Sodom, Greece, Rome and homosexuality.

[AlAyeti]

Does allowing for diversity include parents having no voice in what their children are forced to be taught and have to accept?

Do Christians and the many other cultures and belief systems opposed to homosexuality have the right to have their culture and religious views respected in society when it comes to decent and natural sexual behavior in the education system and in public?

Are homosexuals demanding accesss to children under the label of diversity and anti-hate legislation?

This seems the number one issue between average and normal "family" people and the homosexual agenda.

Can there be laws passed that keeps homosexuality from becoming forced on children and families that oppose it, without the homosexual community and homosexual action organizations crying discrimination?

Is there such a thing anymore as heterosexual rights?

[melikio]

http://anitra.net/activism/glbt/sodom-essay.html

Another view to consider.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Well while you are arguing about this perhaps the Jewish view of what the sin of Sodom is should be mentioned?

"Jewish view?" Where is the word "Jewish" in Hebrew historic-Tanakh lexcion? Judeans perhaps? Israelites? Just asking asking, as I "test all things."

Yes, let's here from a prophet (or two) of "Israel," as we weigh a Jewish opinion or two. But your offering looks more like a speach of the World Workers Party. Communism would be great if Jesus ran it?

The Tanakh


Isaiah
Chapter 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 THE VISION of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for HaShem hath spoken: Children I have reared, and brought up, and they have rebelled against Me.

3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know, My people doth not consider.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evil-doers, children that deal corruptly; they have forsaken HaShem, they have contemned the Holy One of Israel, they are turned away backward.

5 On what part will ye yet be stricken, seeing ye stray away more and more? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and festering sores: they have not been pressed, neither bound up, neither mollified with oil.

7 Your country is desolate; your cities are burned with fire; your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by floods.

8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9 Except HaShem of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of HaShem, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our G-d, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith HaShem; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.

12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations-- I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly.

14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith HaShem; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land;

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of HaShem hath spoken.

21 How is the faithful city become a harlot! She that was full of justice, righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water.

23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves; every one loveth bribes, and followeth after rewards; they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

24 Therefore saith the L-rd, HaShem of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel: Ah, I will ease Me of Mine adversaries, and avenge Me of Mine enemies;

25 And I will turn My hand upon thee, and purge away thy dross as with lye, and will take away all thine alloy;

26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning; afterward thou shalt be called The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

27 Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and they that return of her with righteousness.

28 But the destruction of the transgressors and the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake HaShem shall be consumed.

29 For they shall be ashamed of the terebinths which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.

30 For ye shall be as a terebinth whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.

31 And the strong shall be as tow, and his work as a spark; and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

And in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel
Chapter 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 And He said unto me: 'Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak with thee.'

2 And spirit entered into me when He spoke unto me, and set me upon my feet; and I heard Him that spoke unto me.

3 And He said unto me: 'Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to rebellious nations, that have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me, even unto this very day;

4 and the children are brazen-faced and stiff-hearted, I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them: Thus saith the L-rd GOD.

5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear--for they are a rebellious house--yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though defiers and despisers be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions; be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, for they are a rebellious house.

7 And thou shalt speak My words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear; for they are most rebellious.

8 And thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee: be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house; open thy mouth, and eat that which I give thee.'

9 And when I looked, behold, a hand was put forth unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;

10 and He spread it before me, and it was written within and without; and there was written therein lamentations, and moaning, and woe.

Judaism’s Encounter with Greed

The notion that humans are merely stewards of wealth, not its owner, can play into the hands of the greedy.
By Dr. Meir Tamari

Excerpted from The Challenge of Wealth: A Jewish Perspective on Earning and Spending Money. Reprinted with permission of the publisher. Copyright 1995 by Jason Aronson, Inc.


The effects of greed and the fear of uncertainty, which lead to economic crime and theft, may be limited by the understanding of God’s role as the real provider of all the needs of His creatures. This, however, is not sufficient to create a moral economic system. All too often, faith in God’s bounty as satisfying all the needs of men leads to an evasion of social responsibilities. This piety can easily degenerate into the moral corruption of telling the poor, the weak, and even one’s competitors in the marketplace to trust in God’s bounty, using it as an excuse for not sharing what we receive from Him.

It is because of this ease with which people are able to find reasonable and rational reasons for not giving charity that the Tur [Ya‘akov ben Asher, 15th century codifier of Jewish law known by the title of his work, Arba‘ah Turim], in his opening statement to the laws of tzedakah uses a repetitive form, writing that “one is obligated to be very, very careful in giving charity.”

By these laws, the belief in Divine bounty as a source of all wealth creates in Judaism a concept of stewardship, whereby part of that wealth is given to assist others. The religious concept of bitachon (trust in God) may be applied only to ourselves and may not be projected as the means to solve the economic problems of others. One of the chassidic masters said that he was taught this lesson when he found a ten ruble note. “I put it under a stone and wrote on the stone, ‘Thou shalt not steal!’ When I returned, I found a five ruble note in its place and written on the stone was the verse, ‘Thy brother shall live with thee.’ ”

The Mishnah (Avot 5:12) classifies one whose attitude to wealth is “What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours” as being a mediocre person. Such a person is prepared to respect the property of another and operate within the framework of the law. However, he is not prepared to assist others, nor does he recognize a social obligation in view of the wealth in his possession.

“Some say,” continues the Mishnah, “this is the mark of the people of Sodom.” The people of Sodom have been the archetype of an evil community deserving of destruction ever since biblical times, primarily because of their selfish economic behavior. The Malbim (Rabbi Meir Lebush, Hungary, nineteenth century) comments that their sin lay in their refusal to share their wealth with the surrounding nations. It should be noted that while the Aggadah [classical rabbinic legends] is replete with stories of their inhospitality to strangers, the men of Sodom welcomed Lot, Abraham’s nephew. Lot was a wealthy man, and it was only poor strangers who were not welcome in Sodom. The Sodomite view of absolute private property rejects any obligations to assist others, which is contrary to the Jewish concept of limited private-property rights.


Hearing that in the World to Come evildoers would be punished by not being able to bend their arms, a chasid queried Divine Justice, saying that this was no punishment. “Well, they will not be able to eat,” answered his master. But the chasid countered, “Let them sit opposite each other and then they can feed one another with their outstretched arms.” That, however they refused to do. That is their evil way even as it was in Sodom.


However, what made it necessary to destroy Sodom was not the individual selfishness of its citizens, but the fact that this had become an integral part of its communal culture. While a society can exist with cruel and selfish individuals, the moral decay that sets in when cruelty and callousness become hallmarks of that society marks it for Divine retribution. Rashi, commenting on a verse in Amos--“They who sell the poor for a pair of shoes”--highlights this communal aspect. He notes the difference between a sandal, which is open, and a shoe, which is closed and possesses in Hebrew the same grammatical root as the word for “lock.” This is what the rich did. They closed in the poor farmer’s field and then forced him to sell—a perfectly legal but immoral use of societal legislation. So Judea had to be destroyed. In Sodom they gave charity generously. However, all the money was secretly marked so that the storekeepers refused to accept it. When the poor died of hunger, each Sodomite reclaimed his money—legal but abhorrent. Cruelty and callousness are expressed not only in relationships with the poor and weak but also in those between buyer and seller, employer and employee, and even competitors in all spheres of business activity.


When a chasid came to his Admor [the rabbi of whom he was a follower] to complain that his competitors were encroaching on his livelihood, the master told him the following story: “A horse, pausing to drink of the waters of a lake, was astounded to see the head of another horse, bending to drink of his water. In anger, he lashed out with his hooves to chase the other horse away. When, indeed the waves drove away the intruder, the horse put his head down into the water once again to drink, only to find that the other horse had returned. Once again he lashed out with his hooves. You, my friend, are a man, not a horse. The God who provides for you, provides also for the needs of your fellowmen.”

If people really believed that all their needs would be satisfied as a result of God’s mercy and providence, then they would not hesitate to share their wealth with others. Indeed, the refusal to share wealth with others is a denial of trust in God, a rejection of God’s merit as the provider of the needs of man, and an assumption that that wealth is the result solely of one’s work, ability, or luck. The selfishness of the people of Sodom and their imitators in all societies is actually a form of idolatry, since it negates the Divine Source of all wealth.

Dr. Meir Tamari, a native of South Africa, is director of the Centre for Business Ethics at the Jerusalem College of Technology and the author of With All Your Possessions: Jewish Ethics and Economic Life.

This thread is about homosexuals demanding to lead all morality on sexual decency and behavior. From tiny tots to the courts, and all stops in between.

Preaching Marxism/communim is for another thread.

Here's God (Ha Shem), talking with Abraham, who had already had a run in with King Bera of Sodom earlier in his life. A story that has Abram not liking the Sodomite much at all.

( As a side note in the following story from the Jewish Tanakh,, it's interesting that people think God didn't walk around and talk to some of His people.)

Bereshit - Genesis
Chapter 18

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 And HaShem appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed down to the earth,

3 and said: 'My lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant.

4 Let now a little water be fetched, and wash your feet, and recline yourselves under the tree.

5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and stay ye your heart; after that ye shall pass on; forasmuch as ye are come to your servant.' And they said: 'So do, as thou hast said.'

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said: 'Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes.'

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto the servant; and he hastened to dress it.

8 And he took curd, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

9 And they said unto him: 'Where is Sarah thy wife?' And he said: 'Behold, in the tent.'

10 And He said: 'I will certainly return unto thee when the season cometh round; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son.' And Sarah heard in the tent door, which was behind him.--

11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, and well stricken in age; it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.--

12 And Sarah laughed within herself, saying: 'After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?'

13 And HaShem said unto Abraham: 'Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying: Shall I of a surety bear a child, who am old?

14 Is any thing too hard for HaShem. At the set time I will return unto thee, when the season cometh round, and Sarah shall have a son.'

15 Then Sarah denied, saying: 'I laughed not'; for she was afraid. And He said: 'Nay; but thou didst laugh.'

16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked out toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

17 And HaShem said: 'Shall I hide from Abraham that which I am doing;

18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of HaShem, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that HaShem may bring upon Abraham that which He hath spoken of him.'

20 And HaShem said: 'Verily, the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and, verily, their sin is exceeding grievous.

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto Me; and if not, I will know.'

22 And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before HaShem.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said: 'Wilt Thou indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt Thou indeed sweep away and not forgive the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from Thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from Thee; shall not the judge of all the earth do justly?'

26 And HaShem said: 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will forgive all the place for their sake.'

27 And Abraham answered and said: 'Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the L-rd, who am but dust and ashes.

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous; wilt Thou destroy all the city for lack of five?' And He said: 'I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five.'

29 And he spoke unto Him yet again, and said: 'Peradventure there shall be forty found there.' And He said: 'I will not do it for the forty's sake.'

30 And he said: 'Oh, let not the L-rd be angry, and I will speak. Peradventure there shall thirty be found there.' And He said: 'I will not do it, if I find thirty there.'

31 And he said: 'Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the L-rd. Peradventure there shall be twenty found there.' And He said: 'I will not destroy it for the twenty's sake.'

32 And he said: 'Oh, let not the L-rd be angry, and I will speak yet but this once. Peradventure ten shall be found there.' And He said: 'I will not destroy it for the ten's sake.'

33 And HaShem went His way, as soon as He had left off speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned unto his place.

[Grumpy]

Did someone mention me?

You see I find this thread much more palatable since I found the ignore function.

Oh well, here's another thought for your consideration.

The story of Sodom in the Bible is not the story of Mobs of homosexuals seeking to "know" the men in Lot's house, it is the story of xenophobic, insular villagers seeking to know who these strange men were who Lot(a resident alien) had allowed into their village. Picture an old west town where the residents say,"We don't cotten to no strangers 'round here!" Isrealites, in war, were known to sneak into towns(even disguised as women) and open the gates to their fellow warriors at night. And that fellow Abraham wanted them to slaughter everyone and everything(except the virgin girls, those they kept as concubines(sex slaves) along with their multiple wives, kinky, kinky.)

The very idea of "gangs" of homosexuals banging on doors looking for men to rape is just not credible!!! Yet this loony idea is what the Christian homophobes base their justification on!!! Of course you are of the devil if you ever question this farce!!!

To Know in the Biblical Sense, "Yadha", What Exactly Does It Mean?

The word translated as 'know' (yadha') is used by itself in ten places in the Old Testament to denote heterosexual coition. In five additional texts it is used in conjunction with mishkabh (in this context, "to lie") to mean the same thing. But yadha' appears by itself no less than 943 times in a non sexual connotation, according to F. Brown, et al., in "A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (Oxford, 1952)."

There is no Old Testament text in which yadha' is said to refer to homosexual coitus, with the single exception of this disputed Sodom and Gomorra story in Genesis. The less ambiguous word shakhabh, however, is used for both homosexual and bestial intercourse, in addition to coition between man and woman. Shakhabh appears fifty times in the Old Testament; if it had been used instead of yadha' in the Sodom story, the meaning of the text would have been unmistakable. As it is, we have no grounds to assume that the wrath of the Almighty was turned against these cities because homosexual practices occurred there.

With all that in mind, a far more consistent theory has been developed by Bible scholars. Since yadha' commonly means "to get acquainted with," the demand to "know" the visitors may well have implied some serious breach of the rules of hospitality. Several considerations provide support for this view.

In the first place, Lot was not a native of Sodom, but had the status of a resident alien, or stranger. As such, he may not have had the right to admit unidentified foreigners to the city. City gates were closed at night expressly to prevent lawless or subversive aliens from entering on unknown errands, and travelers carried credentials because they might at any time be asked to prove that they were abroad on legitimate business. Thus we might translate "Bring them out to us, that we may know them" as "We wish to know whom you are bringing as guests into our city." Lot's refusal to turn his visitors over to this horde of vigilantes is totally in keeping with the contemporary laws of etiquette, because in those days no civic police force protected strangers in a city. Any kind of robbery or physical abuse could have been meted out to the two angels if he had agreed to surrender them, but in his home they were safe. He was obliged to protect them as honored guests. It is certain that the Sodomites were demanding he violate the code of hospitality, but not at all clear from the text that they were inclined to indulge in homosexual acts.

Among the 23 other Biblical references to Sodom, none of which mention homosexuality, are the following.

This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:48-49

Wisdom 19:13 tells us that the sin of Sodom was a "bitter hatred of strangers" and "making slaves of guests who were benefactors".

But the most convincing evidence is the fact that "yadha" never means "same-gender sexual activity" in any of its mearly 1000 appearances in the Bible.

More on the way, hang on!!!

Grumpy

[Cathar1950]

Grumpster,

You not surprisingly left out the stuff the female codom up the rectum to have "natural" sexual relations in the rectum.

I wonder why you did that? No I don't.

That looks like a 100% attack as opposed to those 25% attacks.
I see you got to use rectum and condom. You must be all giggly.

100% personal attack directed 100% against another debater. Proof as well of the utter intolerance of of the people that disapprove of anal and oral sex being paraded down main street.

I am trying to understand what you are saying here. I don’t think any one minds if you disapprove they just don’t want you to illegally act out your intolerance. There is a distinction. They were not parading down Main Street doing anal and oral sex. You were thinking about anal and oral sex while they paraded down the street. See the difference?

Why can't these homosexuals "keep it to themselves," like they demand of those that disapprove of their personal choice behaviors be showcased in public.

Why can’t you do that? You see then there would be no problem. Go ahead make the world a better place. Keep to yourself.

[1John2_26]

http://anitra.net/activism/glbt/sodom-essay.html

Another view to consider.

Other than the Gay Pride Parade handing out how to pamphlets on stuffing female condoms up rectums? And, the condoms and lube? How safe is it the preparation? Has anyone thought to ask? H$#@ no. Who wants to get screamed at.

So, let's consider Anitra's position:

Homosexuals and the Christian Church
So what was the sin of Sodom? Homosexuality, as implied by our use of "sodomy" as a synonym for anal intercourse or any other sexual relations between two men?

God historical start.

Or was the sin of Sodom being self-centered, cruel and inhospitable, and not specifically related to sexual practices at all?

Raping Angels may fall into "sexual practices" Anitra. Just a thought here "hun." Also, rape is usually considered an "inhospitable" sexual act.

The story in Genesis describes all the men and boys in Sodom gathering together to attack and humiliate the strangers among them. Heterosexual rape has been used throughout history as an attack, a humiliation of enemies in war or "uppity women" in peace. Homosexual rape has also been practiced by men who are heterosexual by preference, as a way to shame the one attacked.

Homosexual sex shameful? Seems historically based.

This shaming works even in cultures that do not regard consenting heterosexual or homosexual relations as shameful; rape is a violation and a humiliation, no matter who practices it on whom.

But "men and boys" are male. Male to male sex is termed "homosexual" in modern science.

Jeremiah also condemns the Sodomites for adultery. Whatever the modern view of adultery, which may depend on what the definition of "is" is,

Welcome to the morality given to our world by Bill Clinton. Convicted perjury and ex-President. Perjury is labeled "false witness" in the Bible.

. . . in the traditional Jewish culture adultery was sexual intercourse, by a person who was married, with a person of the opposite sex to whom they were not married, in betrayal of vows to one's spouse, one's community, and one's God -- breaking the web that bound the society together.

So Anitra, you're saying the Bible views marriage as man-womans and that that binds society together? How conservative and also considered homophobic hate speech.

Adultery is often a sin of greed and self-centeredness, compatible with the character of the Sodomites as drawn in the Old Testament -- but it does not necessarily indicate homosexuality.

Greed and self-centeredness? Like wanting to redefine and alter marriage in ways it cannot be? Covet may also be a Biblical word to consider.

Or is self-centeredness, rape, cruelty, adultery, promiscuity an inevitable counterpart to homosexuality?

AIDS may have a word or two on promiscuity and Gay Culture being ubiquitous and obviosly connected.

As recently as ten years ago, I believed that. I believed that Christianity called me to love homosexuals as people, but to reject their sins, which included homosexuality. I also believed that homosexuals had psychological and character flaws, and were more inclined to promiscuity and cruelty than heterosexuals.

When I became homeless, I began living and working with a number of homosexuals. It seems to me that a third of homeless youth are homeless -- usually cast out of home when they "came out."

Reality is heartless on stereotypes.

Reality is also heartless on emotionalism that drives opinions.

I do believe that temperance and chastity are among the fruits of the spirit. I experienced, myself, giving up promiscuity and adultery after my own Christian rebirth. However, I know gays, lesbians, transvestites and bisexuals who are not promiscuous or adulterous.

Have you ever read the "want ads" in Gay publications? Also, "Bi-Sexual" is a declaration of "any port in a storm" sexual behavior that is pure promiscuity. Adultery is a man (husband) or woman (wife) cheating on his or her wife(woman) or husband (man).

Many are of other faiths than Christian; some are passionately Christian. This is my own anecdotal evidence, but it is borne out by all statistical evidence I have ever read.

Statisical evidence borne out of vague expression?

When I became homeless, I began living and working with a number of homosexuals. It seems to me that a third of homeless youth are homeless -- usually cast out of home when they "came out."

What about the numbers of youth that didn't respect - uh hum - "honor" their parents? That would be honor their "mother and father?" Pops and mom have to endure a child's promiscuity and rebellion for how long and to what extent? How many people bear their own guilt? Probably the 2/3's of the homeless youth (the majority according to the numbers) that chose to leave?

Most child molestation is committed by heterosexuals. Most rapes are committed by heterosexuals. Most crimes of any other kind are committed by heterosexuals. There is no evidence whatsoever that homosexuals are any less moral, as a class, than heterosexuals.

Debateble urban legends hardly are impressive "statistics" but a fact bares mentioning . . . homosexuality "used to be" illegal. 100% of the time.

In 1993, a 518-page report on a study by the Rand Corporation of gays in the military stated that in the military, as in the civilian population, sexual abuse is primarily a heterosexual problem. With rare exceptions, homosexual soldiers do not seduce, harass, or sexually abuse their fellow soldiers.

Concern for being punched out makes for many quiet evenings in the military. "Buddies" means something far different in military jargon.

My homosexual brothers and sisters are no more unusual to me, now, than men who respond to tall red-heads more than to short brunettes, or women who respond to thin, muscular, dark men more than to big blonde ones.

Somehow "the opposite sex" escaped this woman's reasoning how?

Why any of us is attracted to one person rather than another -- not only to mate with, but to cuddle affectionately with, share hopes and dreams with, work on common goals with -- is a mystery.

To whom? People have been falling in love since it could be recorded.

Why some of us love to live among flat wheat fields and some of us can't bear to be out of sight of the mountains is a mystery. Why some of us enjoy engineering bridges and some enjoy teaching very young children is a mystery.

Why someone considers a sex act a a defining cultural labeling process is another mystery. Almost all people just go on with their liveds and don't need their sex life to become a new culture and community.

If one believes that the Universe and all that is in it, including ourselves, is designed by God, then these innate preferences are part of the design.

The human body needs minerals as a design aspect. No one eats rocks or eats through their eye sockets. The design carries with a many messages about what is and what isn't a violation of that design.

After all, it would be hard for the human race to occupy the earth if we all preferred to live in the Ohio Valley, wouldn't it?

Or if somehow all people were born with the abnormality of only desiring sexual interactions (sexual orientation?) with same gender mates.

If one believes that God laid down initial conditions and let the Universe evolve in accordance with those basic principles, then these preferences can be explained by the natural tendency of life to seek to fill every niche. And homosexuality itself, which is found in all species, may be a natural response to overpopulation.

This homeless person is an expert zoologist? Anyway, evolutionary processes eliminates homosexuals from the gene pool. Not a vert nice place to find onesself being supported.

If one believes that we are all, human spirits and God, creating the Universe together, then it is as inappropriate for any of us to limit the diversity of another as it would be for one artist to leave his own canvas and begin painting over another's.

This nice new religious idea has the right to start its own organization and places to worship "it." In non-Islaimic countries that is.

Whichever particular worldview we hold, there are basic touchstones in the Bible for any Christian:

"For what has the Lord required of thee, but to do justice, love mercy,
and walk humbly with thy God?"

Doing justice is informing a person they are not walking with God correctly, if, indeed one has a relationship with God. Humblig thyself would be to not fight the hatred and persecution you would get from people that do not want to hear they are sinners. It is merciful to tell people anyway even if they imprison or kill you. The Prophets and Jesus and the disciples taech us that.

Humility toward God requires us to leave judgment to God, and to acknowledge that our expectations of that judgment may well be wrong.

Except of course for homosexuals and those that celebrate homosexuality. It seems thay cannot be wrong about anything.

Mercy requires that we serve all of our brothers and sisters equally, whether they live as we do or not. Justice does not require that we force all other people to submit to what we regard as the law of God, because that is not humility.

This ex-homeless woman is now a liberal scholar?

Justice, as laid down by all the prophets of the Old Testament, is to lay our own egos aside and serve the welfare of our fellow human beings, balancing each one's opinions of what is just against each other prayerfully.

What Old Testament Prophet would that be? These "guys" told people to repent or suffer God's wrath. Not exactly the "do what thou wilt" of the gay support system.

Or does the Bible require us to cast out homosexuals?

Which Testament? The Nw Testament only advises to kick out wanton heretics leading people astray or those practicing what ought not to be done.

Leviticus and other Old Testament passages order that men having sexual relations with other men be put to death. There is an historical reason for homosexuality being anathema among early Jews, just as "boiling a kid in its mother's milk" was -- both were practices of the idolatrous religions around them.

Ah liberal theolgy. But usually seeking things like wearing glasses would be seen easily to be seeking a "cure" for a congenital condition. Certainly you do not see myopics demanding to be classified as a new culture and community. Denying the dim-sighted a drivers license is hardly called a phobia or hate crime of nearsightedness bigotry.

Leviticus also decrees death for many other acts that we do not put people to death for today. Leviticus also decrees obedience to rituals that Paul, in the New Testament, declared Christians free from.

But NOT practicing or performing homosexual sex. Paul was more than claer about that. A Christian was to leave that behavior.

If we are supposed to put homosexuals to death, then we are also supposed to put thieves to death, offer oxen to God, and circumcise all men. If we are free of the latter laws, we are also free of the former.

On the streets, "two wrongs" may indeed be seen as a "right," but not in rational communities.

I pray for the Christians who commit the true sin of Sodom -- cruelty toward the outsider, the one who is not like you -- to be reborn in humility, mercy and justice.

To be re-born is to be made new. Amen. Have mercy for the lost and do justice by saving those lost and have the humility not to fight back when they accuse you of being a homophobe and charge you with a hate crime.

[otseng]

I am closing this thread and will discuss with the moderators if this should be reopened.