Next Marian Dogma

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ThroughRightlyDeclare
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Next Marian Dogma

Post #1

Post by ThroughRightlyDeclare »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I know that there are at least 8 Marian dogmas imposed by the Catholic Church.

How does these dogmas affect Christocentricity of Roman Catholicism?

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Lemonboo
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Post #2

Post by Lemonboo »

Don't non-Catholic faiths also impose Marian dogmas? I mean, most Christians still believe Mary was at the very least, the Mother of Jesus, correct? Does that effect the "Christocentricity"?

Like it or not, God the Father chose to give us his only Son THROUGH Mary! She is an extremely important figure in Jesus' life as well as in ours. :) If anything to neglect Mary is to neglect the Son of God, since God chose to give us Christ through her...you cannot pick and choose.

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Mary: Co-Redemtrix and Mediatrix of All Grace

Post #3

Post by ST_JB »

I believe the next possible Marian Dogma is Mary: Co-Redemtrix and Mediatrix of All Grace. I guess this title will have its hard time passing the strict guidance of the Congregation of the Holy Office, which safeguards the Faith and Moral of the Universal Church. Every single issue about Faith and Moral is directly handled by this congregation which is headed by the Pope.

The title itself presupposes the equality of the BVM to Christ. For the simplest reason that only Christ is the redeemer and mediator between God & man, thus equaly justified as the only mediator of grace. And to equate Mary to Christ by giving her the title would definitely clutter the teaching of the Universal Church.
Not unless we elevate the BVM to a higher level than she is now, which I guess is a lot more difficult to justify considering the teaching of the Church about Mary and the Holy Trinity. Or we can argue that the BVM is part of the Trinitarian God which I guess will definitely draw heavy opposition more than we can imagine.

In every Dogma of the BVM there is always a corresponding justification in the standpoint of Christian Teaching of the Universal Church. That such belief is essential to the Christian faith. Otherwise, the need to declare it as a Dogma can be more wanting.

Questions for debate:

1. Does the title equate the BVM to Christ?
2. If yes, what is her nature then?
3. If no, how can she be a co-Redemtrix and Mediatrix of all grace, then?
4. Is it really necessary to define this title as Marian Dogma? Why?
5. What are the effects or impact of such title to the Christendom as a whole?
6. Is it essential to Christian faith? Explain.

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Lemonboo
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Post #4

Post by Lemonboo »

Both of those are very very old titles given to our Blessed Mother, and tie directly in with our current Sacred Tradition. Co-Redemptrix is already included as part of the Magisterium, Mediatrix of Every Grace is contained within many prayers and statements by the Holy Fathers. Will they ever be infallibly defined as dogma? Maybe not tomorrow, but I think that has less to do with "cluttering the traditions of the Church" (since both these titles are tied to our Sacred Tradition) and more to do with "appeasing Protestants" aka "separated brethren"... And maybe that is true. The current Holy Father says now is not the right time, and I trust their wisdom in that, always.

1/3. No it does not. The BVM played a huge and very important role in redemption, but of course it is not equal to God's role. It is right to honor the role that she did play though. "Co" does not mean "equal to" it comes from the Latin "cum", which means "with". Our Mother gave consent to give life to the Redeemer, raised him from birth, shared his whole life with him.

Mediatrix of All Graces is just logical from the fact that she acquired all graces on Calvary. For this, I think His Holiness Pope Pius X refers to God as the head...the Church as the body....and Our Lady as the neck. The neck is not equal to the head, but it connects the Head to the Body. Another way to see it is through the title of Gevirah, or the Queen-Mother. In the Old Testament, Queen Mother Bathsheba interceded with her son King Solomon. And now, Our Queen Mother intercedes with the King of Kings to bring us every grace. :love:

4. Is it really necessary to define this title as Marian Dogma? Why?

Eventually I do think it is necessary. Because the people should have their faith infallibly defined, so as not to invite confusion into the Church. Why define anything? Why not let people interpret Tradition on their own? At that point, as a Church, we splinter. Of course that doesn't mean I don't agree with His Holiness that we need to wait.

5. What are the effects or impact of such title to the Christendom as a whole?

Same as the effects of the Immaculate Conception or the effects of the Coronation in Heaven: we will become more knowledgeable about our faith and about our Heavenly Mother, and it will bring into perfection what we already know. Some Protestants (a minority) will purposefully harden their hearts and try to misinterpret them in order to bash, and we will pray for them. Other Protestants may be inspired. Who knows.

6. Is it essential to Christian faith? Explain.

I would say yes, to understand Mary, especially her role as a Mediatrix, is most certainly essential. The most effective and most beautiful way to Jesus is through Mary. God chose for the incarnation of his Son to happen through Mary, with her consent. Why did he do it that way? Who knows? But we strive to follow this--to Jesus, through Mary.
God of mercy, let us run
Where yon fount of sorrow flows;
Pondering sweetly, one by one,
Jesus'' wounds and Mary''s woes.

:love:

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Lemonboo
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Post #5

Post by Lemonboo »

Both of those are very very old titles given to our Blessed Mother, and tie directly in with our current Sacred Tradition. Co-Redemptrix is already included as part of the Magisterium, Mediatrix of Every Grace is contained within many prayers and statements by the Holy Fathers. Both are obvious upon simply logically following what is contained in Scripture. Will they ever be infallibly defined as dogma? Maybe not tomorrow, but I think that has less to do with "cluttering the traditions of the Church" (since both these titles are tied to our Sacred Tradition) and more to do with "appeasing Protestants" aka "separated brethren"... And maybe that is true. The current Holy Father says now is not the right time, and I trust their wisdom in that, always.

1. Does the title equate the BVM to Christ?
3. If no, how can she be a co-Redemtrix and Mediatrix of all grace, then?


In no way does it equate Our Lady to Jesus Christ. The BVM played a huge and very important role in redemption, but of course it is not equal to God's role. It is right to honor the role that she did play though. "Co" does not mean "equal to" it comes from the Latin "cum", which means "with", obvious--so in English it means "Woman with the Redeemer" not "Woman equal to the Redeemer". Our Mother gave consent to give life to the Redeemer, raised him from birth, shared his whole life with him. She gave her heart to God that she (and the rest of humanity) might be redeemed--so must we all. To understand Mary's [inferior] role in redemption is to understand our own-say "yes" to God and obey him in all things.

Now, the main problem is with the language, that some Protestants or lax Catholics will willfully misinterpret. And so its about waiting for the right time and making sure people are fully educated beforehand.

Mediatrix of All Graces is just logical from the fact that she acquired all graces on Calvary. For this, I think His Holiness Pope Pius X refers to God as the head...the Church as the body....and Our Lady as the neck. The neck is not equal to the head, but it connects the Head to the Body. Another way to see it is through the title of Gevirah, or the Queen-Mother. In the Old Testament, Queen Mother Bathsheba interceded with her son King Solomon. And now, Our Queen Mother intercedes with the King of Kings to bring us every grace. :love: It does not make her the King...

4. Is it really necessary to define this title as Marian Dogma? Why?

Eventually I do think it is necessary. Because the people should have their faith infallibly defined, so as not to invite confusion into the Church. Why define anything? Why not let people interpret Tradition on their own? At that point, as a Church, we splinter. Of course that doesn't mean I don't agree with His Holiness that we need to wait.

5. What are the effects or impact of such title to the Christendom as a whole?

Same as the effects of the Immaculate Conception or the effects of the Coronation in Heaven: we will become more knowledgeable about our faith and about our Heavenly Mother, and it will bring into perfection what we already know. Some Protestants (a minority) will purposefully harden their hearts and try to misinterpret them in order to bash, and we will pray for them that they find and accept the truth. Other Protestants may be inspired. Who knows.

6. Is it essential to Christian faith? Explain.

I would say yes, to understand Mary, especially her role as a Mediatrix, is most certainly essential. The most effective and most beautiful way to Jesus is through Mary. God chose for the incarnation of his Son to happen through Mary, with her consent. Why did he do it that way? Who knows? But we strive to follow this--to Jesus, through Mary.

It will also I think, once it is formally defined, help to end both overemphasis on Mary (saying she is equal to Jesus, though this is a position I have yet to come across), and the underemphasis on Mary (much more common problem in today's society, at least in North America which is Protestantized).
God of mercy, let us run
Where yon fount of sorrow flows;
Pondering sweetly, one by one,
Jesus'' wounds and Mary''s woes.

:love:

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Post #6

Post by AquinasD »

The Marian dogmas are primarily Christocentric, in that they both 1) stem from Christocentric dogmas and 2) are meant to protect Christocentric dogmas.

Take for instance the proposed title "Mediatrix of All Graces." The title simply means that Mary was the chosen vessel, as in medium, for whom Christ the Son would be born of. It emphasizes the fact that Mary was chosen by God for a specific reason (of which other dogmas emphasize that reason), as opposed to God just choosing Mary for an arbitrary and purposeless reason. She is the medium of Christ, who is the source and reason for "all graces" that exist in the world, hence medium of all graces, or "Mediatrix of All Graces."

So the title emphasizes 1) the Christocentric dogma that Chris is the source of all graces in the world and 2) protects this dogma in asserting that Mary was specially chosen, due to the person she was bearing to the world in birth.

Insofar as Marian devotion has been esteemed by the Church in history, the first controversial Marian dogma to be formally defined was the doctrine of Theotokos, which means "Mother of God," as opposed to the title Christotokos proposed by Bishop Nestorius, to mean merely "Mother of Christ." (This happened at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Marian devotion had existed before that, it was only being formally defined and clarified then.) Theotokos was chosen over Christotokos to emphasize that Mary gave birth to Christ as a whole person with two natures (human and divine), as opposed to only giving birth to the human person (or substance, ousia as it would be in the Greek) to which the divine person was attached.

So the title "Theotokos" can be seen to follow logically from the doctrine of diophysitism, which means that Christ is a single person of two natures rather than monophysitism which states that Christ is two persons each of individual natures. Mary is the Mother of God because Christ is human and God (though of course the Son's divinity is not in virtue of Mary, but in virtue of the Father). Of course, it was the Council of Chalcedon in 451 which defined the doctrine of diophysitism, so we can see that Marian dogmas function as protectors of Christocentric dogmas.

In this way we can see that Christocentric and Marian dogmas strengthen and help to define each other.

To note, there are four Marian dogmas held in the Catholic Church; perpetual virginity, theotokos, immaculate conception, and the assumption into Heaven. The titles Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix are proposed dogmas, but they have not been formally defined as of yet. There are other important titles, but they technically aren't dogmas, though they hold favor in the Church, such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of All Christians.

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Post #7

Post by S-word »

AquinasD wrote:The Marian dogmas are primarily Christocentric, in that they both 1) stem from Christocentric dogmas and 2) are meant to protect Christocentric dogmas.

Take for instance the proposed title "Mediatrix of All Graces." The title simply means that Mary was the chosen vessel, as in medium, for whom Christ the Son would be born of. It emphasizes the fact that Mary was chosen by God for a specific reason (of which other dogmas emphasize that reason), as opposed to God just choosing Mary for an arbitrary and purposeless reason. She is the medium of Christ, who is the source and reason for "all graces" that exist in the world, hence medium of all graces, or "Mediatrix of All Graces."

So the title emphasizes 1) the Christocentric dogma that Chris is the source of all graces in the world and 2) protects this dogma in asserting that Mary was specially chosen, due to the person she was bearing to the world in birth.

Insofar as Marian devotion has been esteemed by the Church in history, the first controversial Marian dogma to be formally defined was the doctrine of Theotokos, which means "Mother of God," as opposed to the title Christotokos proposed by Bishop Nestorius, to mean merely "Mother of Christ." (This happened at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Marian devotion had existed before that, it was only being formally defined and clarified then.) Theotokos was chosen over Christotokos to emphasize that Mary gave birth to Christ as a whole person with two natures (human and divine), as opposed to only giving birth to the human person (or substance, ousia as it would be in the Greek) to which the divine person was attached.

So the title "Theotokos" can be seen to follow logically from the doctrine of diophysitism, which means that Christ is a single person of two natures rather than monophysitism which states that Christ is two persons each of individual natures. Mary is the Mother of God because Christ is human and God (though of course the Son's divinity is not in virtue of Mary, but in virtue of the Father). Of course, it was the Council of Chalcedon in 451 which defined the doctrine of diophysitism, so we can see that Marian dogmas function as protectors of Christocentric dogmas.

In this way we can see that Christocentric and Marian dogmas strengthen and help to define each other.

To note, there are four Marian dogmas held in the Catholic Church; perpetual virginity, theotokos, immaculate conception, and the assumption into Heaven. The titles Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix are proposed dogmas, but they have not been formally defined as of yet. There are other important titles, but they technically aren't dogmas, though they hold favor in the Church, such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of All Christians.
All that has been said in this thread so far, is based on the false foundation that Jesus was somehow not born of the seed of Adam, the origin and father of every human being, who has ever, or who will ever, walk this earth.

The Logos is all the gathered information from the previous cycle of universal activity in our eternal cyclic system, which would be expressed, not as spoken words, but as the recreation or resurrection of the previouse universal body, in which the Spirit that develops within the body of mankind, which body is the Most High in the creation, Lord of creatures and the prototype of the Lord of Spirits which is the Son of Man, the spirit that developes within the sinful body of mankind.

In the beginning of this cycle of universal activity, was the Logos and the Logos was God, in whom there was life, "A supreme personality of Godhead," and that life was the light of man, "All the knowledge, wisdom, and insight that was gathered to the spirit within body of mankind, the Most High in the physical creation and Lord of the creatures who are lower on the ladder of evolution or creation.

John the baptist, was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness to that light with his baptism of water, which was symbolic of the great flood, when the body of man, of which body, Adam sat in the throne of Godhead, was submerged in the baptismal waters of the macro man, from which rose the new Godhead to the body of the most high in creation which was Enoch.

Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives are all the genetic descendants of the six sons of Enoch, who are, Methulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad, and according to the bible story, we are all the genetic descendants of Noah, in whom is the living spirit of Enoch our indwell Father, in whose throne, now sits our chosen Lord and High priest, Jesus.

Enoch who, in Genesis 5: 23; is recorded to have been taken by God at the age of 365, the number of days in a calendar year, which is the age of the unblemished Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

Enoch, who according to Hebrew 11: 5; was taken to God and translated so as not to see death. To tanslate something you must change it from one form to another, and Enoch was stripped of his mortal garment and anointed with the sweet smelling ointment of God which shone with the brilliance of the Sun and behold, he was as one of the glorious ones.

It was the undying spirit of Enoch, within the body of mankind, who had ascended to the ends of the cycle of universal activity and who witnessed the universal elements burn up and fall as massive columns of fire, beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss/Black Hole which, according to Enoch, is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, which obviously included himself.

The Light of Man that was in the Logos at the beginning, watched as the Logos died in the process of involution, in the resurrection of the universal body in which the Lord of spirits the most high in the creation, had told John, that the man upon whom his spirit descended was the man that he had chosen to baptise with fire.

The man Jesus was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind, the first to be raised from the dead past of the "Son of Man."

No man has ascended to heaven except he who came down, (Whose spirit came down) even the Son of Man who "IS" in heaven.

To all who received the Son of Man, whose spirit, ' Words/wisdon, knowledge and insight,' came down, while He, the Son of Man, the great simulacrum, remained in the different time dimension that co-exists within this three dimensional world, (For the kingdom of God is within you) and filled the body of his chosen successor, who, although born of the flesh as are all human beings, was then born of God's spirit, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased. This day I have begotten thee.

In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.�) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,� vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine.
All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.� Whereas the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.�

As many as receives the Son of Man, who is the light and life of the Logos that died in the process of involution in the resurrection of this universal body that had descended into the seemingly bottomless pit, to them gave he the power to become the Son's of God. Who are born Son's of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the fleash, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of God, as was our brother Jesus, the first fruits to be harvested from the body of the most high in the creation.

Do you honestly believe that the 144000 Sons of God, will all be born of virgin mothers, and that 144000 thrones will have to be created in heaven to accommodate, those 144000 mothers of God?

Once the 144000 required positions have been filled, the door shall be closed and no man will ever open it. The 144000, who are the required number of the elect and chosen, who win the victory as did Jesus and are invited to sit in the throne of Goshead beside our brother Jesus, see Rev 3: 21; in the throne of our Father, who gave his immortal body of light, which was torn asunder and poured out as fire, for our salvation.

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Post #8

Post by pax »

There are four Marian dogmas:

1). Her Immaculate Conception

2). Her perpetual virginity

3). Her sinless life

4). Her bodily Assumption into heaven.

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Post #9

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

pax wrote:There are four Marian dogmas:

1). Her Immaculate Conception

2). Her perpetual virginity

3). Her sinless life

4). Her bodily Assumption into heaven.
The four Marian Dogmas are:

A Divine Motherhood
Mary is the mother (birthgiver) of Jesus, who is God.

B Perpetual Virginity
Mary has always been a virgin, even while giving birth miraculously.

C Immaculate Conception
By special grace, Mary was free from original sin from her conception. This implies a sinless life but that is not a separate doctrine.

D Assumption
At the end of her life, Mary was assumed bodily into heaven. The dogma does not state whether she was still alive or had actually died when this happened.

See here for further descriptions.

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/mariandogmas.html

(The University of Dayton is a private Catholic university.)
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Post #10

Post by pax »

ThatGirlAgain wrote:
pax wrote:There are four Marian dogmas:

1). Her Immaculate Conception

2). Her perpetual virginity

3). Her sinless life

4). Her bodily Assumption into heaven.
The four Marian Dogmas are:

A Divine Motherhood
Mary is the mother (birthgiver) of Jesus, who is God.

B Perpetual Virginity
Mary has always been a virgin, even while giving birth miraculously.

C Immaculate Conception
By special grace, Mary was free from original sin from her conception. This implies a sinless life but that is not a separate doctrine.

D Assumption
At the end of her life, Mary was assumed bodily into heaven. The dogma does not state whether she was still alive or had actually died when this happened.

See here for further descriptions.

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/mariandogmas.html

(The University of Dayton is a private Catholic university.)
They are in error.

Theotokos is a title given to Mary by the Council of Ephesus. Its purpose was to arrest Christological heresies on the divine and human natures of Jesus Christ.

Mary's sinless life is the dogma.

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