Why do the catholics preach a false gospel?

A place to discuss Catholic topics and issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Composer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:17 am
Location: Western Australia

Why do the catholics preach a false gospel?

Post #1

Post by Composer »

Even a trinitarian scholar admits what the trinitarian catholic church now preaches was NOT what the earliest and original believers taught or believed!

The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)

Or more recently:

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28)

27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180
28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980

&

CARDINAL NEWMAN, the most remarkable English ecclesiastic of the 19th century:

"It may startle those who are but acquainted with the popular writing of this day, yet, I believe, the most accurate consideration of the subject will lead us to acquiesce in the statement as a general truth, that the doctrines in question (viz., the Trinity and the Incarnation) have never been learned merely from Scripture. Surely the sacred volume was never intended, and is not adapted to teach us our creed; however certain it is that we can prove our creed from it, when it has once been taught us. . . . From the very first, the rule has been, as a matter of fact, for the Church to teach the truth, and then appeal to Scripture in vindication of its own teaching." -Arians of the Fourth Century, pp. 55-56.

i.e. the trinity formulation is a ' johnny come lately corruption of the original beliefs! '.

Image
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

jedicri
Scholar
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:40 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #61

Post by jedicri »

ThatGirlAgain wrote:
AquinasD wrote:Yeah... I can't make head nor tail of what you're saying. Sorry S-word.
I am in the same boat. I have no idea what S-word is talking about. Does anyone else follow what S-Word is saying? If so, can you help in explaining it?
Nope....

S-word
Scholar
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 6:04 am

Post #62

Post by S-word »

jedicri wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:
AquinasD wrote:Yeah... I can't make head nor tail of what you're saying. Sorry S-word.
I am in the same boat. I have no idea what S-word is talking about. Does anyone else follow what S-Word is saying? If so, can you help in explaining it?
Nope....
When you do begin to understand, you will then realise that the spirit of the anti-christ which now controlls your minds and have made them so dull, will have been defeated, and Your eyes and ears will then be opened to the truth that has been revealed to you though the words that have been given me.

No matter what you do, you will not be able to kill off the seed that has been planted in your minds.

There is but one man, and one man only, who has been recorded in God's word as having been taken to the very throne of Godhead to the most high in the creation, where he was translated so as to never experience death. The Lord has revealed to you, the Father of the post flood body of mankind, who you have all rejected.

How could a man, born of the seed of Adam be redeemed and given the lot of eternal life, before your eternal and immortal god came down and entered the womb of your supposed perpetual virgin, etc, rubbish, etc, more rubbish, etc.

It was the living spirit of Enoch within the body of Abraham, to who all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, and who were then separated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the living evolving spirit within the bosom of Abraham.

Three days (Three periods of one thousand years) had the spirit of Enoch evolved within the valley of man, before he was reborn on earth as the man Jesus Christ, whose death of the cross released all those righteous spirits who had been judged in the flesh as all humans are and over whom the death, imposed on the body of Adam, had no more power.

Those righteous ones, now live their spiritual lives as did our heavenly Father, gathering to themselves the spirits of Good people who fall asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, which righteous blood will be the ransom price for the life of the earthly host bodies of the spirits of the body of our Lord, which they will chose from among mankind, in which to be reborn on earth, as was Enoch in the body of the man jesus.

Then they, who are the body of Jesus, will take the thrones that have been prepared for them, through which resurrected body of Jesus Christ, Our Lord God and Saviour will judge the whole of creation visible and invisible, with justice.

Acts 17: 31; "For he (Our Lord God and Saviour, the most High in the creation) has fixed a day (the Day of the Lord, the Great sabbath, the seventh period of one thousand years from when Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930) in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone, by raising that MAN from death.?

We are now at the close of the sixth day, and Elijah, who was carried up to stand before Enoch, has been in the valley of man for three days also, and he is soon to appear in his chosen host temple, which he will transform to a body of brilliant and blinding light.

MALACHI 3: 1-2; The Lord Almighty says, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. Then the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.�

But who will be able to endure the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears?

User avatar
Slopeshoulder
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post #63

Post by Slopeshoulder »

Are you saying you believe that and that this real?

User avatar
micatala
Site Supporter
Posts: 8338
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:04 pm

Post #64

Post by micatala »

S-word wrote:
jedicri wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:
AquinasD wrote:Yeah... I can't make head nor tail of what you're saying. Sorry S-word.
I am in the same boat. I have no idea what S-word is talking about. Does anyone else follow what S-Word is saying? If so, can you help in explaining it?
Nope....
When you do begin to understand, you will then realise that the spirit of the anti-christ which now controlls your minds and have made them so dull, will have been defeated, and Your eyes and ears will then be opened to the truth that has been revealed to you though the words that have been given me.

No matter what you do, you will not be able to kill off the seed that has been planted in your minds.

* * * * *


But who will be able to endure the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears?


Moderator Comment


This post can largely be characterized as preaching rather than debate, and can also be considered a form of personal attack in that it makes comments about members being controlled by the anti-Christ.

Remember this is a debate forum, not a platform for preaching.


Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
OldCelticHippy
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:05 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Why do Catholics preach a false Gospel?

Post #65

Post by OldCelticHippy »

While I am not formally a Roman Catholic Christian, and came to Christ mostly apart from any particular church's theological stand, I am now a Trinitarian Christian.
Why?

Because a "trinitarian" concept of the Godhead is the only logical position to take.
I was a "cradle Catholic" before I became a Protestant Evangelical Christian. I had the normal First Communion, but no Confirmation, since my family pretty-much abandoned all Christianity while I was still a young boy. Additionally, I don't remember much of my early Catholic teaching.

After I first started using marijuana as a young man, I began an investigation into all sorts of religions. I also found that reading the Bible while stoned made the words seem as if they were the ABSOLUTE truth. They were more "real" to me while I read while stoned, and less "real" when I read while not stoned. The same was not true of the other religions which I investigated. Why this was, I have no explanation.

But this I know with all assurance of reality:
1) God is an Intelligent Being. IN fact, He is Intelligence and Being themselves. He is the Source of all being and intelligence.
2) The Bible tells us that God made man in His own image. But what does this mean? Does it mean that God is somehow a glorified man? With arms, legs, eyes, sexual organs, etc? For many years, I believed this. But late last year, I believe that God heard my prayers for insight on the teaching of the Divine Trinity. and gave me a revelation of this image which God has placed in mankind. This revelation stands on two basic premises.

1) God is a sentient Being. He is Sentience and Being themselves.
2) Men are sentient beings. We receive sentience because God placed it in the first Man and Woman.

But, what is a Sentient Being?
1) A sentient being is one which is aware of itself and its surroundings. A sentient being is self-subsisting.
2) A sentient being has the capacity, will, and desire to express itself in words and images to others outside itself.
3) A sentient being has the ability, will, and power to express these words and images to others outside itself, thus "realizing" these words and images outside itself.

So, God is basically tripartite in nature. He is, He thinks, feels, and speaks, and He creates.

When God showed me this, I immediately saw the relationship of Man to God, ie., the image which God placed in Mankind, since Mankind is itself tripartite in nature.

But I still rebelled against the Christian Trinitarian concept of the Godhead. Then I read "Summa Theologicae", by Saint Thomas Aquinas.

After several months of reading him daily, I've finally had my questions to God about the Trinitarian doctrine of orthodox Christianity answered.

The relationship is easy to perceive once one has had the question of the image of God placed in mankind answered.

Here is how I see Him now:
A: The Father = The Godhead in His entirety
B: The Word = The Father's Mind, Heart, Will, and Emotions
C: The Spirit = The Father's creative ability.

Whether these Three are Persons in themselves, I do not know at this present time.
But I do believe these Three are somehow inter-related, and united completely, since the Godhead is united in Himself, and not divided. He is simple, not compound, as Saint Thomas puts it.

From John 1:1, I see that God revealed Himself to what we call "reality" through His Word. This Word was both with, and was, very God. This Word became (or clothed Itself in) the flesh of Mankind. Of a SPECIFIC Person, whom we call "Jesus of Nazareth", Who was both Man, and God. He was Man, because He was born of a woman, and always will be, a Man, in all His entirety. He was God, because He was, and is, and ever shall be, the Word of God, in ALL It's entirety.

The Father did this by causing the seed of a Woman, whom we call "Mary", to become alive, and begin growing in Her womb, as all humanity is begotten and made. As a result, Gabriel, the Angel who told Her that She would bear the Child, said that it was for this reason, that the "thing in Her womb would be called, 'The Son of God' ".

The Father did this through the agency of His Spirit, His creative ability. Whether this Son of God, Christ Jesus, existed in actuality [ie., "reality"] before He was begotten in the womb of Mary, I know not. From what I have read of Saint Thomas, the Son of God was existing in potentiality in the Father from all Eternity. From this, I reason that He did not become in actuality until He was begotten in the womb of Mary.

Now, Theologians can argue back and forth about whether Jesus had two natures, three natures, or only one nature. It matters not to me anymore.

What does matter to me is that The Father has, in Christ Jesus, made forgiveness of sins and the ability to share in the Nature of the Father Himself, through the exceeding great Promises of God, available to all who will call on the Name of Christ Jesus, a true Man, and the eternal and immortal Image of the Father, and the very Eternal Word of God.

Our first father of the flesh, Adam, who was the original form of Mankind, but who failed to actualize the Promise of God through obedience to His Word, has been replaced by our new father of the Spirit, the New Man, Christ Jesus, Who did actualize the Promise of God in all obedience, even obedience ending in death upon the Cross.

"He, Who knew no sin, became sin [itself] on our behalf, that we might be made the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus." is the way Saint Paul puts it.

If it had ended there, we would be most of all to be pitied. But it did not. What good is forgiveness of sin, unless we can continue existing? How could our forgiveness alone give glory to the Father? Thanks be to God, through Christ Jesus, that the Cross was not the end of all things. On the third day, God raised Christ Jesus from among the dead, bodily. All now who are in Christ Jesus, through baptism into His death, will be raised bodily, just as He was.

All who are now conformed in mind, will, and desires, to THIS New Man, Christ Jesus, will partake of the very nature of the Father Himself in this Life, and in the next, immortality and incorruptibly of soul and body.

Your fellow-servant for the sake of the Gospel of Christ Jesus, in the Kingdom and suffering and glory which are in Christ Jesus,

Donald Lee McDaniel

User avatar
pax
Guru
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:10 am
Location: Gravenhurst Ontario Canada

catholic teaching

Post #66

Post by pax »

The following is a Catholic prayer which summarizes the official teaching on the Most Holy Trinity:

It is fitting indeed
And just, right and helpful to salvation,
For us always and everywhere to
give thanks to You,
O Holy Lord, Father Almighty, Everlasting God,

Who, with Your Only-begotten Son and the Holy Spirit
Are one God, one Lord;
Not in the unity of a single person,
but in the trinity of a single nature.

For that which we believe on Your revelation concerning Your glory,
That same we believe of Your Son,
that same of the Holy Spirit,
without difference or discrimination.
So that in confessing the true and everlasting Godhead,
We shall adore distinction in persons,
oneness in being,
and equality in Majesty.

This the Angels and Archangels,
the Cherubim, too, and the Seraphim do praise;
day by day they cease not
to cry out as with one voice, saying:

Holy! Holy! Holy! Lord God of Hosts.
Heaven and earth are filled with Your glory.
Hosanna in the highest!
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest!

For more information on what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the Most Holy Trinity see The Athanasian Creed.

abstractposters
Student
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:14 am
Location: Granby, Connecticut

Post #67

Post by abstractposters »

Justice is with the LORD, our God; and we today are flushed with shame, we men of Judah and citizens of Jerusalem, that we, with our kings and rulers and priests and prophets, and with our fathers, have sinned in the LORD's sight and disobeyed him. ~ BARUCH 1:15-18a

TomD
Student
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:21 am

Re: Why do the catholics preach a false gospel?

Post #68

Post by TomD »

Even a trinitarian scholar admits what the trinitarian catholic church now preaches was NOT what the earliest and original believers taught or believed!
Nonsense. The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is in no wise different from the earliest, inchoate understandings.
It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed.
Nonsense. I would say it must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of metaphysical insight that the Holy Trinity was at the very heart of the original message.
Romans 8:15 "For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Father)"
and
Galatians 4:6 "And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father."
He saw the Holy Spirit brings about divine filiation (adoption), and without the Holy Spirit we would not know the Son, nor the Father.
The earliest Fathers of the Church taught that 'the Holy Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father'.
The Book of the acts of the Apostles is Luke's Gospel of the Holy Spirit.
In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament"
And what is doctrine but the clarification of understanding in the face of error?
... that the doctrines in question (viz., the Trinity and the Incarnation) have never been learned merely from Scripture. Surely the sacred volume was never intended, and is not adapted to teach us our creed; however certain it is that we can prove our creed from it, when it has once been taught us ... From the very first, the rule has been, as a matter of fact, for the Church to teach the truth, and then appeal to Scripture in vindication of its own teaching.
There, the blessed Cardinal makes the point. The Creeds, Doctrines and Dogmas were formulated by the Church, founded on Scripture.

Scripture Itself points to that very fact:
John 14:17 "The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you."

John 15:26: "But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me."

John 16:13: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you." (emphasis mine).

God bless,

TomD

saundthorp

Post #69

Post by saundthorp »

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but S-Word, whether he is in fact a Jehovah's Witness or not, is just stating standard Jehovah's Witnesses teaching. Anyone with any knowledge of the Bible will be aware that J.W. beliefs are based on one of the most inaccurate translations of the Bible ever carried out. It was done by the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society in 1950.
An incisive analysis by John Wijngaards, in 1998, refuted comprehensively all J.W. beliefs, particularly their arguments against the divinity Of Christ.
He demonstrated again and again the woefully inadequacy of their translations.
I am aware that Wijngaards is a no longer an orthodox Catholic theologian, but his analysis of the Watch Tower Bible was spot on.

The Tongue
Under Probation
Posts: 1667
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 12:08 am
Location: Townsville Queensland Australia

Post #70

Post by The Tongue »

saundthorp wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned before but S-Word, whether he is in fact a Jehovah's Witness or not, is just stating standard Jehovah's Witnesses teaching. Anyone with any knowledge of the Bible will be aware that J.W. beliefs are based on one of the most inaccurate translations of the Bible ever carried out. It was done by the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society in 1950.
An incisive analysis by John Wijngaards, in 1998, refuted comprehensively all J.W. beliefs, particularly their arguments against the divinity Of Christ.
He demonstrated again and again the woefully inadequacy of their translations.
I am aware that Wijngaards is a no longer an orthodox Catholic theologian, but his analysis of the Watch Tower Bible was spot on.
All who know anything about the JW cult, will know that nothing that S-word has said, ever originated from that cult, and that you Have absolutely no understanding of the Holy Scriptures or the truth that is revealed by the S-word.

Please reveal anywhere, that the S-word's beliefs can in anyway whatsoever, be considered to be similar to the teachings of the JW's in anyway?

S-word wrote in post #62:

There is but one man, and one man only, who has been recorded in God's word as having been taken to the very throne of Godhead to the most high in the creation, where he was translated so as to never experience death. See Genesis 5: 23; and Hebrew 11: 5.The Lord has revealed to you, the Father of the post flood body of mankind, who you have all rejected.

How could a man, born of the seed of Adam be redeemed and given the lot of eternal life, before your supposed eternal and immortal god came down and entered the womb of your supposed perpetual virgin?

It was the living spirit of Enoch within the body of Abraham, to who all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, and who were then separated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the living evolving spirit within the bosom of Abraham.

Three days (Three periods of one thousand years) had the spirit of Enoch evolved within the valley of man, before he was reborn on earth as the man Jesus Christ, whose death of the cross released all those righteous spirits who had been judged in the flesh as all humans are and over whom the death, imposed on the body of Adam, had no more power.

Those righteous ones, now live their spiritual lives as did our heavenly Father, gathering to themselves the spirits of Good people who fall asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, which righteous blood will be the ransom price for the life of the earthly host bodies of the spirits of the body of our Lord, which they will chose from among mankind, in which to be reborn on earth, as was Enoch in the body of the man jesus.

Then they, who are the body of Jesus, will take the thrones that have been prepared for them, through which resurrected body of Jesus Christ, Our Lord God and Saviour will judge the whole of creation visible and invisible, with justice.

Acts 17: 31; "For he (Our Lord God and Saviour, the most High in the creation) has fixed a day (the Day of the Lord, the Great sabbath, the seventh period of one thousand years from when Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930) in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone, by raising that MAN from death.?

We are now at the close of the sixth day, and Elijah, who was carried up to stand before Enoch, has been in the valley of man for three days also, and he is soon to appear in his chosen host temple, which he will transform to a body of brilliant and blinding light.

MALACHI 3: 1-2; The Lord Almighty says, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. Then the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.�

But who will be able to endure the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears?


[saundthorp wrote]..........I don't know if this has been mentioned before but S-Word, whether he is in fact a Jehovah's Witness or not, is just stating standard Jehovah's Witnesses teaching.

OK mate, put up or shut up. Show to everyone in this forum, where you believe that which the S-word has said, can is in any way whatsoever, be considered to have come from the teachings of the JW cult?

I believe that you know nothing about the teaching of the JW cult, as you appear to be totally ignorant to the Holy Scriptures as well.

Post Reply