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ThatGirlAgain
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Ash Wednesday

Post #1

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

I have seen very few dirty faces in the street today. (Midtown Manhattan) The past couple of years there were more around here. :confused2: Maybe the new Archbishop (Cardinal now!) is enforcing the "got to go to Mass to get ashes" rule. (I would not know.)

Any practicing Catholics out there? Did you get your ashes today? Does your Church require you to attend Mass to get them?
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Post #21

Post by ThatGirlAgain »

Burninglight wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:I was raised Catholic but became a.... :confused2: .... (read my usergroup list, OK?) by the age of 13. However I know the religion very well and can provide the standard answers plus I believe more than average insight. But actually defend it...not my thing, I am afraid. Maybe a real Catholic like jedicri may care to, assuming they have the time to spare.
What is a :confused2: and where is the user group list? :blink:
:confused2: means I do not know what to call myself. I don't really fit into well established descriptions. This is why my title says "This Puppy is a Mongrel" - no specific breed.

The usergroup list is all those blue names on the left hand column of a post. My list got sort of long because of the above reasons. Nothing fit perfectly so I grabbed a bunch of 'close enoughs'.
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Post #22

Post by Burninglight »

ThatGirlAgain wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:I was raised Catholic but became a.... :confused2: .... (read my usergroup list, OK?) by the age of 13. However I know the religion very well and can provide the standard answers plus I believe more than average insight. But actually defend it...not my thing, I am afraid. Maybe a real Catholic like jedicri may care to, assuming they have the time to spare.
What is a :confused2: and where is the user group list? :blink:
:confused2: means I do not know what to call myself. I don't really fit into well established descriptions. This is why my title says "This Puppy is a Mongrel" - no specific breed.

The usergroup list is all those blue names on the left hand column of a post. My list got sort of long because of the above reasons. Nothing fit perfectly so I grabbed a bunch of 'close enoughs'.
Wow, now I understand, what you mean when you say you are :confused2: Thanks for showing me the user group. I can see, however, you are a very mature & intelligent person. I think I can tell you what I pick up from your user's list. IMO, you appear as agnostic. I can't blame you for leaving Catholicism, but you seem to have have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

I left the Catholic church but not Christ. The Catholic church trys to get their adherents into a system. IOW, they say in so many ways that Christ came and left us a system and the Catholic church claims the monopoly on it.

I don't need their system of unscriptual rules and bondage; I can go directly to Christ. Anyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ will be saved without an organized system of dos and don'ts. Christ said "Learn of me my yoke is easy and my burden is light." The Bible states in a question: "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?" Yet most do.

Jesus said, "Board is the way that leads to death, but the way to life is straight and narrow and few find it." I hope my sister you find your way out of :confused2:

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Re: Jesus had brothers from the same mother

Post #23

Post by jedicri »

Burninglight wrote:I can't help thinking of poor Joseph. He married Mary to leave her a virgin? No man marry's to leave his wife a virgin that I know of. Even couples that can't have children have sex. Mary had sex with Joseph after Jesus was born; let's call a spade a spade! Joseph had respect to wait until after her pregnancy to come in unto her. She was no virgin when he got done with her unless Joseph was a born a eunuch.
You are thinking carnally as the early Church Fathers would say.

It has already been pointed out to you that "not until" does not mean "did not...until after." "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Verse references given above throughout the Bible demonstrate other such examples as well.

Further, Mary's question "How shall this be?" in response to the angel's announcemnt that she will conceive demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

I again ask you, who is Elizabeth's Lord when she says "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Who is Elizabeth's Lord but Jesus, the son of Mary. Because Mary is Jesus' mother, she is the Mother of God.

Look at these verses and tell me if you still think she remained virgin:


•Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
Again "not until" does not mean "did not...until after." "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus.
•Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
•Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
•Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
•John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
•Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
•1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
•Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
"An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters. But such obvious scriptures are not without their response from Catholic Theologians. The primary argument against these biblical texts is as follows:

In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.

There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.

•Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
•Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenters father? In other words, mother here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though carpenters son refers to Joseph, and mother refers to Mary, brothers does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers."
Re: the bolded parts: Incorrect. Throughout Scripture, cousins are called "brothers" (in Greek, adelphoi) because there is no word for "cousin" in Hebrew or Aramaic.

Why do Catholics want to believe Mary was a virgin so badly? Is it so they can pray to her because they feel Jesus is not enough??????????????? :-k :-k :-k
Why do non-Catholics obstinately want to believe so badly that Mary was not a virgin even though, upon thorough investigation of Scripture, the claim is so baseless?

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Post #24

Post by jedicri »

Burninglight wrote:I left the Catholic church but not Christ. The Catholic church trys to get their adherents into a system. IOW, they say in so many ways that Christ came and left us a system and the Catholic church claims the monopoly on it.

I don't need their system of unscriptual rules and bondage; I can go directly to Christ. Anyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ will be saved without an organized system of dos and don'ts. Christ said "Learn of me my yoke is easy and my burden is light." The Bible states in a question: "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?" Yet most do.

Jesus said, "Board is the way that leads to death, but the way to life is straight and narrow and few find it." I hope my sister you find your way out of :confused2:
Burninglight, if Christ intended that anyone can go directly to Him, then He would not have chosen the Twelve to be the leaders of His Church and they thereby appoint successors to them for the future of the Church.

“'...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?� Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.' Cyprian, On Unity, 6 (A.D. 251).

"Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree,--when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated." Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 5 (A.D. 256).

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Post #25

Post by Burninglight »

jedicri wrote:
Burninglight wrote:I left the Catholic church but not Christ. The Catholic church trys to get their adherents into a system. IOW, they say in so many ways that Christ came and left us a system and the Catholic church claims the monopoly on it.

I don't need their system of unscriptual rules and bondage; I can go directly to Christ. Anyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ will be saved without an organized system of dos and don'ts. Christ said "Learn of me my yoke is easy and my burden is light." The Bible states in a question: "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?" Yet most do.

Jesus said, "Board is the way that leads to death, but the way to life is straight and narrow and few find it." I hope my sister you find your way out of :confused2:
Burninglight, if Christ intended that anyone can go directly to Him, then He would not have chosen the Twelve to be the leaders of His Church and they thereby appoint successors to them for the future of the Church.

“'...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?� Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.' Cyprian, On Unity, 6 (A.D. 251).

"Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree,--when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated." Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 5 (A.D. 256).Why do non-Catholics obstinately want to believe so badly that Mary was not a virgin even though, upon thorough investigation of Scripture, the claim is so baseless?
There is a verse in the Bible that sates that God has made us all kings and priest unto our God and that we have no need that a man teach us and the Spirit of truth will lead us. That is for those of us that are not committing idolatry. Do you know which verses I am talking about or do you need me to cite the verses from the Bible.

You make many false claims; for instance, Muslims are non-Catholics who believe as I that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. I do stress "Was" for she had other children after Christ.

We who have accepted the Lord as our savior are saints not less than Peter, Paul or Mary. I will not make a God of the Catholic Church or any religion. Christ hated religion; it was what nailed Him to the cross. It was the religious leaders of His time such as the Scribes and Pharisees much like the leaders in the Catholic church.

You say I am being carnal like the Bible speaks of, because I believe Mary had sex after Christ was born. No where in the Bible is anyone accused of being carnal for believing that Mary knew Joseph and begot children by him who ended up being Jesus' brothers and sisters.
If I was seeking after sex, money and power in this life and not after Christ then you can say I am being carnal like the Bible says. pfft. You have grossly used it out of context like all the other attempted unscriptural justifications for believing Mary should be prayed to as if she were on equal footing with God like Jesus.

Didn't you know Jesus is the word of God? He is the word that God used to create Mary. All things were made by Jesus, through Jesus, and for Jesus. Please stop trying to convince me into Idolatry. I want no parts of that hersey. You must know deep down in your heart I am right.

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Post #26

Post by jedicri »

Burninglight wrote:
jedicri wrote:
Burninglight wrote:I left the Catholic church but not Christ. The Catholic church trys to get their adherents into a system. IOW, they say in so many ways that Christ came and left us a system and the Catholic church claims the monopoly on it.

I don't need their system of unscriptual rules and bondage; I can go directly to Christ. Anyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ will be saved without an organized system of dos and don'ts. Christ said "Learn of me my yoke is easy and my burden is light." The Bible states in a question: "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?" Yet most do.

Jesus said, "Board is the way that leads to death, but the way to life is straight and narrow and few find it." I hope my sister you find your way out of :confused2:
Burninglight, if Christ intended that anyone can go directly to Him, then He would not have chosen the Twelve to be the leaders of His Church and they thereby appoint successors to them for the future of the Church.

“'...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?� Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.' Cyprian, On Unity, 6 (A.D. 251).

"Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree,--when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated." Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 5 (A.D. 256).Why do non-Catholics obstinately want to believe so badly that Mary was not a virgin even though, upon thorough investigation of Scripture, the claim is so baseless?
There is a verse in the Bible that sates that God has made us all kings and priest unto our God and that we have no need that a man teach us and the Spirit of truth will lead us. That is for those of us that are not committing idolatry. Do you know which verses I am talking about or do you need me to cite the verses from the Bible.

You make many false claims; for instance, Muslims are non-Catholics who believe as I that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. I do stress "Was" for she had other children after Christ.

We who have accepted the Lord as our savior are saints not less than Peter, Paul or Mary. I will not make a God of the Catholic Church or any religion. Christ hated religion; it was what nailed Him to the cross. It was the religious leaders of His time such as the Scribes and Pharisees much like the leaders in the Catholic church.

You say I am being carnal like the Bible speaks of, because I believe Mary had sex after Christ was born. No where in the Bible is anyone accused of being carnal for believing that Mary knew Joseph and begot children by him who ended up being Jesus' brothers and sisters.
If I was seeking after sex, money and power in this life and not after Christ then you can say I am being carnal like the Bible says. pfft. You have grossly used it out of context like all the other attempted unscriptural justifications for believing Mary should be prayed to as if she were on equal footing with God like Jesus.

Didn't you know Jesus is the word of God? He is the word that God used to create Mary. All things were made by Jesus, through Jesus, and for Jesus. Please stop trying to convince me into Idolatry. I want no parts of that hersey. You must know deep down in your heart I am right.
No. You are in error by the mere fact that you refuse to admit or accept the facts shown to you as shown above, ie. the explanation of "not until", Mary's question of "how shall this be?", how Mary is the mother of God, and that your explanation of Jesus having "brothers" is untenable by virtue of the fact that the word "cousin" does not exist in Hebrew and Aramaic so the writer had to use the word "brother".

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Brother

Post #27

Post by Burninglight »

No. You are in error by the mere fact that you refuse to admit or accept the facts shown to you as shown above, ie. the explanation of "not until", Mary's question of "how shall this be?", how Mary is the mother of God, and that your explanation of Jesus having "brothers" is untenable by virtue of the fact that the word "cousin" does not exist in Hebrew and Aramaic so the writer had to use the word "brother".
Yes, this is why we have tot rely on the context of the script. Context shows that Mary gave Jesus his siblings who are of the same mother but of a different father indeed.

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Re: Brother

Post #28

Post by jedicri »

Burninglight wrote:
No. You are in error by the mere fact that you refuse to admit or accept the facts shown to you as shown above, ie. the explanation of "not until", Mary's question of "how shall this be?", how Mary is the mother of God, and that your explanation of Jesus having "brothers" is untenable by virtue of the fact that the word "cousin" does not exist in Hebrew and Aramaic so the writer had to use the word "brother".
Yes, this is why we have tot rely on the context of the script. Context shows that Mary gave Jesus his siblings who are of the same mother but of a different father indeed.
Your point cannot stand unless you can reconcile it with the proper explanation of "not until" and Mary's question of "How shall this be...?".

Moreover, context shows that these "brothers" are actually His cousins as previously posted:

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as "the other Mary."

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.

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Post #29

Post by His Name Is John »

I always get the ashes. But I wipe them off before leaving the Church. It says in the reading that day that Jesus says not to put on ash, but to do it in privet, so I don't see how that fits with us all walking around with ash on our heads.

I am willing to be told why my view is wrong.
“People generally quarrel because they cannot argue.�
- G.K. Chesterton

“A detective story generally describes six living men discussing how it is that a man is dead. A modern philosophic story generally describes six dead men discussing how any man can possibly be alive.�
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Re: Brother

Post #30

Post by Burninglight »

jedicri wrote:
Burninglight wrote:
No. You are in error by the mere fact that you refuse to admit or accept the facts shown to you as shown above, ie. the explanation of "not until", Mary's question of "how shall this be?", how Mary is the mother of God, and that your explanation of Jesus having "brothers" is untenable by virtue of the fact that the word "cousin" does not exist in Hebrew and Aramaic so the writer had to use the word "brother".
Yes, this is why we have tot rely on the context of the script. Context shows that Mary gave Jesus his siblings who are of the same mother but of a different father indeed.
Your point cannot stand unless you can reconcile it with the proper explanation of "not until" and Mary's question of "How shall this be...?".

Moreover, context shows that these "brothers" are actually His cousins as previously posted:

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as "the other Mary."

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.
Okay, friend I don't want to argue with you. It just seems to me you want them to be His cousins. The Greek word is the same for brother as well.

I believe they were his brothers and you believe cousins. Be that as it may. No where in the Bible is Mary refered to as Mother of God and no where are we admonished to pray to her or the saints.

In light of that, I conclude that Mary was blessed among woman, and that is as far as her blessings go in my understanding and in which seems to be the understanding of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul as well! Just trust Jesus for your salvation, and I will too. Let's not argue; it gets us nowhere fast.
Peace O:)

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