Official stance on who are sinners?

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Composer
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Official stance on who are sinners?

Post #1

Post by Composer »

Am I correct that the catholic members of the catholic church have priests to intercede / other role regarding the sins admitted at Confession by members of the catholic congregation?

Is confession considered compulsory?

Are the priests themselves also considered sinners and if so, to whom do they go for confession and I suppose have their personal sins ' forgiven / other? '.

1. Are there any exceptions where certain/any members or clergy are considered to be totally without sin and 2. therefore never need to confess or take part in confession and 3. IF that is the case upon what basis?

Thank you
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

jmac2112
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Re: Official stance on who are sinners?

Post #2

Post by jmac2112 »

Composer wrote:Am I correct that the catholic members of the catholic church have priests to intercede / other role regarding the sins admitted at Confession by members of the catholic congregation?


Catholics believe that the priest acts "in persona Christi", which basically means that Christ is the one doing the forgiving, but through the words and actions of the priest.

Is confession considered compulsory?


A Catholic is bound in good conscience to confess any mortal sins (sins involving serious matter which are consciously chosen) to a priest. This is not to say that God cannot forgive a sinner any other way (as St. Augustine says, "God is not bound by the sacraments"). Christ ordained confession as the normal channel for the forgiveness of sins because of a) our human tendency to BS ourselves about the true nature of our actions and intentions, b) so that we may receive good advice from the priest, and c) so that we may "feel" forgiven through hearing the words of absolution. But if you died while on the way to confession, we believe that God would understand.

Are the priests themselves also considered sinners and if so, to whom do they go for confession and I suppose have their personal sins ' forgiven / other? '.


Yes, priests are sinners like everyone else, and they go to confession to other priests.

1. Are there any exceptions where certain/any members or clergy are considered to be totally without sin and 2. therefore never need to confess or take part in confession and 3. IF that is the case upon what basis?


No member of the clergy is totally without sin. The pope himself has his own confessor.


Thank you
You're welcome!

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Post #3

Post by Composer »

Thanks for that!

catholics appear to be in disagreement with their own bible?

It reads: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, . . . . (James 5:16) catholic edition RSV 1966.

There will be healing if you confess your sins to one another and pray for each other. (James 5:16) Digital catholic bible

NB: confess your sins to one another?

It doesn't say go and confess to a priest!

Likewise it states the priests and pope should be confessing to those like you also instead of selectively amongst themselves!

Thanks again!
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

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Post #4

Post by jmac2112 »

It reads: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, . . . . (James 5:16) catholic edition RSV 1966.


And excellent advice it is, too. Have you ever known someone who had a resentment toward you because of something you did, even if you didn't mean to hurt him? If you go and confess your part in the matter, it's amazing how that will often melt the other person's heart, and he will forgive you.

Also, we pray for one another, even our enemies, for the obvious reason, namely that we wish God to give each of us what is best according to His will. But such prayer also has the effect of generating love in our hearts for the object of our prayer. Even if that other person refuses God's grace, at least we will have developed a Godly attitude toward that person, i.e. love and a willingness to forgive.


There will be healing if you confess your sins to one another and pray for each other. (James 5:16) Digital catholic bible

There certainly will be!


NB: confess your sins to one another?

It doesn't say go and confess to a priest!
The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. The New Testament wasn't even around for quite a while, but the Church was already in place starting at Pentecost, being led by the Apostles and those whom they appointed, and being guided by the Spirit.

Read John 20, 19-23. Apparently those on whom Christ breathed received some special gift, linked to their special reception of the Holy Spirit. Every Christian should confess wrongs to those he has offended, and every Christian should forgive those who have offended him. But clearly something different was happening here. Likewise with Christ giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom and telling him that whatsoever he binds on earth, etc. Read the early Fathers and the history of the early Church. If Protestant ecclesiology is right, then the Holy Spirit must have been falling down on the job right from the get-go, and it took a German monk with a spiritual crisis and an English king with a divorce problem to set things right 1500 years later.
Likewise it states the priests and pope should be confessing to those like you also instead of selectively amongst themselves!
I'm sure the pope does confess to those whom he has wronged.


But if you're looking for a debate, perhaps a debate forum would be better. You can also go over to the good folks at Catholic Answers if you want to hear the Catholic side of things. They have debate forums, too.

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Post #5

Post by Composer »

jmac2112 wrote:
It reads: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, . . . . (James 5:16) catholic edition RSV 1966.


And excellent advice it is, too. Have you ever known someone who had a resentment toward you because of something you did, even if you didn't mean to hurt him? If you go and confess your part in the matter, it's amazing how that will often melt the other person's heart, and he will forgive you.
That hypothesis has nought to do with my point that the catholic mindset of ' confessing via a priest ' is unnecessary and fabricated by catholicism in order to give their priests a purpose instead of doing next to nothing.
jmac2112 wrote: Also, we pray for one another, even our enemies, for the obvious reason, namely that we wish God to give each of us what is best according to His will.
Considering you people apparently believe your god has made things as they are for a purpose, then you are refuting that and interfering in trying to persuade the enemies your god made, in to what you want them to be instead of leaving them as you claim your god created them and intended them to be. Unfortunately your god has manipualted some to become your enemies and then you want to manipulate them again for your sake?
NB: confess your sins to one another?

It doesn't say go and confess to a priest!
jmac2112 wrote: The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. The New Testament wasn't even around for quite a while, but the Church was already in place starting at Pentecost, being led by the Apostles and those whom they appointed, and being guided by the Spirit.
Apart from your corrupt trinitarian catholic Cult's propaganda and empty emotional pleads for credibility, what actual legitimate evidence do you think you have for us to scrutinise?
Likewise it states the priests and pope should be confessing to those like you also instead of selectively amongst themselves!
jmac2112 wrote: I'm sure the pope does confess to those whom he has wronged.
Speculation on your part again!

Indeed your Popes have offended me by preaching their lies based upon their preferred Story book version!

IF your Pope could face me I would ' kick his butt ' (metaph') and expose him as just another fraud in the line of every catholic Popes before and after him.
jmac2112 wrote: But if you're looking for a debate, perhaps a debate forum would be better. You can also go over to the good folks at Catholic Answers if you want to hear the Catholic side of things. They have debate forums, too.
A Link would be good for starters?

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Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

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Post #6

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

Composer wrote:
jmac2112 wrote:
It reads: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, . . . . (James 5:16) catholic edition RSV 1966.


And excellent advice it is, too. Have you ever known someone who had a resentment toward you because of something you did, even if you didn't mean to hurt him? If you go and confess your part in the matter, it's amazing how that will often melt the other person's heart, and he will forgive you.
That hypothesis has nought to do with my point that the catholic mindset of ' confessing via a priest ' is unnecessary and fabricated by catholicism in order to give their priests a purpose instead of doing next to nothing.
The biblical justification given for Confession is:
John 20:22-23
22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
It was Protestantism that abandoned the practice of private confession to a priest. Luther himself objected only to its mandatory and sacramental nature and lamented that his followers were abandoning it completely. (Ref). In addition to countering various claims of Protestantism, the Council of Trent re-emphasized that Confession was a time honored tradition, justified by the words of Jesus and of a sacramental nature. (Ref)
Composer wrote:
jmac2112 wrote: Also, we pray for one another, even our enemies, for the obvious reason, namely that we wish God to give each of us what is best according to His will.
Considering you people apparently believe your god has made things as they are for a purpose, then you are refuting that and interfering in trying to persuade the enemies your god made, in to what you want them to be instead of leaving them as you claim your god created them and intended them to be. Unfortunately your god has manipulated some to become your enemies and then you want to manipulate them again for your sake?
The Catholic view of God’s Plan is how man can obtain freedom for original sin and find salvation via the sacrifice of Christ and the action of the Catholic Church that Christ established. (Ref) The idea of every detail of the world being God’s Plan is often mentioned, usually in response to some tragedy, but it is not doctrinal.
Composer wrote: NB: confess your sins to one another?

It doesn't say go and confess to a priest!
jmac2112 wrote: The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. The New Testament wasn't even around for quite a while, but the Church was already in place starting at Pentecost, being led by the Apostles and those whom they appointed, and being guided by the Spirit.
Apart from your corrupt trinitarian catholic Cult's propaganda and empty emotional pleads for credibility, what actual legitimate evidence do you think you have for us to scrutinise?
Actually as I have referenced above, there is Biblical justification for Confession. And don’t forget that Catholic catch-all:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Composer wrote: Likewise it states the priests and pope should be confessing to those like you also instead of selectively amongst themselves!
jmac2112 wrote: I'm sure the pope does confess to those whom he has wronged.
Speculation on your part again!
Once again, John 20 specifically mentions the Apostles, not the whole Catholic community as receiving the power to grant or withhold absolution. This power is passed on by the Apostolic Succession to the ordained clergy.
Composer wrote:
jmac2112 wrote: But if you're looking for a debate, perhaps a debate forum would be better. You can also go over to the good folks at Catholic Answers if you want to hear the Catholic side of things. They have debate forums, too.
A Link would be good for starters?
Here is Catholic Answers: http://www.catholic.com/
Here is the Forums link: http://forums.catholic.com/index.php
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Post #7

Post by Composer »

ThatGirlAgain wrote: The biblical justification given for Confession is:
John 20:22-23
22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
1. Can't see where it says " Confess to Priests? ".

2. I remind catholics of what it does clearly state (James 5:16) which is dumped and overridden by catholics in preference for other quotes? - Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, . . . . (James 5:16) catholic edition RSV 1966

Unambiguously clear that confession is to be ' towards one another ' and NOT exclusively to priests!
ThatGirlAgain wrote: It was Protestantism that abandoned the practice of private confession to a priest. Luther himself objected only to its mandatory and sacramental nature and lamented that his followers were abandoning it completely. (Ref). In addition to countering various claims of Protestantism, the Council of Trent re-emphasized that Confession was a time honored tradition, justified by the words of Jesus and of a sacramental nature. (Ref)
Well Luther's opinion is Luther's opinion and the Council of Trent a corrupt and biased farce that imposed beliefs absolutely foreign and rejected by the Original (Anti/Non trinitarian) believers.
Composer wrote:
jmac2112 wrote: Also, we pray for one another, even our enemies, for the obvious reason, namely that we wish God to give each of us what is best according to His will.
Considering you people apparently believe your god has made things as they are for a purpose, then you are refuting that and interfering in trying to persuade the enemies your god made, in to what you want them to be instead of leaving them as you claim your god created them and intended them to be. Unfortunately your god has manipulated some to become your enemies and then you want to manipulate them again for your sake?
ThatGirlAgain wrote: The Catholic view of God’s Plan is how man can obtain freedom for original sin and find salvation via the sacrifice of Christ and the action of the Catholic Church that Christ established. (Ref) The idea of every detail of the world being God’s Plan is often mentioned, usually in response to some tragedy, but it is not doctrinal.
1. The catholic view is a view expressed by frauds that preach a gospel foreign and rejected by the Original (NON trinitarian) believers.

2. As I already proved the notion and claim of original sin, even according to the bible text itself is proved to be another chrsitian ideological lie! (I can provide again such proofs any time.)

3. Story book christ is a Story book mythical character and hence itself incapable of doing anything itself including establishing ANY literal church and even IF one were hypothetically initiated, it was NOT trinitarian in thought, word or ideological nature; but quite the opposite.

Story book Jesus is a mythical character and could not have founded anything, including a church. He died in Story book bible land and the Original believers that followed did not found a church either, because they thought that he was coming back soon as the Story book jesus had promised! (Another jesus' lie)

They just kept going to the Temple and Synagogues and did not found a church either because they were waiting and anticipating the promise of its early return to occur, which didn't and couldn't because it is a Story book mythical character these duped believers convinced themselves it literally had existed!
Composer wrote: NB: confess your sins to one another?

It doesn't say go and confess to a priest!
jmac2112 wrote: The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. The New Testament wasn't even around for quite a while, but the Church was already in place starting at Pentecost, being led by the Apostles and those whom they appointed, and being guided by the Spirit.
Apart from the corrupt trinitarian catholic Cult's propaganda and empty emotional pleads for credibility, what actual legitimate evidence do any catholics think they have for us to scrutinise?[/quote]
ThatGirlAgain wrote: Actually as I have referenced above, there is Biblical justification for Confession. And don’t forget that Catholic catch-all:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
That doesn't legitimately work for catholics either; as I can also easily demonstrate.
Composer wrote: Likewise it states the priests and pope should be confessing to those like you also instead of selectively amongst themselves!
jmac2112 wrote: I'm sure the pope does confess to those whom he has wronged.
Speculation on your part again!
ThatGirlAgain wrote: Once again, John 20 specifically mentions the Apostles, not the whole Catholic community as receiving the power to grant or withhold absolution. This power is passed on by the Apostolic Succession to the ordained clergy.
John 5:16 disagrees!

Consider also IF they were allegedly ' given the power to forgive sins or retain them ' the teaching that this Story book jesus had ' taken away all our sins or atoned for them ' is yet another falsehood and misnomer, else no power would be required ' after the alleged fact ' to keep on ' forgiving or retaining ' any residual sins?.
Composer wrote:
jmac2112 wrote: But if you're looking for a debate, perhaps a debate forum would be better. You can also go over to the good folks at Catholic Answers if you want to hear the Catholic side of things. They have debate forums, too.
A Link would be good for starters?
ThatGirlAgain wrote: Here is Catholic Answers: http://www.catholic.com/
Here is the Forums link: http://forums.catholic.com/index.php
Many thanks, I'll have to check to see if I have already been there and what excuses they have come up with if I already have!

Thanks for your input!
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

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Post #8

Post by jedicri »

Composer wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote: The biblical justification given for Confession is:
John 20:22-23
22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
1. Can't see where it says " Confess to Priests? ".

2. I remind catholics of what it does clearly state (James 5:16) which is dumped and overridden by catholics in preference for other quotes? - Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, . . . . (James 5:16) catholic edition RSV 1966

Unambiguously clear that confession is to be ' towards one another ' and NOT exclusively to priests!
ThatGirlAgain wrote: It was Protestantism that abandoned the practice of private confession to a priest. Luther himself objected only to its mandatory and sacramental nature and lamented that his followers were abandoning it completely. (Ref). In addition to countering various claims of Protestantism, the Council of Trent re-emphasized that Confession was a time honored tradition, justified by the words of Jesus and of a sacramental nature. (Ref)
Well Luther's opinion is Luther's opinion and the Council of Trent a corrupt and biased farce that imposed beliefs absolutely foreign and rejected by the Original (Anti/Non trinitarian) believers.
Composer wrote:
jmac2112 wrote: Also, we pray for one another, even our enemies, for the obvious reason, namely that we wish God to give each of us what is best according to His will.
Considering you people apparently believe your god has made things as they are for a purpose, then you are refuting that and interfering in trying to persuade the enemies your god made, in to what you want them to be instead of leaving them as you claim your god created them and intended them to be. Unfortunately your god has manipulated some to become your enemies and then you want to manipulate them again for your sake?
ThatGirlAgain wrote: The Catholic view of God’s Plan is how man can obtain freedom for original sin and find salvation via the sacrifice of Christ and the action of the Catholic Church that Christ established. (Ref) The idea of every detail of the world being God’s Plan is often mentioned, usually in response to some tragedy, but it is not doctrinal.
1. The catholic view is a view expressed by frauds that preach a gospel foreign and rejected by the Original (NON trinitarian) believers.

2. As I already proved the notion and claim of original sin, even according to the bible text itself is proved to be another chrsitian ideological lie! (I can provide again such proofs any time.)

3. Story book christ is a Story book mythical character and hence itself incapable of doing anything itself including establishing ANY literal church and even IF one were hypothetically initiated, it was NOT trinitarian in thought, word or ideological nature; but quite the opposite.

Story book Jesus is a mythical character and could not have founded anything, including a church. He died in Story book bible land and the Original believers that followed did not found a church either, because they thought that he was coming back soon as the Story book jesus had promised! (Another jesus' lie)

They just kept going to the Temple and Synagogues and did not found a church either because they were waiting and anticipating the promise of its early return to occur, which didn't and couldn't because it is a Story book mythical character these duped believers convinced themselves it literally had existed!
Composer wrote: NB: confess your sins to one another?

It doesn't say go and confess to a priest!
jmac2112 wrote: The Bible doesn't say a lot of things. The New Testament wasn't even around for quite a while, but the Church was already in place starting at Pentecost, being led by the Apostles and those whom they appointed, and being guided by the Spirit.
Apart from the corrupt trinitarian catholic Cult's propaganda and empty emotional pleads for credibility, what actual legitimate evidence do any catholics think they have for us to scrutinise?
ThatGirlAgain wrote: Actually as I have referenced above, there is Biblical justification for Confession. And don’t forget that Catholic catch-all:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
That doesn't legitimately work for catholics either; as I can also easily demonstrate.
Composer wrote: Likewise it states the priests and pope should be confessing to those like you also instead of selectively amongst themselves!
jmac2112 wrote: I'm sure the pope does confess to those whom he has wronged.
Speculation on your part again!
ThatGirlAgain wrote: Once again, John 20 specifically mentions the Apostles, not the whole Catholic community as receiving the power to grant or withhold absolution. This power is passed on by the Apostolic Succession to the ordained clergy.
John 5:16 disagrees!

Consider also IF they were allegedly ' given the power to forgive sins or retain them ' the teaching that this Story book jesus had ' taken away all our sins or atoned for them ' is yet another falsehood and misnomer, else no power would be required ' after the alleged fact ' to keep on ' forgiving or retaining ' any residual sins?.
Composer wrote:
jmac2112 wrote: But if you're looking for a debate, perhaps a debate forum would be better. You can also go over to the good folks at Catholic Answers if you want to hear the Catholic side of things. They have debate forums, too.
A Link would be good for starters?
ThatGirlAgain wrote: Here is Catholic Answers: http://www.catholic.com/
Here is the Forums link: http://forums.catholic.com/index.php
Many thanks, I'll have to check to see if I have already been there and what excuses they have come up with if I already have!

Thanks for your input!
For someone who does not believe, you take the time to attack and ridicule the Catholic faith for what? Why should you care if you don't believe? Why bother to bring up a topic when you consider the Bible, Jesus to be false? You won't get much of a response; your very words and posts lack charity and humility...

BTW, those guys there at Catholic Answers know their stuff. The rejections you brought up above are answerable and can be refuted.

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Post #9

Post by Composer »

jedicri wrote: For someone who does not believe, you take the time to attack and ridicule the Catholic faith for what? Why should you care if you don't believe?
Because my standards are far superior and I don't want others falling in to the catholic trap of believing their illegitimate Cult minded religion!
jedicri wrote: Why bother to bring up a topic when you consider the Bible, Jesus to be false?
Because I am an Unselfish, benevolent and humble humanitarian, Unlike the greedy and selfish Story book jesus and its wanna-be followers whose fundamental motivation is the lust for the fictional Story book biblical promises of divine rewards!
jedicri wrote: You won't get much of a response; your very words and posts lack charity and humility...
That's what my now ' de-converted catholic Students ' used to spout until they finally paid attention to me sufficiently long enough to realise how they had been misled, lied to and deceived by Religion and by the catholic Cult religion especially, that some if not all their parents used to beat them to believe in!

e.g. From real cases: " Daddy, Mummy, at Maths school we learn 3 can not possibly be equal to 1? "

That catholic parents typical response: " The trinitarian catholic priests disagree and you will be beaten repeatedly until you accept what they and their trinitarian ' god of love ' says you must accept! ".
jedicri wrote: BTW, those guys there at Catholic Answers know their stuff. The rejections you brought up above are answerable and can be refuted.
That isn't the case I have experienced personally over my personal 50 years of successfully saving several catholics and others from their Cult and history also records that unless others have accepted what these ' trinitarian catholic experts ' have to offer regarding their ' trinitarian god of love ', they tortured you, imprisoned you and committed atrocities against you until you capitulated OR else be tortured to death, burned alive, boiled in oil etc. if you continue to refuse their (ahem) trinitarian god of love! '. (LOL!)

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Post #10

Post by Wootah »

Composer wrote:Thanks for that!

catholics appear to be in disagreement with their own bible?

It reads: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, . . . . (James 5:16) catholic edition RSV 1966.

There will be healing if you confess your sins to one another and pray for each other. (James 5:16) Digital catholic bible

NB: confess your sins to one another?

It doesn't say go and confess to a priest!

Likewise it states the priests and pope should be confessing to those like you also instead of selectively amongst themselves!

Thanks again!
There is no logical disagreement there. Priests are part of the 'one another'.

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