spiritual segregation in heaven?

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frm_alterboy
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spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #1

Post by frm_alterboy »

in catholic school we were taught about the beatific vision which, according to wikipedia, is the ultimate direct self communication of God to the individual person. Each person would get varying degrees of this privilege based on how well they behaved on earth.

my problem with this is, it would appear, heaven is better for some than others. Why wouldn't heaven be it's own reward and equal for all inhabitants? so, for someone who dedicated their life to god, they get a 90% BV and those who snuck in via a death bed confession get 10%.

assuming we keep our free will up there, wouldn't this lead to jealousy and other feelings of disfavor? I would rather opt for the death bed entrance, because after all, heaven should still be heaven. it's supposed to be ultimate joy. how can you have more when you're already in the max state?

TomD
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Re: spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #2

Post by TomD »

frm_alterboy wrote: in catholic school we were taught about the beatific vision which, according to wikipedia, is the ultimate direct self communication of God to the individual person. Each person would get varying degrees of this privilege based on how well they behaved on earth.
The Fathers based that idea on an exegesis of Mark 4:20: "And these are they who are sown upon the good ground, who hear the word, and receive it, and yield fruit, the one thirty, another sixty, and another a hundred."
So the reward is according to effort?
frm_alterboy wrote:my problem with this is, it would appear, heaven is better for some than others. Why wouldn't heaven be it's own reward and equal for all inhabitants?
It is ... how can 'heaven' be 30% heaven and therefore 70% not heaven? 60% heaven and 40% not heaven?

We cannot look at these things materially, or empirically. So I would suggest some would receive reward 100-fold, some 60-fold, some 30-fold, but whatever reward we receive, we'll be 100% happy with it!
frm_alterboy wrote:so, for someone who dedicated their life to god, they get a 90% BV and those who snuck in via a death bed confession get 10%.
Hmm ... what about the robber on the cross?
frm_alterboy wrote:assuming we keep our free will up there, wouldn't this lead to jealousy and other feelings of disfavor?
No, because we will have been 'perfected' by the Grace of God. There's no sin in heaven.
frm_alterboy wrote:I would rather opt for the death bed entrance ...
You mean, 'live it up' now and confess all at the last minute? Doesn't work ... because your heart would not be in it. Faith is not an insurance policy. And you can't fool the Gov'nor!
frm_alterboy wrote:... how can you have more when you're already in the max state?
There's many mansions, remember ... doesn't say they're all the same.

God bless,

Thomas

frm_alterboy
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Re: spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #3

Post by frm_alterboy »

[quote]
No, because we will have been 'perfected' by the Grace of God. There's no sin in heaven.

lucifer managed to get around this, plus he didn't seem to be too happy up there. if he can't be happy in heaven, and he's the second greatest thing ever created, isn't it possible for us to eventually get tired of it as well?

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Re: spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #4

Post by TomD »

frm_alterboy wrote: lucifer managed to get around this, plus he didn't seem to be too happy up there.
Well, we're into speculative territory now, aren't we?
frm_alterboy wrote: if he can't be happy in heaven, and he's the second greatest thing ever created, isn't it possible for us to eventually get tired of it as well?
Er ... he's not the second. Man is higher than the angels, although as spiritual beings, angels are more perfect than men ... but that's another discussion.

Angels aren't perfect, if they were, they couldn't fall. When the days comes, they will be perfect — incorruptible — as we will be.

The heaven we look forward to is whatever we will be after the Resurrection and the Judgement. According to St Paul, we will be immortal, and incorruptible ... so we will be 'bodies', but our bodies won't be quite the same as they are now. What or how they will be, I have no idea. No-one does.

I quite like to Moslem Tradition. They say God created the angels, and then created man, and God told the angels that man was the best day's work He'd ever done. Lucifer took one look at Adam and said, "You gotta be joking!"

God bless

Thomas

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Post #5

Post by frm_alterboy »

i'd have to agree with the Moslem Tradition as well. if i were an angel and i saw man, i'd probably question god's judgement as well.

thanks tom, have a good day!

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Re: spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #6

Post by The Tongue »

frm_alterboy wrote: in catholic school we were taught about the beatific vision which, according to wikipedia, is the ultimate direct self communication of God to the individual person. Each person would get varying degrees of this privilege based on how well they behaved on earth.

my problem with this is, it would appear, heaven is better for some than others. Why wouldn't heaven be it's own reward and equal for all inhabitants? so, for someone who dedicated their life to god, they get a 90% BV and those who snuck in via a death bed confession get 10%.

assuming we keep our free will up there, wouldn't this lead to jealousy and other feelings of disfavor? I would rather opt for the death bed entrance, because after all, heaven should still be heaven. it's supposed to be ultimate joy. how can you have more when you're already in the max state?
I suppose a good analogy of the class system in heaven, could be seen in the fact that heaven is a big, big, place and you need some form of transport to get around. The better the life you lived on earth, the more expensive the vehicle that is supplied.

A Rolls Royce was out of the question for the likes of myself, and I was lucky to be supplied with a Mo-ped. It was so embarrassing riding around heaven on that little put, put, until I saw the Pope on a skate board.

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Re: spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #7

Post by Divine Insight »

frm_alterboy wrote: Each person would get varying degrees of this privilege based on how well they behaved on earth.

my problem with this is, it would appear, heaven is better for some than others.
Well, it's right in the Gospels supposedly from Jesus the Christ himself according to the Gospel of Matthew:

Matt.5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If the Gospels can be trusted to be the WORD of God and Jesus, then yes, there will definitely be people in heaven who will be considered to be the "least" in the kingdom of heaven, and those who will be called "great" in the kingdom of heaven.

So evidently according to Jesus heaven will be nothing more than a glorified soap opera complete with differently levels of classes of citizens. Those who will be considered "great" and those who will be considered the "least", and no doubt a whole range of characters in between.

This also makes it crystal clear that when you go to heaven your Earthy sins will NOT be forgiven. How could they be said to have been forgiven if they are going to be held against you for the rest of eternity? :-k

So you can either try to make sense of this to salvage these myths. Or you can recognize that these myths are so riddled with absurd contradictions that they simply can't be true.

That of course is your choice. ;)

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Re: spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #8

Post by The Tongue »

Divine Insight wrote:
frm_alterboy wrote: Each person would get varying degrees of this privilege based on how well they behaved on earth.

my problem with this is, it would appear, heaven is better for some than others.
Well, it's right in the Gospels supposedly from Jesus the Christ himself according to the Gospel of Matthew:

Matt.5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If the Gospels can be trusted to be the WORD of God and Jesus, then yes, there will definitely be people in heaven who will be considered to be the "least" in the kingdom of heaven, and those who will be called "great" in the kingdom of heaven.

So evidently according to Jesus heaven will be nothing more than a glorified soap opera complete with differently levels of classes of citizens. Those who will be considered "great" and those who will be considered the "least", and no doubt a whole range of characters in between.

This also makes it crystal clear that when you go to heaven your Earthy sins will NOT be forgiven. How could they be said to have been forgiven if they are going to be held against you for the rest of eternity? :-k

So you can either try to make sense of this to salvage these myths. Or you can recognize that these myths are so riddled with absurd contradictions that they simply can't be true.

That of course is your choice. ;)
[Divine Insight wrote]......This also makes it crystal clear that when you go to heaven your Earthy sins will NOT be forgiven. How could they be said to have been forgiven if they are going to be held against you for the rest of eternity? :-k

Good heavens matey, you come up with some ridiculous statements sometimes.

In my working life, I was once rejected as unfit for a position that I had applied for, not on the ground that I wasn't qualified for the job in question, but because I was over qualified, and was advised to apply for a higher position.

The sins of all who enter heaven are forgiven, but there countless positions in heaven to be filled, and each righteous personality will be given the position that they have proven themselves to be qualified to handle.

Owing to your hatred for the christian religion, you come up with some infantile rubbish in your attempts to attack the teachings of the Holy Scriptures.

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Re: spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

The Tongue wrote: Good heavens matey, you come up with some ridiculous statements sometimes.

In my working life, I was once rejected as unfit for a position that I had applied for, not on the ground that I wasn't qualified for the job in question, but because I was over qualified, and was advised to apply for a higher position.

The sins of all who enter heaven are forgiven, but there countless positions in heaven to be filled, and each righteous personality will be given the position that they have proven themselves to be qualified to handle.
Why would their be jobs that needed to be done in heaven? That implies that heaven is far from perfect and there is much work that needs to be done.

Also why would one "job" in heaven be considered "great" whilst another considered to be "least". Would not a gardener in heaven be just as important as any other job?
The Tongue wrote: Owing to your hatred for the christian religion, you come up with some infantile rubbish in your attempts to attack the teachings of the Holy Scriptures.
As per all of your posts, you can never refrain from making personal attacks.

I point out the absurdities and contradictions in these ancient myths, and you twist that into hatred.

Where is there any hatred? All I've done is point out the fact that even in the Christian Gossips Jesus himself is quoted as saying that there will be inequality in heaven.

If you point to that observation as being "hatred" then clearly this can only reveal that you feel that this is an undesirable situation. Therefore your "hatred" is aimed toward Jesus, not me. I'm not the one who demands that there will be inequality in heaven.

On the contrary I reject this notion as being absurd.

It flies in the face of heaven being a desirable place that everyone should strive for. It also flies in the face of the idea that people who come to Jesus will have their sins washed away by his blood and be forgiven. They can hardly be said to be "forgiven" of their sins if those sins are going to be held against them for all of eternity.

Also, your attempt to justify this by claiming that some people are better suited to certain jobs than others can't work. In this religion God is the one who is given credit for having bestowed us with our talents. Therefore if there are people in heaven who are less qualified than others that can only be the creator's fault for not having created everyone with equivalently valuable talent.

These ancient fables and rumors are riddled with inconsistencies like this and there's no way to get around this fact other than to do like me and recognize that this religion is indeed clearly false.

You can't very well have Jesus being the sacrificial lamb of God who was crucified to pay for the sin of man, and then have him holding mans sins against him for eternity in heaven. That wouldn't be much of a "savior". It would also fly in the face that he paid for anyone's sins, or that he forgives sins. Both of which are extremely important ideals in this religion.

We can see by the words attributed to Jesus that there will be people who will be the "least" in heaven. And that very notion requires that they have not been forgiven of their sins, but instead they are doing to be considered to be "lesser" citizens of heaven for the rest of eternity.

These are simply blatant contradictions in this religion that I point out for the sake of those who may not have recognized the importance of these kinds of contradictions.

I don't "hate" Christianity anymore than I "hate" Greek mythology. I just realize that it's a false myth. Why allow people to continue to be scammed by a false myth when it's so easy to point out why the myth necessarily has to be false?

If this threatens your dream of a wonderful afterlife there is no need to fear. There exist other religions that also promise a wonderful afterlife but they don't contain all these contradictions and absurdities. So you can keep your dream alive by simply seeking out a spiritual philosophy that isn't riddled with these kinds of grave contradictions. ;)

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Re: spiritual segregation in heaven?

Post #10

Post by ttruscott »

The forces that destroy free will, coercion and constraint will be as prevelant in heaven as they are in the Trinity; coercions of duty and contraints of love. Therefore no free will. But make no mistake, within these confines of no free will, we will still have decision making abilities, just like we do here on earth with no free will.

But as per those who work more and stand in longer geting a better reward, sure, why not?

If we were all created at the same time pre-earth and we all made our choices by true free will to accept GOD at about the same time, who can fuss that they were created late to the party? Our free will decisions set the table we will eat from, imho.

How rewards works will be something like this; everyone's glass of GOD's joy, and glory will be full but the longer time one has been (w)holy commited to GOD will give you a bigger glass.

We all chose how close to the throne we want to be and that is where we will stand.


Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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