Apostatized From Rome

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Apostatized From Rome

Post #1

Post by WebersHome »

[font=Georgia]-
My mom had me baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church in 1944;
and when old enough; enrolled me in catechism where I eventually
completed First Holy Communion and Confirmation.

My aunt and uncle were Catholics, their son is a Catholic, one of my half
brothers is now a semi retired Friar. My father-in-law was a Catholic, as was
my mother-in-law. Everybody alive on my wife's side are Catholics; her
aunts and uncles, and her cousins. My sister-in-law was a nun for a number
of years before falling out with the hierarchy that controlled her order.

I have things to thank the Church for. It instilled within me an unshakable
confidence in the Holy Bible as a reliable authority in all matters pertaining
to faith and practice. It also instilled within me a trust in the integrity of
Jesus Christ. Very early in my youth; I began to believe that Christ knew
what he was talking about and meant what he said.

I was very proud to be affiliated with Roman Catholicism, and confident as
all get out that it is the one true Christian religion. Some Catholics see red
whenever the Church is criticized and/or critiqued, but I never did. Some
Catholics see criticism and/or critique of the Church's beliefs and practices as
hatred for Catholics. I have never understood that mentality.

Ironically, one of the Church's enemies, the Jehovah's Witnesses, sometimes
react the same way when somebody criticizes and/or critiques the Watch
Tower Society. For some odd reason, it translates in their minds as hatred
for Jehovah's Witnesses. I think some people have trouble telling the
difference between a sport and a sport's fans; if you know what I mean.

Oddly, though I was confident that the Bible is a reliable authority in all
matters pertaining to faith and practice; I had never actually sat down and
read it. A co-worker in a metal shop where I worked as a welder in 1968
suggested that I buy one and see for myself what it says.

Everything went smoothly till I got to the New Testament, and in no time at
all I began to realize that Rome does not always agree with the Holy Bible;
nor does it always agree with Christ. Well; that was unacceptable with me
because I was, and still am, confident that the Holy Bible is a reliable
authority in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, and that Christ knew
what he was talking about and meant what he said.

Well; I soon became confronted with a very serious decision. Do I continue
to follow Rome and its catechism, or do I switch to following Christ and the
Holy Bible?

The decision was a no-brainer due to my confidence in the Holy Bible as a
reliable authority in all matters pertaining to faith and practice; and due to
my trust in Jesus Christ's integrity-- that he knew what he was talking about
and meant what he said. So here I am today 48 years later still a Protestant.

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Re: The Conscience

Post #21

Post by Ancient of Years »

ttruscott wrote:
WebersHome wrote:
Ancient of Years wrote:[font=Georgia]As can be seen in the Greek text here, the passage does include the word ‘perfect’ , (teleiOsai G5048). Nothing was penciled in.[/font]
[font=Georgia]The word teleioÏŒsai is enclosed with guillemets in the Greek interlinear of the
Strong's Concordance to indicate that it's not actually in the Greek text.

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Not at http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9-9.htm either...
I am confused. Which is not at Hebrews 9:9? The word teleiOsai or the guillemets? From what I can see the word is there but the guillemets are not.
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

William Blake

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Unpardonable Sin

Post #22

Post by WebersHome »

[font=Georgia]-
According to the Catholic Catechism, CCC 1035, when people die with even
just one(1) un-absolved mortal sin to their credit, they go directly to hell
and eternal suffering-- no stopover in a purgatory; it's a direct flight.

So then, if somebody has been a faithful Catholic for say, 45 years, and then
dies with just that one(1) un-absolved mortal sin to their credit, then those
45 years were all for nothing. Those faithful years are stricken from the
record and they face eternity really no better off than if they'd been an
Atheist, a Hindu, or a Muslim all their lives: and according to the Catechism;
there is no absolution in the afterlife.

CCC 393 . . It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in
the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. There is
no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance
for men after death.

Just how difficult is it to commit a Bible-grade mortal sin? It's a piece of
cake. All that the offender has to do is already know in advance that the act
they are about to perform is forbidden.

This means mortal sins cannot be done "accidentally." A person who
commits a mortal sin is one who knows that their act is wrong, but chooses
to go through with it anyway.

†. Num 15:30-31 . . But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts
defiantly reviles Yhvh; that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Because he has spurned the word of Yhvh and violated His commandment;
that person shall be cut off-- he bears his guilt.

†. Heb 10:26-28 . .If we sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the
truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment
and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

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Re: Unpardonable Sin

Post #23

Post by Ancient of Years »

WebersHome wrote: Just how difficult is it to commit a Bible-grade mortal sin? It's a piece of
cake. All that the offender has to do is already know in advance that the act
they are about to perform is forbidden.
Wrong again.

You are leaving out that it must be a grave matter such as murder or adultery. And there must be full knowledge and consent, not ameliorated by unintentional ignorance.

Your criticisms of Catholicism seem to be of the same character as your criticisms of the JWs, based on ignorance of the actual doctrines. Did you ever really receive a Catholic education as you claim?
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother." The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Catholic Catechism
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

William Blake

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Re: Unpardonable Sin

Post #24

Post by WebersHome »

[font=Georgia]-
Q: If there is neither forgiveness nor sacrifice for willful sins as per Num
15:30-31 and Heb 10:26-28, then how is anybody supposed to make it
heaven?

A: There is of course no hope for Roman Catholics because their future
depends very heavily upon personal behavior. Sooner or later even the best
of Roman Catholics go against God in the full knowledge that what they are
doing is wrong.

But the future of Christ's believing followers isn't riding upon the quality of
their behavior. In other words: Christ's believing followers are privileged
with a sort of diplomatic immunity.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not
under any condition.

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Re: Unpardonable Sin

Post #25

Post by Ancient of Years »

WebersHome wrote: [font=Georgia]-
Q: If there is neither forgiveness nor sacrifice for willful sins as per Num
15:30-31 and Heb 10:26-28, then how is anybody supposed to make it
heaven?

A: There is of course no hope for Roman Catholics because their future
depends very heavily upon personal behavior. Sooner or later even the best
of Roman Catholics go against God in the full knowledge that what they are
doing is wrong.

But the future of Christ's believing followers isn't riding upon the quality of
their behavior. In other words: Christ's believing followers are privileged
with a sort of diplomatic immunity.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not
under any condition.

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That is a Protestant Sola Fide view not a Catholic one. No need to defend it here. I am becoming increasingly suspicious that you never had a real Catholic religious education.
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

William Blake

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Post #26

Post by WebersHome »

Ancient of Years wrote:[font=Georgia]That is a Protestant Sola Fide[/font]
[font=Georgia]I cannot speak for all Protestants because there is no universal Protestant
belief system.

Speaking for myself: I do not believe in salvation by faith alone. I believe in
salvation by crucifixion.

Christ's version of Christianity is a lethal religion. It quite literally, in some
mysterious way that I don't quite understand; put Christ's believing
followers to death. Their entire existence, as natural-born human beings,
went up on the cross with him.

†. Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

†. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

†. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

†. Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died

One of my chronic fears as a Roman Catholic was that something fatal would
happen to me in between confessions. Well; you can just imagine my relief
at discovering that people punished on the cross with Christ are in no danger
of double jeopardy; which Webster's defines as: putting someone on trial for
an offense for which they have previously been put on trial under a valid
charge viz: two adjudications for one offense.

The Great White throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is for the purpose of
putting people on trial for the things they did in life. Afterwards they will be
executed by a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a vat of
molten iron.

If I appear at that event at all, it will be only as a spectator and/or a witness
for the prosecution because I was put on trial when Christ was put on the
cross, and I was executed when he was executed. I have no clue how this
works; I only know that I'm supposed to reckon it true. (Rom 6:3-11)

Christ offers a version of Christianity that guarantees a Ten Commandments
proof, God proof, sin proof, Devil proof, temptation proof, fool proof, human
nature proof, human error proof, mortal sin proof, fail-safe rescue from the
wrath of God (John 3:14-18, John 5:24). It just amazes me the number of
people, even those warming pews in old-school Christian churches, who
want nothing to do with it.

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Erotic Fantasies

Post #27

Post by WebersHome »

[font=Georgia]-
Roman Catholicism has helped to shape thousands of warped psyches and
totally unnecessary guilt complexes due to its interpretation of the passage
below.

†. Matt 5:27-28 . .Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou
shalt not commit adultery; but I say unto you: that whosoever looketh on a
woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his
heart.

Before we can even begin to apply what Christ said about adultery; we first
have to categorize the "woman" about whom he spoke. Well; she's obviously
somebody's wife because adultery is defined as voluntary carnal activity
between a married man and someone other than his wife, or between a
married woman and someone other than her husband. In other words; in
order for an incident to qualify as adultery, at least one of the participants
has to be married.

The koiné Greek word for "lust" is epithumeo (ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o) which
means: to set the heart upon.

Setting one's heart upon something is a whole lot different than merely
liking something and wanting it. The one whose heart is set upon something
is in the process of finding a way to get it; and as such comes under the
ruling of covetousness; which reads:

†. Ex 20:17 . .Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not
covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his
ox, nor his burro, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Coveting, per se, isn't a sin. Paul encouraged the Corinthian Christians to
"covet earnestly" the best spiritual gifts (1Cor 12:31) and to covet prophesy
(1Cor 14:39). To "covet earnestly" means you go after something with the
full intention of possessing it.

Ex 20:17 doesn't condemn erotic fantasies nor a healthy male libido, no, it
condemns scheming to take something of your neighbor's instead of getting
your own.

†. Rom 13:14 . . But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not
provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.

The emphasis there is not upon human nature's unlawful desires, but rather,
upon taking steps to fulfill them; which has the distinction of being the
correct interpretation of Matt 5:27-28.

So then, are Ex 20:17 and Matt 5:27-28 saying that a man can't look across
the street at his neighbor's Harley and drool over it, turning green with
envy? Or that a man can't gape at his neighbor's buxom wife, undressing
her with his eyes, and having erotic fantasies about her? No, the kind of lust
we're talking about here doesn't imply that at all. It implies a man going
after the neighbor's Harley, and the buxom wife instead of getting his own.

Coming at this from the opposite direction: in the movie The Bridges Of
Madison County, there's a precise moment when a married Francesca
Johnson makes a definite decision to initiate an affair with free-lance
photographer Robert Kincaid. Francesca was okay with Robert up till the
moment of her decision; but from that moment on, Mrs. Johnson was an
adulteress before she and Robert even slept together because it was in her
heart to make it happen.

Supposing a Catholic man sincerely believes it really and truly is adultery to
entertain thoughts about women-- any woman, whether somebody's wife or
single? Well; too bad because if that's the way he feels, then whenever he
does, he's an adulterer.

†. Rom 14:14 . . To him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is
unclean.

†. Rom 14:23 . . If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.

That is indeed tragic because there are perfectly decent Catholic men out
and about stacking up mortal sins against themselves and at risk of eternal
suffering for nothing more than thinking about women.

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Re: Erotic Fantasies

Post #28

Post by marco »

WebersHome wrote: [font=Georgia]-


Before we can even begin to apply what Christ said about adultery; we first
have to categorize the "woman" about whom he spoke. Well; she's obviously
somebody's wife


This is incorrect. She can commit adultery with a married man, whatever her status.


You seem to be preoccupied with the absolute minutiae of what constitutes Catholicism as opposed to the carte blanche you've discovered in your "protestant" faith. I suggest you've learned the rudiments of Catholicism imperfectly. There are flaws in all religions, especially those that sprung up at the Reformation and later. They had good intentions - which we all know is what the road to hell is paved with.

If you are happy in your present faith, then rejoice. Forget the inadequacies of your previous religion. Catholics do get to heaven and I suppose people of your faith manage it too. Basically it all depends on how nice a person you are. Catholicism made me think. When you next read Deuteronomy or Leviticus ask yourself if you REALLY agree with all that's there.

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Re: Erotic Fantasies

Post #29

Post by WebersHome »

marco wrote:[font=Georgia]She can commit adultery with a married man, whatever her status.[/font]
WebersHome wrote:[font=Georgia]Supposing a Catholic man sincerely believes it really and truly is adultery to
entertain thoughts about women-- any woman, whether somebody's wife or
single? Well; too bad because if that's the way he feels, then whenever he
does, he's an adulterer.

†. Rom 14:14 . . To him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is
unclean.

†. Rom 14:23 . . If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.

That is indeed tragic because there are perfectly decent Catholic men out
and about stacking up mortal sins against themselves and at risk of eternal
suffering for nothing more than thinking about women.
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Re: Erotic Fantasies

Post #30

Post by marco »

WebersHome wrote:

That is indeed tragic because there are perfectly decent Catholic men out
and about stacking up mortal sins against themselves and at risk of eternal
suffering for nothing more than thinking about women.
Yep, that's what comes of following Scripture too assiduously. The one good thing is that whatever faults the NT has, they are insignificant compared to the atrocities in the old.
Your concern for these young Catholic men who are on the verge of hell does you credit but I think their existence is pretty theoretical. I would worry more about killing witches and murdering infants, which is the prescription in the text you prefer.

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