Sodom, Greece, Rome and homosexuality.

[AlAyeti]

Does allowing for diversity include parents having no voice in what their children are forced to be taught and have to accept?

Do Christians and the many other cultures and belief systems opposed to homosexuality have the right to have their culture and religious views respected in society when it comes to decent and natural sexual behavior in the education system and in public?

Are homosexuals demanding accesss to children under the label of diversity and anti-hate legislation?

This seems the number one issue between average and normal "family" people and the homosexual agenda.

Can there be laws passed that keeps homosexuality from becoming forced on children and families that oppose it, without the homosexual community and homosexual action organizations crying discrimination?

Is there such a thing anymore as heterosexual rights?

[Scrotum]

Scrotum you are such a foot slut. Feet are only meant for viginas.

Im no the one with the foot fetish, i only got one from one.


The truth is im a very boring person, as i dont drink, smoke or use drugs, neither do i feel "pubing" or parties to be much of a thrill. For me, a nice evening is a meeting with people of opposite view whom (difference from Harvey is that i prefer meeting them in REAL LIFE) are open about debating this under peaceful circumstances, and hopefully not wanting to have sex with me......

I remember a Creationist girl whom i literally pointed out that she was an idiot (her views was very Creationistic based on nothing), and she got very upset at my blunt approach and honesty of what i thought of her, But at the end of the evening she STILL wanted to have sex with me. Somethings wrong with the world when people whom claim/show to dislikee you still LIKE YOU in a physical way. Gays hitting on me is rather annoying as i give out clear none-gay signals, buy they want to try anyway.


Clearly i am an Atheist to avoid the GUILT and wanting promiscuous sex all the time.. Which is odd, as if Jesus takes all my sin away, would´nt Christianity give me a out-of-jail card for rape and murder, as Jesus would take my sin and i come to our Father in Heave?

Christians logic is really, absent.

[Grumpy]

Oh, the depravity!!!! Real people supporting each other and demanding that John mind his own business!!! And doing things with each other that John can only obcess about!!!

Poor John, he has to live in a world that really doesn't care what he thinks. And when the lights go out John can only toss and turn thinking about what they must be doing to each other!!!

John just can't deal with the fact that they are here, they are queer and they refuse to take any CRAP from john and his ilk ever again, even in the church(which is theirs as much as it is his).

John, DEAL WITH IT, it isn't going to change for you.

Grumpy

[Easyrider]

Grumpy - Can I recommend you stick with the debate item(s) and hold your personal attacks against John?

[Scrotum]

Poor John, he has to live in a world that really doesn't care what he thinks. And when the lights go out John can only toss and turn thinking about what they must be doing to each other!!!

The head on the nail.


Easyrider, but its TRUE, and it has MUCH to do with the topic as Johns PERSONAL issues are more or less the entire debate (read his posts).

[Easyrider]

Poor John, he has to live in a world that really doesn't care what he thinks. And when the lights go out John can only toss and turn thinking about what they must be doing to each other!!!

The head on the nail.

Easyrider, but its TRUE, and it has MUCH to do with the topic as Johns PERSONAL issues are more or less the entire debate (read his posts).

The moderators have continually said there are to be no personal attacks. If you or Grumpy have a problem with John's posts please either talk to the moderator or do something else, but spare us the traditional "if someone or the Bible says gay sex is a sin, crucify him" mentality. I appreciate it.

[melikio]

The moderators have continually said there are to be no personal attacks. If you or Grumpy have a problem with John's posts please either talk to the moderator or do something else, but spare us the traditional "if someone or the Bible says gay sex is a sin, crucify him" mentality. I appreciate it.

Easyrider, I agree with following the rules period.

Still, I would not say that the relatively light chastisement 1John receives from other posters (which isn't actually "personal", but against the rules nevertheless) is NOT warranted (in the real sense). You cannot continually dehumanize a whole group of people with your words, and not eventually have a negative effect.

1John does what many fundamentalist Christians do, they present information from the Bible, as if it is THE RULE for every person they relate it to. And they typically overstep their authority and autonomy, by trying to alter or manipulate the live of other individuals. Is there any wonder why people question such religion?

Even IF homosexual people weren't more "activist" about their rights (as they are today), they would STILL be hounded by homophobics and religious fundamentalist, justifying evil behavior toward them in the name of God and the Bible.

I don't know 1John, but I can fairly say, that his posts DO NOT stop with ("...someone or the Bible says gay sex is a sin..."); 1John literally attacks homosexuals; villifies them with comments he doesn't prove and stereotypes them negatively in any way he can. Something is WRONG with that, even if it doesn't seem to be directly against the rules.

But I can say that it is THAT type of dispositon toward homosexuals, which says that they aren't welcome in various churches. They already know that, in the vast majority of cases... so no one needs to be shocked at their exclusive "oases" or "fortresses", when they end up with fewer seekers and a handful "closeted" homosexuals.

God may not condone homosexual behavior (as some interpret it), but I'm virtually certain that He doesn't condone much of the CRAP I see Christians (in God's name) dumping upon the homosexual people of this world. Still, no one need be surprised that God would hand the homosexual people a way to DEFEND themselves; as He has always made a way for those to have been treated unjustly in this world (one way or the other, and in due time).

It really is time that Christian people dealing with homosexuals acknowledge that they cannot be wantonly "mistreated", then expect the best. That is, unless some are making a SPORT of being hateful... they should be concerned.

-Mel-

[Easyrider]

1John does what many fundamentalist Christians do, they present information from the Bible, as if it is THE RULE for every person they relate it to. And they typically overstep their authority and autonomy, by trying to alter or manipulate the live of other individuals.

Well, the Bible is true that gay sex is a sin, but so is adultery, fornication, etc., etc. The premise isn't to dehumanize but to save from sin. All people are sinners to some degree.

Even IF homosexual people weren't more "activist" about their rights (as they are today), they would STILL be hounded by homophobics and religious fundamentalist, justifying evil behavior toward them in the name of God and the Bible.

Seems like the pot calling the kettle black. Many gays try to dehumanize fundamentalists and try to justify their own sinful behavior.

God may not condone homosexual behavior (as some interpret it), but I'm virtually certain that He doesn't condone much of the CRAP I see Christians (in God's name) dumping upon the homosexual people of this world.

From the very beginning of Biblical times, God called on people to repent and turn back to him. Many of God's own prophets were called names and dehumanized for giving out God's word. IMO, it's time to quit coming out of the closet and start cleaning it out. And it's time to quit handing out condoms and start giving out the Word of God. And that goes for gays, straights, and anyone else. God is no respector of any individual but asks that all repent and turn to him for salvation.

Personally, I grieve for my country when I see the unbiblical attitude and behaviors of those who are trying to turn America the Great into a cesspool of unrighteousness, and call that love. Love does not rejoice in iniquity. It does a neighbor no harm like encouraging or trying to justify sin.

And I say to the gay pride movement, the federal courts, the liberal press, and the ACLU, "You have gone this far, you have gone too far, and you are not going any further. You will not run the Lord our God, nor His word, nor His commandments, nor His people, from the churches, the colleges, the halls of government, the public schools, or the courtrooms of America Ever again!"

And to those who do not answer to God we say, "There is still truth and justice and freedom in this land, and there are still those who are willing to take a stand for what's right in the eyes of God." And that's what we will continue to do.

God bless...

[melikio]

1John does what many fundamentalist Christians do, they present information from the Bible, as if it is THE RULE for every person they relate it to. And they typically overstep their authority and autonomy, by trying to alter or manipulate the live of other individuals.

Well, the Bible is true that gay sex is a sin, but so is adultery, fornication, etc., etc. The premise isn't to dehumanize but to save from sin. All people are sinners to some degree.

There ARE limits (really) to what 1John, you or anyone else can/should do to CHANGE people (even to "save" them from HELL). That needs to be taught and understood by all Christians. Forcing the reilgion (beliefs), is most often worse than people not having considered it at all.

Even IF homosexual people weren't more "activist" about their rights (as they are today), they would STILL be hounded by homophobics and religious fundamentalist, justifying evil behavior toward them in the name of God and the Bible.

Seems like the pot calling the kettle black. Many gays try to dehumanize fundamentalists and try to justify their own sinful behavior.

The pot and the kettle ARE indeed similar "colors"; and as you imply above, WE are ALL HUMAN ("Christian" or otherwise). None of us were meant to PLAY God's role, or actually accomplish what only He can do. Changing/altering people is ultimately His providence.

God may not condone homosexual behavior (as some interpret it), but I'm virtually certain that He doesn't condone much of the CRAP I see Christians (in God's name) dumping upon the homosexual people of this world.

From the very beginning of Biblical times, God called on people to repent and turn back to him. Many of God's own prophets were called names and dehumanized for giving out God's word.

It is different today, and different where we are; you have to know that and accept that. I'm not going to argue the spiritual aspects with you, because we "agree" (most likely). But the things MANY "Christians" are doing to affect homosexual peopl ein this day/age, are not justifiied (neither biblically, nor socially).

IMO, it's time to quit coming out of the closet and start cleaning it out.

Clean YOURS out, set and EXAMPLE and lets see if people are drawn to your example. The CRAP in YOUR closet, shouldn't be shoveled onto those who are dealing with what's in their own closets. Am I referring to widespread "Christian" hypocrisy? (Yes, I am.)

And it's time to quit handing out condoms and start giving out the Word of God. And that goes for gays, straights, and anyone else.

If I put a Bible in someone's hand, what would they going to DO with it?
(I've done that many times.)

If I put a condom in condom in someone's hand, what would they do with it?
(I have promoted that people care enough to PREVENT "conception" or the spreading of disease.)

I cannot TALK/PERSUADE them into being HOLY or being "Christian" (it's not MY place or within MY power as a human being. (Some things belong to God to do.) You may believe differently; yet it doesn't give you the right to place controls upon the lives of others.

God is no respector of any individual but asks that all repent and turn to him for salvation.

The problem is that TOO MANY ignorant and arrogant "Christians", try to PUSH people toward the same. They really need to stop doing that; it doesn't work and I don't believe it is what God has called anyone to do.

Personally, I grieve for my country when I see the unbiblical attitude and behaviors of those who are trying to turn America the Great into a cesspool of unrighteousness, and call that love.

Have you taken a wide look at what so-called "Christianity" (the label) has done to people the world over? It's not that the "Bible" is a problem, but that many who USE the Bible DO ABUSE others with the ideas they formulate from it. Just look for more "Christians" to be like "Jesus", and in that I believe you WILL see the real problem with the EFFECT that much of Christianity has had in the last 1000 years. (What "Christians" actually remind you of Jesus, when you look closely at what they've said and done?)

Love does not rejoice in iniquity.

It also does not compel its own way. (What is it we see in far too many (especially fundamentalist) believers? They want freakin' POWER, so they can FORCE what they believe is THE moral standard for all. It's hypocritical period.

It does a neighbor no harm like encouraging or trying to justify sin.

Be ready to say that, the next time you see:
Divorce, adultery, greed, envy, strife, lust...and the rest. You see, it is one thing to encourage people to do what is "right", it is another to DEMAND something of someone, as if one has the power of God to employ at will. No "Christian" can grab onto God's "will", and whip it around as if they OWN it (they don't own it).

And I say to the gay pride movement, the federal courts, the liberal press, and the ACLU, "You have gone this far, you have gone too far, and you are not going any further.

What is wrong with people expressing their desire to have freedom; to be free of the "religion" many wish to PRESS upon them against their will? Again, I hope you and other Christians can look at DIVORCE and some of the stuff that is obviously "sinful" about the "heterosexual lifestyle", and be so adamantly "holy" about it. As it is, there is relative silence about the LIST of faults having nothing to do with being homosexual. Actually, it wouldn't be so hard to think that "homosexuality" was the ONLY sin Christians really feel strongly about.

You will not run the Lord our God, nor His word, nor His commandments, nor His people, from the churches, the colleges, the halls of government, the public schools, or the courtrooms of America Ever again!"

Whose GOAL was it to take people to court over something that should basically be understood via The Golden Rule? Homosexuals aren't going to disappear, cease to exist or crawl into holes. They may or may not be sinful hedonists (as many heterosexuals surely are), and they may even be worthy of God's grace' even enough of it so that God might love them (as many "Christians" will not).

And to those who do not answer to God we say, "There is still truth and justice and freedom in this land, and there are still those who are willing to take a stand for what's right in the eyes of God." And that's what we will continue to do.

Do YOU know my heart or anyone else's? YOU don't know what others have struggled with, for how long or why they see the things they do now (often despite studying all the biblical, and despite the "Christian" lingo you and others throw around like it's bug-repellent).

Justice, truth and freedom from a PERFECT being need not be questioned. However, I've seen what some (labelled "Christian") have done to others in the name of "perfection" (God), and I know it is important to:

1. Scrutinize/Test what they say is "true".

2. Protect oneself from the things they'll often do, to show/prove that they are as "right" as they "say" they are.

I've seen people interpret and ACT upon what they've learned in the Bible. My conclusion is that God would be the only one I could trust implicitly. Some thing I know, others I'm still learning. I sought for over 37 years to FIX being a homosexual. I prayed, I endured anti-gay HYPE, I cried because people who THOUGHT they loved me, actually hated me (they didn't know how to handle homosexuality, not one iota).

We DO NOT need a world where people negatively HYPE every fault they see in other human beings. That is near the root-cause of so many evils, I cannot begin to express it in this thread. If someone were to see me, they would not see "gay", and I would hope they'd see something that resembled "Jesus" (just a little). I don't even see myself a homosexual, but I'm more than frequently-reminded of why I have to avoid religous-bigots, who fear more than they "love" other people.

9-11 showed the WORLD what I'm referring to above. And if love isn't the MODE and MOTIVE behind anyone's religious actions, then it is better to be critical than fall victim to the insidious plague of being "religious" for the mere sake of believing what yu've been told is "true".

-Mel-

[Scrotum]

To John: My Questions i will now ask is related to all of what you have said during this thread, and i hope you will finally answer my Questions regarding your supposed opinions (as i see hypocrisy in your stance);


1. You have claimed that Homosexuality is ´morally wrong´ (alas ´unnatural´) because anal and oral intercourse are conducted by homosexuals.

Question: Do you use Socks? A Computer? A Car? All of these things, including 99% of what humans in he contemporary world do, is unnatural, and hence, according to your own logic, ´morally wrong´.

I am only asking you, and hope you will answer: Do you do these things mentioned? Yes or No.


2. Do you as a clear Creationist, claiming in the literal word of the Bible, follow the rules of kosher?

A Yes or No is enough and examples of what you are not allowed to eat, and how it suppose to be prepared can be given.


3. Do you follow the dress code as writen in the Holy Bible? A Yes or No is enough, and examples of what you are not allowed to wear can be given.



This is all i want to know John, i hope you will answer.

[Easyrider]

There ARE limits (really) to what 1John, you or anyone else can/should do to CHANGE people (even to "save" them from HELL). That needs to be taught and understood by all Christians. Forcing the reilgion (beliefs), is most often worse than people not having considered it at all.

I'd rather have the Gospel of Christ "forced" (as you claim) on people than a doctrine of pro-gay sex forced on our children in schools; forced on the Boy Scounts of America, and forced on people everywhere as something they should accept in the name of secular "tolerance."

But the things MANY "Christians" are doing to affect homosexual peopl ein this day/age, are not justifiied (neither biblically, nor socially).

Many are justified, like calling a sinner to repentance and taking a stand against carnality.

Me: IMO, it's time to quit coming out of the closet and start cleaning it out.

You: Clean YOURS out, set and EXAMPLE and lets see if people are drawn to your example. The CRAP in YOUR closet, shouldn't be shoveled onto those who are dealing with what's in their own closets. Am I referring to widespread "Christian" hypocrisy? (Yes, I am.)

What crap in my closet? Get a life and wise up. Join in the Army of God and take a stand for his word, rather than your political correctness. Otherwise some other mother's son will have to do your duty.

You may believe differently; yet it doesn't give you the right to place controls upon the lives of others.

I have a right to vote according to my faith. You have no right to deny that.

The problem is that TOO MANY ignorant and arrogant "Christians", try to PUSH people toward the same. They really need to stop doing that; it doesn't work and I don't believe it is what God has called anyone to do.

Nonsense. This IS a work of God to take a stand against the forces that try to justify sinfulness. You are not helping God's cause one iota with all this worldliness.

Have you taken a wide look at what so-called "Christianity" (the label) has done to people the world over?

"So-called" Christianity? You mean the one that builds schools, hospitals, takes in the homeless, feeds and clothes the poor, and seeks after and promotes God's Word, etc.?

It's not that the "Bible" is a problem, but that many who USE the Bible DO ABUSE others with the ideas they formulate from it. Just look for more "Christians" to be like "Jesus", and in that I believe you WILL see the real problem with the EFFECT that much of Christianity has had in the last 1000 years. (What "Christians" actually remind you of Jesus, when you look closely at what they've said and done?)

See above.

It also does not compel its own way. (What is it we see in far too many (especially fundamentalist) believers? They want freakin' POWER, so they can FORCE what they believe is THE moral standard for all. It's hypocritical period.

What do you prefer? A society that seeks after the ways of Christ or after the ways of Sodom and Gomorrah? Choose your side. Either stand with God or stand with the Sodomites.

Divorce, adultery, greed, envy, strife, lust...and the rest. You see, it is one thing to encourage people to do what is "right", it is another to DEMAND something of someone, as if one has the power of God to employ at will. No "Christian" can grab onto God's "will", and whip it around as if they OWN it (they don't own it).

I don't see any Christian bands roaming the streets of America forcing anything. This is just more hysteria.

Is gay sex a sin or not? Yes or no?

As it is, there is relative silence about the LIST of faults having nothing to do with being homosexual. Actually, it wouldn't be so hard to think that "homosexuality" was the ONLY sin Christians really feel strongly about.

When you see an "Adultery Pride" or "Fornicator's Pride" parade, etc., let us know so we can give them equal access to our views.

Whose GOAL was it to take people to court over something that should basically be understood via The Golden Rule? Homosexuals aren't going to disappear, cease to exist or crawl into holes. They may or may not be sinful hedonists (as many heterosexuals surely are), and they may even be worthy of God's grace' even enough of it so that God might love them (as many "Christians" will not).

Christ said for sinners to repent. WHERE'S THEIR REPENTANCE? You don't seem to care if they repent or not.

YOU don't know what others have struggled with, for how long or why they see the things they do now (often despite studying all the biblical, and despite the "Christian" lingo you and others throw around like it's bug-repellent).

WHERE'S THE REPENTANCE?

I've seen people interpret and ACT upon what they've learned in the Bible. My conclusion is that God would be the only one I could trust implicitly. Some thing I know, others I'm still learning. I sought for over 37 years to FIX being a homosexual. I prayed, I endured anti-gay HYPE, I cried because people who THOUGHT they loved me, actually hated me (they didn't know how to handle homosexuality, not one iota).

Have you tried repentance and committing yourself to celibacy?