Worship of Mary not Biblical

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Worship of Mary not Biblical

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In the Bible, God makes it clear that we are to worship no other God. Christ said that the only way to salvation was through him. The Bible also makes it clear that the only way to communicate to God is by prayer through Jesus Christ. So, if this is the case, why do Catholics pray to Mary. She did not die for our sins. She did not suffer crucifixion and she certainly did not raise from the dead, nor has she ascended into Heaven. She is, like the rest of the believers, asleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection. She is not seated in Heaven (only Christ and the Angels are in Heaven).

I walked into a Catholic Church recently to be confronted with a huge portrait of the glorified Mary above the pulpit and a small crucifix of Christ off to one side. The combined image places Christ still on the Cross, whilst Mary is a glorified being complete with a halo. This image does not fit with the Bible and it is a complete and utter false representation of who and why we worship.

I grew up a Catholic and we were taught from an early age to pray to Mary. We were hardly ever taught to pray to God or Jesus. I am no longer a Catholic. My religious beliefs are personal and I follow, as much as I am able to, the dictates of the Bible, as handed down by the apostles and Christ and not some established false religion.

Here's my challenge to Catholics, prove, from the Bible, that God commanded us to pray to anyone other than God and his glorified son Jesus.

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Re: Worship of Mary not Biblical

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dragonthief wrote: In the Bible, God makes it clear that we are to worship no other God. Christ said that the only way to salvation was through him. The Bible also makes it clear that the only way to communicate to God is by prayer through Jesus Christ. So, if this is the case, why do Catholics pray to Mary. She did not die for our sins. She did not suffer crucifixion and she certainly did not raise from the dead, nor has she ascended into Heaven. She is, like the rest of the believers, asleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection. She is not seated in Heaven (only Christ and the Angels are in Heaven).

I walked into a Catholic Church recently to be confronted with a huge portrait of the glorified Mary above the pulpit and a small crucifix of Christ off to one side. The combined image places Christ still on the Cross, whilst Mary is a glorified being complete with a halo. This image does not fit with the Bible and it is a complete and utter false representation of who and why we worship.

I grew up a Catholic and we were taught from an early age to pray to Mary. We were hardly ever taught to pray to God or Jesus. I am no longer a Catholic. My religious beliefs are personal and I follow, as much as I am able to, the dictates of the Bible, as handed down by the apostles and Christ and not some established false religion.

Here's my challenge to Catholics, prove, from the Bible, that God commanded us to pray to anyone other than God and his glorified son Jesus.

Obviously, you don't understand Catholicism. There is the concept of 'Intersession'. They don't worship Mary or the Saints, they are requesting that the saint or Mary are an intermediary to God.

SO, it is a 'straw man' for you to claim they are 'worshiping' Mary.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Re: Worship of Mary not Biblical

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Goat wrote:
Obviously, you don't understand Catholicism. There is the concept of 'Intersession'. They don't worship Mary or the Saints, they are requesting that the saint or Mary are an intermediary to God.

SO, it is a 'straw man' for you to claim they are 'worshiping' Mary.
Christ said there is only one intermediary through which we can intercede and that is Christ. Mary and the Saints are not in Heaven. They are in the grave, awaiting the resurrection, as are all people who have ever lived. And I beg to differ about worshiping. "Hail Mary, full of grace..." You don't "hail" someone unless they are a Queen a king or a God. To suggests she is "full of grace" is to place her on an equal footing with Christ. Calling her the Mother of God suggests she is greater than Christ.

Oh yes, believe me, everything about Catholicism and their obsession with Mary indicates they see her as much more than human, much more than a saint.

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Re: Worship of Mary not Biblical

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dragonthief wrote: In the Bible, God makes it clear that we are to worship no other God. Christ said that the only way to salvation was through him. The Bible also makes it clear that the only way to communicate to God is by prayer through Jesus Christ. So, if this is the case, why do Catholics pray to Mary. She did not die for our sins. She did not suffer crucifixion and she certainly did not raise from the dead, nor has she ascended into Heaven. She is, like the rest of the believers, asleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection. She is not seated in Heaven (only Christ and the Angels are in Heaven).

I walked into a Catholic Church recently to be confronted with a huge portrait of the glorified Mary above the pulpit and a small crucifix of Christ off to one side. The combined image places Christ still on the Cross, whilst Mary is a glorified being complete with a halo. This image does not fit with the Bible and it is a complete and utter false representation of who and why we worship.

I grew up a Catholic and we were taught from an early age to pray to Mary. We were hardly ever taught to pray to God or Jesus. I am no longer a Catholic. My religious beliefs are personal and I follow, as much as I am able to, the dictates of the Bible, as handed down by the apostles and Christ and not some established false religion.

Here's my challenge to Catholics, prove, from the Bible, that God commanded us to pray to anyone other than God and his glorified son Jesus.
Why do you care what and who people pray to? Seems like sour grapes.

Let people pray to whoever they want.


Frankly, I'm thankful the Catholics have retained some of Goddess worship in their religion. Protestants tend to be either overly masculine, or make Jesus strangely androgynous - which has it's roots in Egypt and other religions.

I think woman should be honored as much as men.
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Re: Worship of Mary not Biblical

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Post by Goat »

dragonthief wrote:
Goat wrote:
Obviously, you don't understand Catholicism. There is the concept of 'Intersession'. They don't worship Mary or the Saints, they are requesting that the saint or Mary are an intermediary to God.

SO, it is a 'straw man' for you to claim they are 'worshiping' Mary.
Christ said there is only one intermediary through which we can intercede and that is Christ. Mary and the Saints are not in Heaven. They are in the grave, awaiting the resurrection, as are all people who have ever lived. And I beg to differ about worshiping. "Hail Mary, full of grace..." You don't "hail" someone unless they are a Queen a king or a God. To suggests she is "full of grace" is to place her on an equal footing with Christ. Calling her the Mother of God suggests she is greater than Christ.

Oh yes, believe me, everything about Catholicism and their obsession with Mary indicates they see her as much more than human, much more than a saint.

Obviously, the Catholics disagree with your interpretation.

It's so fun to see how different Christians tell other Christians how wrong they are.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Christian on Christian violence... You'd think Prot's would look at Ireland and be ashamed of the fight they've instigated.
But, as we see from Sunni and Shiite fighting, there is no love lost among Fundi's.

It's odd that they just can't let someone be Christian in their own way, but they have to control how someone worships Christ. What a horrible, horrible religion that allows this kind of insanity.
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Post #7

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Ooberman wrote: Christian on Christian violence... You'd think Prot's would look at Ireland and be ashamed of the fight they've instigated.
But, as we see from Sunni and Shiite fighting, there is no love lost among Fundi's.

It's odd that they just can't let someone be Christian in their own way, but they have to control how someone worships Christ. What a horrible, horrible religion that allows this kind of insanity.
The conflict in Ireland was mainly economical, although what side of the issue you are one happened because of religion.

It seems to me, the conflict between the various Christian religions is SO much milder than ti is between the Sunni's and the Shiites.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #8

Post by Ooberman »

Goat wrote:
Ooberman wrote: Christian on Christian violence... You'd think Prot's would look at Ireland and be ashamed of the fight they've instigated.
But, as we see from Sunni and Shiite fighting, there is no love lost among Fundi's.

It's odd that they just can't let someone be Christian in their own way, but they have to control how someone worships Christ. What a horrible, horrible religion that allows this kind of insanity.
The conflict in Ireland was mainly economical, although what side of the issue you are one happened because of religion.

It seems to me, the conflict between the various Christian religions is SO much milder than ti is between the Sunni's and the Shiites.

Oh, you and your facts ruining my point... What's the point of bashing religion if I can't make assertions along with them?

But, I would say that the fight from the Reformation, and other examples of in-fighting are still a blemish on a religion. It would be a blemish on anything that claims to be fact - particularly a fact that is supposed to be clear and convincing.

That is, if there was this kind of division among Geologists about Plate Tectonics, it would be a blemish on Geology. (Not all blemishes are horrible, and it's not as if discussion and disagreement should be discouraged).


However, it seems unseemly that a religion - a philosophy of moral values - can't contain in-fighting over what should be rather obvious - particularly in the context (unlike sciences) that Saints and Prophets were speaking directly from God to convey the information.

So, I'm going to declare we are both right... ;-)
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees

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Re: Worship of Mary not Biblical

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Post by Bust Nak »

dragonthief wrote: Christ said there is only one intermediary through which we can intercede and that is Christ. Mary and the Saints are not in Heaven. They are in the grave, awaiting the resurrection, as are all people who have ever lived.
You say that like it's not a mistake Christians make all the time. How many times have you heard someone say "well, he is at a better place now" at a funeral? Besides, Mary and the Saints are in Heaven according to Catholics, not in graves like common people.
And I beg to differ about worshiping. "Hail Mary, full of grace..." You don't "hail" someone unless they are a Queen a king or a God. To suggests she is "full of grace" is to place her on an equal footing with Christ. Calling her the Mother of God suggests she is greater than Christ.
They do think of her as a queen though. Does Queen of the Apostles, or Queen of pease ring any bells? Whether that is equal or greater than Christ or not, is for them to decide, and they'll tell you no, it is not equal or greater.
Oh yes, believe me, everything about Catholicism and their obsession with Mary indicates they see her as much more than human, much more than a saint.
There is a huge theological difference between petitioning Mary to pray for them and praying to Mary.

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Re: Worship of Mary not Biblical

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Post by jedicri »

[Replying to dragonthief]

Allow me just to link an article that addresses your objections and errors:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.



Honoring Saints



Consider how honor is given. We regularly give it to public officials. In the United States it is customary to address a judge as "Your Honor." In the marriage ceremony it used to be said that the wife would "love, honor, and obey" her husband. Letters to legislators are addressed to "The Honorable So-and-So." And just about anyone, living or dead, who bears an exalted rank is said to be worthy of honor, and this is particularly true of historical figures, as when children are (or at least used to be) instructed to honor the Founding Fathers of America.

These practices are entirely Biblical. We are explicitly commanded at numerous points in the Bible to honor certain people. One of the most important commands on this subject is the command to honor one’s parents: "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you" (Ex. 20:12). God considered this command so important that he repeated it multiple times in the Bible (for example, Lev. 19:3, Deut. 5:16, Matt. 15:4, Luke 18:20, and Eph. 6:2–3). It was also important to give honor to one’s elders in general: "You shall rise up before the hoary head, and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the Lord" (Lev. 19:32). It was also important to specially honor religious leaders: "Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron [the high priest], to give him dignity and honor" (Ex. 28:2).

The New Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the Old Testament. The apostle Paul commanded: "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due" (Rom. 13:7). He also stated this as a principle regarding one’s employers: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed" (1 Tim. 6:1). Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter: "Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor" (1 Pet. 2:17).

The New Testament also stresses the importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give them special honor in 1 Timothy: "Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised special blessings to those who honor religious figures: "He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward" (Matt. 10:41).

So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.



Statue Worship?



People who do not know better sometimes say that Catholics worship statues. Not only is this untrue, it is even untrue that Catholics honor statues. After all, a statue is nothing but a carved block of marble or a chunk of plaster, and no one gives honor to marble yet unquarried or to plaster still in the mixing bowl.

The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them.

The use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols) also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God commanded: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be."

In Numbers 21:8–9, he told Moses: "‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." This shows the actual ceremonial use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God (healing from snakebite). In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic representation of Jesus. There was no problem with this statue—God had commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues and idolatry.

When the time came to build the Temple in Jerusalem, God inspired David’s plans for it, which included "his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing from the hand of the Lord concerning it, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

In obedience to this divinely inspired plan, Solomon built two gigantic, golden statues of cherubim: "In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold. The wings of the cherubim together extended twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other cherub; and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing of the first cherub. The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits; the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. And he made the veil of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim on it" (2 Chr. 3:10–14).

(See the Catholic Answers tract, Do Catholics Worship Statutes? for further information.)



Imitation is the Biblical Form of Honor



The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" (1 Cor. 4:16–17). Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:1–2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7).

One of the most important passages on imitation is found in Hebrews. Chapter 11 of that book, the Bible’s well-known "hall of fame" chapter, presents numerous examples of the Old Testament saints for our imitation. It concludes with the famous exhortation: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1)—the race that the saints have run before us.

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