Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

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KCKID
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Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

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Post by KCKID »

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

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Danmark
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Confession

Post #511

Post by Danmark »

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I have my own prejudices about gays. I'm not proud of those prejudices, but I thought that by confessing my feelings I might help others look inward and also examine their feelings.

When I see gay guys come out I support them, but I also realize I have feelings that consider them inferior. As stupid as I know it is, I somehow feel superior to these guys who confess they do not fit with the "manly ideal" I grew up with, the ideal that is as much a part of me as being a 'real' American.

I reject these feelings, but I confess I have them. I grew up with them. They are part of me. I'm in my 60's so I may never grow out of them, but at least I can confess I think they are wrong. In confessing this, I may be confessing I am projecting when I question the motives of others who seem homophobic. So be it. I believe that one can have intellectual or academic ideals that one strongly believes in even if he himself falls short of those ideals.

In essence I hope that by this confession I can influence other crusty old folks like me to relax and at least try to change attitudes and recognize that some of our old prejudices are irrational, unjustified, and need to be released so we can be free to appreciate everyone on an equal basis. Maybe I can't completely extinguish some of those old thoughts, but at least I can come out and say that I know they are wrong.

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Re: Confession

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Danmark wrote: I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I have my own prejudices about gays. I'm not proud of those prejudices, but I thought that by confessing my feelings I might help others look inward and also examine their feelings.

When I see gay guys come out I support them, but I also realize I have feelings that consider them inferior. As stupid as I know it is, I somehow feel superior to these guys who confess they do not fit with the "manly ideal" I grew up with, the ideal that is as much a part of me as being a 'real' American.

I reject these feelings, but I confess I have them. I grew up with them. They are part of me. I'm in my 60's so I may never grow out of them, but at least I can confess I think they are wrong. In confessing this, I may be confessing I am projecting when I question the motives of others who seem homophobic. So be it. I believe that one can have intellectual or academic ideals that one strongly believes in even if he himself falls short of those ideals.

In essence I hope that by this confession I can influence other crusty old folks like me to relax and at least try to change attitudes and recognize that some of our old prejudices are irrational, unjustified, and need to be released so we can be free to appreciate everyone on an equal basis. Maybe I can't completely extinguish some of those old thoughts, but at least I can come out and say that I know they are wrong.
What you are experiencing is the difference between a 'gut reaction' and the intellectual reaction. My father had similar issues, where his intellect said that all people were created equal, but his gut reactions had a reactions against different groups. He taught, and it sank it to both my sister and me the idea of equality of all people, so he passed on his intellectual ideas, not his gut reactions.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Re: Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

Post #513

Post by The Ghetto Smoker Lady »

[Replying to post 1 by KCKID]

While there can't be a guarantee as of when homosexuals will be more excepted by the religious community, they should learn that while yes, their sexual orientation is a no-no in their book, they can't just magically not be gay. They must understand that all people are unique and while they can change their physical appearance, there isn't really a way to change the brain's properties without severely damaging it. Overall, people who are gay can not help being gay nor can they stop being so. Due to this, while someone may feel "offended" by someone's unchangeable sexual orientation, they got to realize that the world neither revolves around that own individual nor their religion, and sadly can't always get their way. Religious people should know that they can make a suggestion of how to live, but should not dictate it.

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Re: Confession

Post #514

Post by Danmark »

Goat wrote:
Danmark wrote: I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I have my own prejudices about gays. I'm not proud of those prejudices, but I thought that by confessing my feelings I might help others look inward and also examine their feelings.

When I see gay guys come out I support them, but I also realize I have feelings that consider them inferior. As stupid as I know it is, I somehow feel superior to these guys who confess they do not fit with the "manly ideal" I grew up with, the ideal that is as much a part of me as being a 'real' American.

I reject these feelings, but I confess I have them. I grew up with them. They are part of me. I'm in my 60's so I may never grow out of them, but at least I can confess I think they are wrong. In confessing this, I may be confessing I am projecting when I question the motives of others who seem homophobic. So be it. I believe that one can have intellectual or academic ideals that one strongly believes in even if he himself falls short of those ideals.

In essence I hope that by this confession I can influence other crusty old folks like me to relax and at least try to change attitudes and recognize that some of our old prejudices are irrational, unjustified, and need to be released so we can be free to appreciate everyone on an equal basis. Maybe I can't completely extinguish some of those old thoughts, but at least I can come out and say that I know they are wrong.
What you are experiencing is the difference between a 'gut reaction' and the intellectual reaction. My father had similar issues, where his intellect said that all people were created equal, but his gut reactions had a reactions against different groups. He taught, and it sank it to both my sister and me the idea of equality of all people, so he passed on his intellectual ideas, not his gut reactions.
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KCKID
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Re: Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

Post #515

Post by KCKID »

The Ghetto Smoker Lady wrote: [Replying to post 1 by KCKID]
The Ghetto Smoker Lady wrote:While there can't be a guarantee as of when homosexuals will be more excepted by the religious community, they should learn that while yes, their sexual orientation is a no-no in their book, . . .
However, that really is not the case. Most Christians just think that sexual orientation is addressed in the Bible. I've become more convinced than ever since initiating this thread that homosexuality is not addressed in the Bible at all. Had not the terms "homosexuality/homosexual" been added to the Bible in 1946 (by the Bible's authors and NOT by God!) this subject would probably not be a 'scriptural' issue at all. I have YET to see convincing evidence that ANY of the original words in the Bible, whether Hebrew or Greek, unequivocally mean "homosexual".

Where there DO appear to be references to same gender sexual practices in the Bible they are always associated with pagan sexual ritual practices and idolatry. I challenge anyone to provide scripture where this is NOT the case.

The Ghetto Smoker Lady wrote:. . .they can't just magically not be gay.
Nor should they be expected to 'not be gay' simply to appease Christians.
The Ghetto Smoker Lady wrote:They must understand that all people are unique and while they can change their physical appearance, there isn't really a way to change the brain's properties without severely damaging it. Overall, people who are gay can not help being gay nor can they stop being so. Due to this, while someone may feel "offended" by someone's unchangeable sexual orientation, they got to realize that the world neither revolves around that own individual nor their religion, and sadly can't always get their way. Religious people should know that they can make a suggestion of how to live, but should not dictate it.
I really doubt that any ultra conservative Christian who may use the Bible to support homophobia and bigotry would even stop to consider how hurtful they can be to gay people. The best anyone can do to these folks (ultra conservative Christians) is to counter their 'gay condemning' scriptures with more accurate (hermeneutic) evaluations of these same scriptures then simply ignore them. Mindsets are very difficult to change, especially those that are driven by religion. It's hardly worth the effort to even try.

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Post #516

Post by Strider324 »

It looks like the mainstream is moving forward.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/0 ... 16448.html
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Re: Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

Post #517

Post by Danmark »

KCKID wrote:I really doubt that any ultra conservative Christian who may use the Bible to support homophobia and bigotry would even stop to consider how hurtful they can be to gay people. The best anyone can do to these folks (ultra conservative Christians) is to counter their 'gay condemning' scriptures with more accurate (hermeneutic) evaluations of these same scriptures then simply ignore them. Mindsets are very difficult to change, especially those that are driven by religion. It's hardly worth the effort to even try.[/color]
I know that many [I'm ignoring "ultra conservative"] Christians have indeed changed in part because they've recognized how hurtful their public pronouncements have become. They've changed. They've simply met too many people, often relatives and friend and friends of friends so they understand the sincerity of those with alternate gender attractions. Many of these Christians have made a conscious effort to change the way they think and what they believe and say. They've done it out of Christian love.

I think this is a big reason we have statistics now, such as those reported by Strider,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/0 ... 16448.html

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Post #518

Post by lamar1234 »

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Check the year the Catholic Church pardonied Galileo

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Post #519

Post by Talishi »

lamar1234 wrote: [Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Check the year the Catholic Church pardonied Galileo
The Catholic Church "pardoned" Galileo in 1992. Galileo had nothing to be pardoned about, other than being right.
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