melikio wrote:1John does what many fundamentalist Christians do, they present information from the Bible, as if it is THE RULE for every person they relate it to. And they typically overstep their authority and autonomy, by trying to alter or manipulate the live of other individuals.
Well, the Bible is true that gay sex is a sin, but so is adultery, fornication, etc., etc. The premise isn't to dehumanize but to save from sin. All people are sinners to some degree.
There ARE limits (really) to what 1John, you or anyone else can/should do to CHANGE people (even to "save" them from
HELL). That needs to be taught and understood by all Christians.
Forcing the reilgion (beliefs), is most often worse than people not having considered it at all.
melikio wrote:Even IF homosexual people weren't more "activist" about their rights (as they are today), they would STILL be hounded by homophobics and religious fundamentalist, justifying evil behavior toward them in the name of God and the Bible.
Seems like the pot calling the kettle black. Many gays try to dehumanize fundamentalists and try to justify their own sinful behavior.
The pot and the kettle ARE indeed similar "colors"; and as you imply above, WE are ALL HUMAN ("Christian" or otherwise). None of
us were meant to PLAY God's role, or actually accomplish what only He can do. Changing/altering people is ultimately His providence.
melikio wrote:God may not condone homosexual behavior (as some interpret it), but I'm virtually certain that He doesn't condone much of the CRAP I see Christians (in God's name) dumping upon the homosexual people of this world.
From the very beginning of Biblical times, God called on people to repent and turn back to him. Many of God's own prophets were called names and dehumanized for giving out God's word.
It is different today, and different where we are; you have to know that and accept that. I'm not going to argue the spiritual aspects with you, because we "agree" (most likely). But the things MANY "Christians" are doing to affect homosexual peopl ein this day/age, are not
justifiied (neither biblically, nor socially).
IMO, it's time to quit coming out of the closet and start cleaning it out.
Clean YOURS out, set and EXAMPLE and lets see if people are drawn to your example. The CRAP in YOUR closet, shouldn't be shoveled onto those who are dealing with what's in their own closets. Am I referring to widespread "Christian" hypocrisy? (Yes, I am.)
And it's time to quit handing out condoms and start giving out the Word of God. And that goes for gays, straights, and anyone else.
If I put a Bible in someone's hand, what would they going to DO with it?
(I've done that many times.)
If I put a condom in condom in someone's hand, what would they do with it?
(I have promoted that people care enough to PREVENT "conception" or the spreading of disease.)
I cannot TALK/PERSUADE them into being HOLY or being "Christian" (it's not MY place or within MY power as a human being. (Some things belong to God to do.) You may believe differently; yet it doesn't give you the right to place controls upon the lives of others.
God is no respector of any individual but asks that all repent and turn to him for salvation.
The problem is that TOO MANY ignorant and arrogant "Christians", try to PUSH people toward the same. They really need to stop doing that; it doesn't work and I don't believe it is what God has called anyone to do.
Personally, I grieve for my country when I see the unbiblical attitude and behaviors of those who are trying to turn America the Great into a cesspool of unrighteousness, and call that love.
Have you taken a wide look at what so-called "Christianity" (the label) has done to people the world over? It's not that the "Bible" is a problem, but that many who USE the Bible DO ABUSE others with the ideas they formulate from it. Just look for more "Christians" to be like "Jesus", and in that I believe you WILL see the real problem with the EFFECT that much of Christianity has had in the last 1000 years.
(What "Christians" actually remind you of Jesus, when you look closely at what they've said and done?)
Love does not rejoice in iniquity.
It also
does not compel its own way. (What is it we see in far too many (especially fundamentalist) believers? They want freakin' POWER, so they can
FORCE what they believe is THE moral standard for all. It's hypocritical period.
It does a neighbor no harm like encouraging or trying to justify sin.
Be ready to say that, the next time you see:
Divorce, adultery, greed, envy, strife, lust...and the rest. You see, it is one thing to encourage people to do what is "right", it is another to DEMAND something of someone, as if one has the power of God to employ at will. No "Christian" can grab onto God's "will", and whip it around as if they OWN it (they don't own it).
And I say to the gay pride movement, the federal courts, the liberal press, and the ACLU, "You have gone this far, you have gone too far, and you are not going any further.
What is wrong with people expressing their desire to have freedom; to be free of the "religion" many wish to PRESS upon them against their will? Again, I hope you and other Christians can look at DIVORCE and some of the stuff that is obviously "sinful" about the "heterosexual lifestyle", and be so adamantly "holy" about it. As it is, there is relative silence about the LIST of faults having nothing to do with being homosexual. Actually, it wouldn't be so hard to think that "homosexuality" was the ONLY sin Christians really feel strongly about.
You will not run the Lord our God, nor His word, nor His commandments, nor His people, from the churches, the colleges, the halls of government, the public schools, or the courtrooms of America Ever again!"
Whose GOAL was it to take people to court over something that should basically be understood via The Golden Rule? Homosexuals aren't going to disappear, cease to exist or crawl into holes. They may or may not be sinful hedonists (as many heterosexuals surely are), and they may even be worthy of God's grace' even enough of it so that God might love them (as many "Christians" will not).
And to those who do not answer to God we say, "There is still truth and justice and freedom in this land, and there are still those who are willing to take a stand for what's right in the eyes of God." And that's what we will continue to do.
Do YOU know my heart or anyone else's?
YOU don't know what others have struggled with, for how long or why they see the things they do now (often despite studying all the biblical, and despite the "Christian" lingo you and others throw around like it's
bug-repellent).
Justice, truth and freedom from a PERFECT being need not be questioned. However, I've seen what some (labelled "Christian") have done to others in the name of "perfection" (God), and I know it is important to:
1. Scrutinize/Test what they say is "true".
2. Protect oneself from the things they'll often do, to show/prove that they are as "right" as they "say" they are.
I've seen people interpret and ACT upon what they've learned in the Bible. My conclusion is that God would be the only one I could trust implicitly. Some thing I know, others I'm still learning. I sought for over 37 years to FIX being a homosexual. I prayed, I endured anti-gay HYPE, I cried because people who THOUGHT they loved me, actually hated me (they didn't know how to handle homosexuality, not one iota).
We DO NOT need a world where people negatively HYPE every fault they see in other human beings. That is near the root-cause of so many evils, I cannot begin to express it in this thread. If someone were to see me, they would not see "gay", and I would hope they'd see something that resembled "Jesus" (just a little). I don't even see myself a homosexual, but I'm more than frequently-reminded of why I have to avoid religous-bigots, who fear more than they "love" other people.
9-11 showed the WORLD what I'm referring to above. And if love isn't the MODE and MOTIVE behind anyone's religious actions, then it is better to be critical than fall victim to the insidious plague of being "religious" for the mere sake of believing what yu've been told is "true".
-Mel-