Rome vs Melchizedek

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Rome vs Melchizedek

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Melchizedek was a high priest of the Most High God contemporary with Abraham. (Gen 14:18-20, Heb 5:10)

Mel, along with Abraham, existed prior to the covenanted law that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

â—� Deut 5:2-4 . .Yhvh our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. Yhvh did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.

This is very important seeing as how the covenant's law wasn't set up to be enforced ex post facto; i.e. it isn't retroactive.

â—� Gal 3:17. . The law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to cancel the promise.

Enacting the Jews' covenant after their father's time, instead of before him or with him, was done to protect Abraham's covenant from his posterity's curse-worthy failures to comply with their covenant. In other words; no matter how many times, nor in how many ways, Abraham's posterity breaks the laws of their own covenant, they cannot endanger the fulfillment of their father's covenant; which is a really good thing because otherwise neither Christ nor his believing followers would benefit from one of the promises God made in Abraham's covenant.

� Gal 3:8 . . Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, “Through you shall all the nations be blessed.� (cf. Gen 12:3)

Continuing:

â—� Rom 4:15 . .The law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation.

In other words: where there is no law, there is no law to break. However; it's not saying that things like dishonesty weren't sins back in those days because they were.

â—� Rom 5:13a . . Up to the time of the law, sin was in the world,

Rom 4:15 is only saying that seeing as how God hadn't as yet enacted a law forbidding dishonesty in Abraham's day, then whenever Abraham lied; God didn't write him up for it.

â—� Rom 5:13b . . . Sin is not accounted when there is no law.

The koiné Greek word translated "accounted" is ellogeo (el-log-eh'-o) which essentially speaks of keeping records.

So; seeing as how Christ's priesthood is patterned after Melchizedek's rather than Aaron's (Ps 110:4, Heb 5:1-7:28), and seeing as how Mel officiated prior to the Jews' covenant; then just as Abraham wasn't written up for breaking the Jews' covenanted laws; then neither are Christ's constituents written up for breaking them; which includes the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17, Ex 31:28, Deut 4:13, Deut 10:4).

â—� 2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them

Now, according to the rules and regulations of the Catholic catechism; when people pass away with just one un-absolved mortal sin on the books, they go directly to hell with no stopover in a purgatory.
[/font] ([font=Georgia]CCC 1035[/font][font=Verdana])

There's a fatal flaw in that rule. Know what it is? Well; according to Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and 2Cor 5:19, God isn't keeping books on Christ's believing followers. In point of fact, none of their sins of any kind are on the books-- either mortal or venial.

You know what that means? It means that as far as God's criminal justice system is concerned, Christ's believing followers are fully acquitted and 100% innocent, i.e. as far as God's criminal justice system is concerned; Christ's believing followers never committed even one single sin in their entire lives! So when the archives are reviewed as per Rev 20:11-15, there will be nothing recorded in them with which to accuse Christ's believing followers.

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The Publican's Experience

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Post by WebersHome »

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â—� Luke 18:14 . . I tell you, this man went down to his house forgiven rather than the other

No; Jesus didn't say "forgiven" he said justified.

The koiné Greek word is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to regard as innocent.

In order for God to grant the tax man innocence, He couldn't merely forgive him; no, God had to exonerate him; and how does one do that when there is evidence enough to convict?

Well, according to the Bible, Christ was restored to life for our justification (Rom 4:25). In other words; though Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to obtain forgiveness for people's sins; his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to make it possible for people to obtain an acquittal, i.e. exoneration; which can be defined as an adjudication of innocence.

Acquittals are normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to cook the books so that it appears the tax collector never did anything bad. On the surface; this looks very illegal, but from God's perspective it's all on the up and up.

This is a serious issue under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The covenant's sacrifices obtained forgiveness for the people, but the sacrifices did not, and could not, obtain them exoneration. No, a record of their disobedience remained on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles. Out ahead, at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those books will be opened for review.

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Re: Rome vs Melchizedek

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Post by WebersHome »

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Q: Don't Catholics obtain justification when they go to confession?

A: The Roman church's reconciliatory process is somewhat limited in its scope. It's primarily designed for absolution; i.e. while it forgives a sinner's debt to God's law, it does nothing to delete the sinner's history.

In other words: sinners leave the confessional with their rap sheets and their indictments intact and unchanged. That's unfortunate because those records are subject to review at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they can, and will, be used to adjudge people as undesirable immigrants, so to speak; thus barring them from crossing the border into heaven

Justification, on the other hand, as per the koiné Greek word dikaioo, completely deletes the sinner's history; i.e. dikaioo wipes their records so clean and efficiently that there is nothing left that can in any way be used to prove that the sinner has ever been anything less than 100% innocent.

Now, the advantage of the kind of justification I'm talking about is that sinners need obtain it only once because from thence, God stops keeping records on them.

â—� 2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them

The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means to take an inventory.

â—� Rom 4:8 . . Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.

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Although the Catholic church waited for nearly 2000 years to produce a Bible into any other language other than / outside of - Latin / Italian Language. While yet they were simultaneously developing their church theologies, social norms, and doctrines and many other religious things - all done entirely - without a public Bible available for most of the world to read.

I believe that both Catholics and Protestants have changed and altered Gods word. Many people do are not made aware by the Trinitarian Translators that the Bible in the Greek manuscripts uses three totally different / separate Greek words when addressing the concept and subject - related to the idea of forgiveness / pardon of sins and even the meaning or concept of confessing and acknowledging our sins.

When Yahoshua said = " Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them " He was simply saying - " Whosesoever sins ye “ lay aside “ or loosed they are “ laid - aside “ - loosened / LET GO. This word ( LAY ASIDE - LET GO ) ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi - - has nothing to do with the word forgiveness. – that has a different meaning and is a different Greek word that applies to the forgiveness of God, by the blood of Christ.

1._ { G859 - ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } - Meaning = Complete Freedom; Pardon: - Deliverance, Forgiveness, Complete Liberty, Remission of sins.
It is used in this meaning = Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the - { pardon - forgiveness = φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

As we see here - Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no { pardon - forgiveness = φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } This Greek word “ φ ε σ ι ς “ - aphesis is always applied and always “ ONLY : always concerning the Lord God and His - Word - In the Manuscripts - His Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the BLOOD OF Yahoshua shed on the cross in a ( ONE TIME EVENT ) COMPLETED - is the only instance that mentions or applies this word FORGIVENESS, PARDON and remission of sins. -as the Greek word “ φ ε σ ι ς “ - aphesis- = forgiveness / pardon.

Never is this word used in any other way, fashion or under any circumstances whatsoever.. - not even one single time. it is always and only through Yahoshua and His Blood shed - and has no other application of any other elements or aspect, in the manuscripts.

And there is a different “ second “ word called = { G863 - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } - Meaning = To send forth, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be gone, put away. (send away) yield up. It is used in this meaning = Mar 1:31 And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever - left { ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } her, and she ministered unto them.
Mat 4:20 And they straightway - left { ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } their nets, and followed him.

And there is a different “ third “ word called = { G5483 - χ α � ι�ζ ο μ α ι - charizomai } To be giving toward someone or something, to give, grant as a favor, that is, gratuitously, in kindness. It is used in this meaning = Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God { - gave χ α � ι � ζ ο μ α ι - charizomai } it to Abraham by promise.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and { - gave χ α � ι� ζ ο μ α ι - charizomai } him a name which is above every name: - - - The reason is, because the forgiveness of sins, was already done and finished in a one time and completed event and DONE and FINISHED - upon the cross.

This Greek word { G863 - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } - when used in The New Testament, ONLY and ALWAYS means ( to lay aside, let go and leave ) it is a totally and completely different word and used in a different meaning and not the word {forgiveness / pardon { G859 - α ̓ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } that is always and ONLY used - only - in the same application or meaning as when the Blood of Yahoshua was shed on the cross and when we accept His salvation and word and are filled with the Holy Ghost. – Then we are pardoned and forgiven from all sin. - This Greek word { G859 ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } is only and always applied to “ FORGIVENESS, PARDON and remission “ of sins by the " BLOOD SHED AT CALVARY " and also to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. - There are no oral traditions, no priests, no human intervention or human involvement applied to a single verse in the entire Bible that even once - uses this Greek word - { G859 ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis }.. And we see how that these different words are used differently in the same conversation that Yahoshua had with the Jews.

Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are { pardoned / forgiven G859 ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } thee. - Luk 5:21 and Mar 2:7 the scribes and the Pharisees said " Who can { lay aside G863 - ἀ φ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } sins but God only? " - :10 and Yahoshua said " know that the Son of man hath power on earth to - { lay aside G863 - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } sins.
Here the authors were using two different Greek words with two different meanings and ways that they are used in the manuscripts. NEVER is man said to be forgiving or pardoning sins. And the manuscripts never say or ascribe this Greek word to “ man “ forgiving or pardoning sins.

There is not a single man-made or instance of human intervention nor application that exists or a single verse that the manuscripts use or render from the Bible that uses this Greek word -- { G863 - ἀφ ι �η μ ι - aphiēmi } - Never does this word { forgiveness / pardon /ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } have anything to do with man. it is God alone that forgives / pardons sins. As we see how this word FORGIVENESS, PARDON and Remission - are always consistently used in the Manuscripts in the same way.

The word - G859 - ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis - af'-es-is- Meaning = Freedom; pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission. As in - Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the { forgiveness /ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of sins. - And - Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the - { forgiveness /ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of sins. - And - Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the { forgiveness / pardon / ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of sins;- And - Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the { forgiveness/ pardon /ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of sins: -And - Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no { forgiveness/ pardon /ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of sins. - And - Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the { forgivness / pardon /ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of sins... and many more verses - but none of them use this word when speaking of man laying aside the sins and mistakes of another man. God alone forgives and pardons. - And - Heb 10:18 Now where { forgiveness/ pardon /ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

There is no mention of this Greek word - applying the forgiveness, the pardon and the remission of sins - outside of these verses centered around Gods shed blood and the work of God through baptism and receiving His salvation by faith in His word . This verse never applies or APPEARS in the Bible - under any other circumstances. These other two words that Trinitarians are claiming are the word “ forgiveness and pardon “ - G863 - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi - af-ee'-ay-mee. - Meaning = To send; an intensive form of (to go)); to send forth, - cry out, leave, forsake, lay aside, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, yield up. It means that = God Lets the sin go, or - He sets or lays the sin aside / allows one to leave of their sin / God lets it go - BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE APPLICATION OF being pardoned: - delivered or the forgiveness, liberty and pardon and remission of sins that was already given by the blood of Yahoshua – upon the cross and when we accept Him as our savior.

As the Bible clarifies in Heb 10:18 = Now where { forgiveness / pardon - remission - ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of this is, there is no more offering for sin. The priest and other human intervention have no power regarding the Blood being applied to our lives and the word is never applied in the manuscripts - for pardon / forgiveness of sins being in the hands of priests and man.......

We see where this other different word is used and how it is used in all of the Bible verses. Meaning = G863 - ἀφ ι �η μ ι - aphiēmi - af-ee'-ay-mee = Where our sins have already been forgiven and pardoned at the cross and by Baptism and accepting the gospel- but after this - This Greek word aphesis by the Blood of Christ is never any longer applied or used in any other form.

. - After this - this word becomes ONLY “ aphiēmi “ - meaning to – Let, to - Leave, forsake, lay aside, let (alone, be, go, have go ), to omit, put asie ( or to send) away, yield up. To allow, our sins that have already been forgiven and pardoned at the cross – when the blood was shed.
As in these different verses - Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering, said to him: { Leave - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.

And - Mat 4:11 Then the devil { Left- ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } him; and behold angels came and ministered to him. - Mat 4:20 And they immediately { Left / Lay aside - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } their nets, followed him. - Mat 4:22 And they forthwith { Left / Lay aside - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } their nets and father, and followed him. - Mat 5:24 { Leave - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } there thy offering before the altar. - Mat 5:40 And if a man will contend with thee in judgment, and take away thy coat, { Left / Lay aside - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } thy cloak also unto him. - Mat 6:12 And { Left / leave, lay aside - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. - Mat 6:14 For if you will { leave, lay aside - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiē mi } men their offenses. -
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath { left, laid aside - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } .. “ everything “ . .... for my name's sake.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees..... omitting the weightier matters of the law....while { leaving, laying aside - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiē mi } the other as undone.

In other words, The specific, exact, individual Greek word that means “ To Lay, Aside, Or LEAVE sin “ The Trinitarian Translators pretend or contend that this Greek word is the same universal English word meaning Forgiveness “ COMPLETE PARDON / FORGIVENESS “ -- throughout the translation while they picked and chose where it meant forgiveness and where it meant to mean Lay Aside, Leave or Departed or LEAVE in the application - depending randomly upon whether or not it is about sin or just some other topic not about sin. For example, the Catholic Translation uses the word FORGIVE here in 1Jn 1:9

But what 1st Jn 1:9 says in the Original Greek Manuscripts is “ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to { leave, lay aside - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

FORGIVENESS, PARDONING SINS has nothing to do with the ACTION word OF " { leaving, letting go, Letting out, going and Laying aside or stopping, halting, { leaving, - ἀφ ι�η μ ι - aphiēmi } our sins. This pardon and forgiveness were already done 2000 years ago = on the cross. And the Bible never once - ( NEVER ) uses this other word “ἀφ ι�η μ ι “ to apply to Catholic priests nor to any man " whatsoever " and there are no Catholic Priests in the Bible.

I believe that the Bible shows that - The Pardon and Forgiveness have already been done on the cross. This word forgiveness exclusively / wholly applies to God alone - through the shedding of His blood, baptism and accepting his salvation process alone. As the Bible clarifies in Heb 10:18 = Now where { forgiveness / pardon - remission - ἀ �φ ε σ ι ς - aphesis } of this is, - there is no more offering for sin. The way that the Greek words are used and their meanings and applications ( how they are used ) clarifying that the Priest or Bishop has no more offering for sins. This word never applies to them. - not even once.[/font]

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Re: Rome vs Melchizedek

Post #5

Post by De Maria »

WebersHome wrote: [font=Verdana]-
Melchizedek was a high priest of the Most High God contemporary with Abraham. (Gen 14:18-20, Heb 5:10)....

Now, according to the rules and regulations of the Catholic catechism; when people pass away with just one un-absolved mortal sin on the books, they go directly to hell with no stopover in a purgatory.
[/font] ([font=Georgia]CCC 1035[/font][font=Verdana])

There's a fatal flaw in that rule. Know what it is? Well; according to Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and 2Cor 5:19, God isn't keeping books on Christ's believing followers. In point of fact, none of their sins of any kind are on the books-- either mortal or venial.

You know what that means? It means that as far as God's criminal justice system is concerned, Christ's believing followers are fully acquitted and 100% innocent, i.e. as far as God's criminal justice system is concerned; Christ's believing followers never committed even one single sin in their entire lives! So when the archives are reviewed as per Rev 20:11-15, there will be nothing recorded in them with which to accuse Christ's believing followers.
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The problem is, that you've misunderstood the Scripture. Now, St. Paul is the one who wrote those verses. If he understood those words the way that you do, why would he also say:

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 King James Version (KJV)

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice that he is talking to what you would describe as "saved believers". Yet, he says that they will not enter the Kingdom of God if they continue in any of these sins.

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Post #6

Post by De Maria »

Falling Light 101 wrote: [font=Arial]
Although the Catholic church waited for nearly 2000 years to produce a Bible into any other language other than / outside of - Latin / Italian Language. While yet they were simultaneously developing their church theologies, social norms, and doctrines and many other religious things - all done entirely - without a public Bible available for most of the world to read.

I believe that both Catholics and Protestants have changed and altered Gods word. Many people do are not made aware by the Trinitarian Translators that the Bible in the Greek manuscripts uses three totally different / separate Greek words when addressing the concept and subject - related to the idea of forgiveness / pardon of sins and even the meaning or concept of confessing and acknowledging our sins.ness of sins being in the hands of priests and man.......
The problem is your assumption that the Bible is the source of God's Word.
But that is false. Jesus Christ is the source and He established a Church and commanded that Church to Teach His Word.

It is the Catholic Church to which you must go in order to understand what God has revealed to the world for our salvation.

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