery' of Christ ... I agree it is often poorly explained, but the more we learn about Quantum phenomena, the more it becomes understandable.

* Purgatory
Depends upon how you understand purgatory. There will be a judgement, and if judgement, then there must be degree, else justice is blind?

* Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)
No we can't ... that's not what penance is about. Penance is about showing contrition, and re-engaging with the community.

* Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members
Why not? She wrote the Scripture ...

* Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people
Then what was the point of the Cross?

* Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church
Hmmm … that's not what Catholics, or at least the Catechism, says.

* Sacred Tradition is authoritative even when it contradicts Scripture, thus elevating it above Scripture
It doesn't contradict Scripture ... and do remember the Tradition was the source of the Scriptures. Paul's letters, for example, were not written as Scripture, but as letters, which were preserved by the recipients, copied and distributed as sound teaching and indeed revelatory … only latwer were they considered Scripture.

A lot of the arguments are simple statements of 'I don't believe ...' — OK, that's fine, but that's no proof nor argument of anything, other than the limits of your own credibility.

I do agree that for Catholics, living in the post-Enlightenment, post-Modern era, governed by the Philosophy of Relativism, an almost total blindness to the language of symbol, the 'blind faith' assumption that the empirical sciences are the infallible and unassailable source of all truth, the Mysteries of Christianity are hardly seen, let alone understood.

I rejected Catholicism until I sought out what the doctrine actually says ... since then I have been wedded to it as the most optimistic of all religions, the most far-sighted, and the most soundly-argued.

God bless,

Thomas

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Post #34

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

TomD wrote:* Mary died sinless
Scripture would support that idea in the angelic salutation in Luke. Mary was human, and subject, as are we all, to the 'human condition' that is generally termed 'original sin'. So we're not saying Mary was without sin, nor that she could not sin, but like us all, was redeemed by her Son. It's not that she could not sin, but rather, because of her faith, she did not.

The Church Fathers, for example, were divided on the matter, but the Latin Church has believed from time immoral that Our Lady was assumed into heaven, and the Orthodox Patriarchates believe in the Dormition, which is essentially the same thing. (Even Martin Luther believed it.)

It's quite possible that many people, given the chance to profess their faith and who hold a true and heart-felt contrition for the sins they have committed, die sinless?
Although no longer a Catholic, my religious education is recent and comprehensive and I believe I know the religion very well. The Immaculate Conception, the doctrine that Mary had no original sin, being already redeemed at the moment of conception, is in fact an Article of Faith.
The Immaculate Conception
490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace". In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".
493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature". By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm
Although not part of the formal definition of the Article of Faith the 1854 Papal Bull that declares Mary free from original sin, repeatedly refers to her as free from all taint of sin.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
TomD wrote:* Mary died a virgin
OK. I happen to believe it. Again, this was a tradition of the Church before Scripture, so we can only assume the information came from the mouth of Our Lady herself … who else would know?
Again an Article of Faith. Mary is held to have remained a virgin even while giving birth. Since she was free of original sin and the pain of childbirth was part of the heritage of that sin, the birth was miraculous.
Mary - "ever-virgin"
499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".
500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary". They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.
501 Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love."
http://www.scborromeo.org/mobileccc/p122a3p2.htm
This doctrine is of great antiquity, going back to at least the 5th century.
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/document ... Dogmas.htm

Other Articles of Faith concerning Mary are that she is the Mother of God – no surprise! – and that she was assumed into heaven bodily at her death. See the above link.

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Post #35

Post by TomD »

ThatGirlAgain wrote:Although no longer a Catholic, my religious education is recent and comprehensive and I believe I know the religion very well. The Immaculate Conception, the doctrine that Mary had no original sin, being already redeemed at the moment of conception, is in fact an Article of Faith.
Yes it is, and it's also doctrine that she was baptised, as you have yourself quoted from the CCC:
490 To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace". In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace. (italics my emphasis)
So she was baptised by the Holy Spirit ... "by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin." (CCC 491).

By virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ refers to the Cross, so in that sense Mary was the first person baptised according to the Trinitarian formula, 'ahead of time', necessary for her role as Theotokos.

God bless,

Thomas

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Post #36

Post by De Maria »

realthinker wrote:
Scripture provides no "evidence" of anything. It suggests things, but that's not the same. I guess though you're invoking the believer's acceptance of scripture of evidence.

Still, Does scripture really have evidence that Mary was sinless?
Sacred Tradition says she died sinless. Scripture does not say that she ever sinned.
[*]Mary died a virgin
1. Scripture calls Mary a Virgin and provides no evidence that she did not die a virgin.
2. The existence of so called "brothers" of Christ can be traced to the other Mary, the "sister" of the Mother of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.
I don't think you can claim Scripture as evidence when such significant ideas are held in dispute.
[/quote]

Again, Sacred Tradition is explicit and Scripture does not contradict Sacred Tradition. It is those who discarded Sacred Tradition, which is the foundation and root of Scripture, it is they who have lost the key to understanding the word of God in the New Testament. Because Jesus Christ did not write any Scripture. Not one word. He established a Church and passed down Sacred Tradition.
[*]Prayer to Mary
Logically inferred from Scripture. Prayer means "request". And Jesus, being Mary's Son, obviously requested of her everything from a mother's love to bodily sustenance and clothing.
[*]Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ
From Scripture we are explicitly told that everyone of us is a co worker with God:
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Mary, then, is chief among the CO labourers, because of her unique position. She, amongst all of us, brought the Son of God into the world.
What of Scripture suggests Mary has such significance?
The fact that she is the Mother of God.
[*]Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)
This one is quite puzzling to me. Since Jesus said:
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Therefore, believers in Christ never die. BELIEVEST THOU THIS?
Then why does the Catholic Church have funeral mass and routinely pray for the souls of the departed? Sounds like the church recognized death in a rather obvious fashion.
The Church recognizes that those who die in Christ remain in Christ. The Funeral Mass repeats that truth, over and over.

If you do, then it should be easy to realize that those who die in Christ remain in the body of Christ and those in the body of Christ belong to one another and are concerned for one another.

If not, well...?
[*]Papacy
Jesus Christ assigned Simon as the Rock upon which He built His Church. In giving Simon His name (i.e. Rock), He signified that Simon would lead His Church. He then proceeded to give Simon the Keys to the Kingdom, essentially empowering him to save souls (Matt 16:18-19)
[*]Papal succession
Christ established many offices.
Please point out scripture's reference to these offices. I read little in the way of organization building in the Bible.
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Acts 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Every Apostolic office was to continue in perpetuity. There is no evidence in Scripture that the offices which Jesus established were to end with the death of the one first assigned to that office. Nor does that make sense.
[*]Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"
Essentially, Christ gave Simon His office.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Christ is our Shepherd. But He commanded Simon to feed His Sheep. Effectively assigning Simon as His Vicar or Viceroy, or Vice Pastor if you will.
[*]Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra
This is why he has the keys to the Kingdom. Wherein Heaven confirms everything he binds and looses on earth.
[*]Transubstantiation
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Sounds like transubstantiation to me.
Sounds like metaphor to me. I find it rather presumptuous to make anything more of it than that.
I don't follow you. I follow the infallible Church which teaches the wisdom of God even in the heavens:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
[*]Purgatory
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
[*]Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[*]Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members
Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[*]Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people
All are alive unto God. And the Mass is simply Jesus' reformulation of the Passover sacrifice.
[*]Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church
That is true. But not just those within the Catholic Church will be saved:
Acts 10:33-35 (King James Version)

33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
[*]Sacred Tradition is authoritative even when it contradicts Scripture, thus elevating it above Scripture[/list]
Sacred Tradition does not contradict Scripture.
According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic.
That doesn't make it true, nor the Catholic Church's position on it significant.
If the Church teaches it, it is true. And the Catholic Church's position is significant because she was established by Jesus Christ in order to lead His flock to heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Post #37

Post by Slopeshoulder »

When did closed-system totalitarian circular magical extremism come to pass or reasoned debate? I know many catholic clergy and scholars, as well as parishoners, who would recoil from this approach to debate and this understanding of the church. Indeed, in 50 years, I've never met one wouldn't. Although I know there out there/here.

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Post #38

Post by S-word »

fewwillfindit wrote:I belonged to the group at first, but decided to remove it because I want to be defined by what I am for rather than what I am against.

My reasons for rejecting Catholicism (there are probably some that I am forgetting):
  • Veneration of idols (relics)
  • Mary died sinless
  • Mary died a virgin
  • Prayer to Mary
  • Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ
  • Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)
  • Papacy
  • Papal succession
  • Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"
  • Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra
  • Transubstantiation
  • Purgatory
  • Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)
  • Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members
  • Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people
  • Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church
  • Sacred Tradition is authoritative even when it contradicts Scripture, thus elevating it above Scripture
According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic. These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible, and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

I am answering because the nature of the OP seems to be merely asking "why" and didn't seem like it was intended for debate. I've debated this recently and am a bit burned out on it for the time being. It seems like debating it is futile anyhow, as neither side, since the Reformation, has shown any intention of budging an inch. It is what it is, and certain people are attracted to one or the other and almost seem predisposed to it.
And to your 17 reasons for rejecting Catholicism and it's Spirit/words/teachings, I would add, her refusal to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being born of the seed of Adam, and her unbiblical teaching of some woman who remaind a virgin after the act by which the child was conceived in her womb.

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Post #39

Post by S-word »

De Maria wrote:
realthinker wrote:
Scripture provides no "evidence" of anything. It suggests things, but that's not the same. I guess though you're invoking the believer's acceptance of scripture of evidence.

Still, Does scripture really have evidence that Mary was sinless?
Sacred Tradition says she died sinless. Scripture does not say that she ever sinned.
[*]Mary died a virgin
1. Scripture calls Mary a Virgin and provides no evidence that she did not die a virgin.
2. The existence of so called "brothers" of Christ can be traced to the other Mary, the "sister" of the Mother of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.
I don't think you can claim Scripture as evidence when such significant ideas are held in dispute.
Again, Sacred Tradition is explicit and Scripture does not contradict Sacred Tradition. It is those who discarded Sacred Tradition, which is the foundation and root of Scripture, it is they who have lost the key to understanding the word of God in the New Testament. Because Jesus Christ did not write any Scripture. Not one word. He established a Church and passed down Sacred Tradition.
[*]Prayer to Mary
Logically inferred from Scripture. Prayer means "request". And Jesus, being Mary's Son, obviously requested of her everything from a mother's love to bodily sustenance and clothing.
[*]Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ
From Scripture we are explicitly told that everyone of us is a co worker with God:
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Mary, then, is chief among the CO labourers, because of her unique position. She, amongst all of us, brought the Son of God into the world.
What of Scripture suggests Mary has such significance?
The fact that she is the Mother of God.
[*]Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)
This one is quite puzzling to me. Since Jesus said:
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Therefore, believers in Christ never die. BELIEVEST THOU THIS?
Then why does the Catholic Church have funeral mass and routinely pray for the souls of the departed? Sounds like the church recognized death in a rather obvious fashion.
The Church recognizes that those who die in Christ remain in Christ. The Funeral Mass repeats that truth, over and over.

If you do, then it should be easy to realize that those who die in Christ remain in the body of Christ and those in the body of Christ belong to one another and are concerned for one another.

If not, well...?
[*]Papacy
Jesus Christ assigned Simon as the Rock upon which He built His Church. In giving Simon His name (i.e. Rock), He signified that Simon would lead His Church. He then proceeded to give Simon the Keys to the Kingdom, essentially empowering him to save souls (Matt 16:18-19)
[*]Papal succession
Christ established many offices.
Please point out scripture's reference to these offices. I read little in the way of organization building in the Bible.
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Acts 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Every Apostolic office was to continue in perpetuity. There is no evidence in Scripture that the offices which Jesus established were to end with the death of the one first assigned to that office. Nor does that make sense.
[*]Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"
Essentially, Christ gave Simon His office.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Christ is our Shepherd. But He commanded Simon to feed His Sheep. Effectively assigning Simon as His Vicar or Viceroy, or Vice Pastor if you will.
[*]Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra
This is why he has the keys to the Kingdom. Wherein Heaven confirms everything he binds and looses on earth.
[*]Transubstantiation
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Sounds like transubstantiation to me.
Sounds like metaphor to me. I find it rather presumptuous to make anything more of it than that.
I don't follow you. I follow the infallible Church which teaches the wisdom of God even in the heavens:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
[*]Purgatory
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
[*]Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[*]Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members
Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[*]Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people
All are alive unto God. And the Mass is simply Jesus' reformulation of the Passover sacrifice.
[*]Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church
That is true. But not just those within the Catholic Church will be saved:
Acts 10:33-35 (King James Version)

33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
[*]Sacred Tradition is authoritative even when it contradicts Scripture, thus elevating it above Scripture[/list]
Sacred Tradition does not contradict Scripture.
According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic.
That doesn't make it true, nor the Catholic Church's position on it significant.
If the Church teaches it, it is true. And the Catholic Church's position is significant because she was established by Jesus Christ in order to lead His flock to heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria
The church you refer to was establised by the non-christian King Constantine in 325 AD, some 300 years after the apolstolic church of Jesus had been established.

The universal church was established in the town of Nicaea from a hodge podge group of churches which called themselves christians.

Constantine, who was the unorthodox champion of that extraordinary assortment of differing bodies that called themselves christians, finally became sick to the stomach of their constant bickering, and the insults that were being hurled at each other, so he summoned all the leaders of those bichering bodies that had evolved from the teaching of the anti-christ, which teaching refused to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being born of the seed of Adam.

They were commanded to attend the first ever, "World Council" at Nicaea in 325 AD, and it was there, where under the dominating presence and unspoken threats of Constantine, your universal church was established, which universal church that refuses to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being born of the seed of Adam, has spread her deceptive teachings throughout the entire world.

1st letter of John 4:1-3; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.�

2nd letter of John verses 7-10;.“Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.�

As Adam is the origin of the human race and the Father of every human being who has ever, or ever will walk this earth, where do you suppose that we would find today, a teaching that has been spread throughout the entire world, which refuses to acknowledge that Jesus came as a "human being?"
Last edited by S-word on Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

postroad
Prodigy
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Post #40

Post by postroad »

My biggest problem with the whole concept is that institutionalized teaching still exists at all.

The concept of divine revelation to select individuals only was something that was to be eliminated in the new covenant.

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