Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

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KCKID
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Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

Post #1

Post by KCKID »

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

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Danmark
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Post #501

Post by Danmark »

Clownboat wrote:....
Because IMO, your view towards homosexuals will soon be viewed like those that use to think women and non white races were not their equals.
There are millions of good, Bible affirmiing Christians who are already there. They have comforted and stood up for the adult children of Christians; children who have been shunned by their own parents for being honest about who they are and about characteristics they feel they have no control over.

My impression is that as gays and lesbians have felt more comfort to come out of their dark closet, more and more have been encouraged to admit who they are. As sensitive and compassionate Christians have seen more and more of their own cousins, brothers, nieces, nephews, grandchildren and other relatives step up and declare both their Christian, Bible believing faith as well as their sexual nature, those straight and usually older Christians have been compelled to look more deeply into scripture and have realized their former attitudes and opinions needed to change.

KCKID
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Post #502

Post by KCKID »

99percentatheism wrote: [Replying to post 479 by KCKID]
I don't think that Jesus ever predicted that 'hateful stuff' would in the future be passed off as being "Jesus-breathed" or that those who would do so would find His approval.
How true. How prophetic really. To think that people that believe as Jesus does that marriage is between a man and a woman are now charged as bigots, hateful and "homophobic" is truly shocking. But of course very telling to the times in which we all live. Like Jesus said, the world hated Him first. We should expect no less.
One of the several silly things about your argument, 99percent, is that gay marriage in NO WAY affects the 'conventional' marriage between a man and a woman. Men and women can, and will, still continue to marry one another. So, in actuality, your argument amounts to NO argument at all.

Another silly thing about your argument is that no adult in their right mind is going to go to a book to determine for them who they are allowed to be attracted to, who they are allowed to love, and ...who they are allowed to marry. Such an argument is beyond nonsense and, surely, you should know better.

As for your 'martyr-complex' statement about being hated by the world just as Jesus predicted ...well, words fail me . . .! That you appear to have no idea why people have a tendency to come at you like they do suggests that you're not thinking as clearly as you might.

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Post #503

Post by 99percentatheism »

Clownboat
IMO . . . How is your direct insult to me not a violation of the rules here? Why do so many people feel so comfortable addressing me directly in thread after thread instead of addressing positions and points?

Why doesn't anyone report these direct and uncivil insults addressed directly at me?
Let's see if I owe you an apology shall we?
By the very structure of your sentence you prove that.

But debate moves on from beating the proverbial dead horse.
Clownboat wrote:you just don't realize it because you interpret a holy book in a way to suite "your agenda" and thus feel justified with your unequal treatment of our fellow humans.
Do you or do you not get your stance on gay marriage etc... from a holy book that you are interpreting?
No of course not.
I
get "gay marriage" form the gay agenda and gay culture. It doesn't exist in any holy book that
I
know of.
Do you or do you not feel justified for the way you treat homosexuals due to said holy book?
I don't treat homosexuals any different than I treat anyone that doesn't engage in homosexuality. So your personally directed query has no basis in reality.
Do you or do you not want homosexuals to be "married", just like heterosexuals?
I
simply do not want "marriage" altered and redefined. Incest springs quickly to mind.
I think we all know the answers on these accounts and therefore I do not owe you any sort of apology. Feel free to correct me on your source if it's not the Bible though.
It was effortless to show your antagonistic demands as such.
It is funny to watch you try to play the victim card. Is there a reason you did not report the post, because I have an assumption?
I
am a victim simply by the reality of posts like yours.

Unless of course
I
am now to be considered an actualityaphobe?

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Post #504

Post by 99percentatheism »

Danmark wrote:
Clownboat wrote:....
Because IMO, your view towards homosexuals will soon be viewed like those that use to think women and non white races were not their equals.
There are millions of good, Bible affirmiing Christians who are already there. They have comforted and stood up for the adult children of Christians; children who have been shunned by their own parents for being honest about who they are and about characteristics they feel they have no control over.

My impression is that as gays and lesbians have felt more comfort to come out of their dark closet, more and more have been encouraged to admit who they are. As sensitive and compassionate Christians have seen more and more of their own cousins, brothers, nieces, nephews, grandchildren and other relatives step up and declare both their Christian, Bible believing faith as well as their sexual nature, those straight and usually older Christians have been compelled to look more deeply into scripture and have realized their former attitudes and opinions needed to change.
Christians are sweet people by nature. Their new nature. The wolf in sheep's clothing knows this. But the time-honored pastors are waking them up:

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Post #505

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to 99percentatheism]

Romans 14:1-4

As for the ones weak in faith welcome him but do not quarrel over opinions. One person believes he might eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstaine, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him in. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stande or falls.

It seems to me you have to ignore scripture to maintain your stance.

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Post #506

Post by 99percentatheism »

DanieltheDragon
[Replying to 99percentatheism]
Romans 14:1-4

As for the ones weak in faith welcome him but do not quarrel over opinions. One person believes he might eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstaine, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him in. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stande or falls.

It seems to me you have to ignore scripture to maintain your stance.
Really? Let me show you that indeed I am not.

You're a brother in Christ?

Awesome if that is so. But brother (if, it is so), the ignoring of scripture is clearly from those that promote and encourage homosexuality.

Let's continue with Paul.

"If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?

Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church?

I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already.

Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?

Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters.

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And that is what some of you were.

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality

“I have the right to do anything,� you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything�—but I will not be mastered by anything. You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.�

The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.� But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

- 1 Corinthians 6 (NIV)

_____________________________________________________________


Now the issue with "gays" (people that engage in homosexuality right?) then , is really, will they as individuals, ever accept Mainstream Christianity and leave their commitment to a life outside of the faith?

That looks to be no, but let's us pray they follow the same truth as it was in the original condition of "mainstream Christianity" as evidenced by Paul's consistent theology on the matter. And, of course, the rest of the testimony of the New Testament that is in harmony with Paul. Which of course was instituted (delivered) by Jesus. But of course, not the worldview demanded by the gay agenda, which looks to be not in keeping with "the faith delivered only once to the saints." Which is a quote from Jude, that shows Jude's consistency with Paul's views.

99percentatheism
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Post #507

Post by 99percentatheism »

Please show me where "pagan" marriage that predates Christianity is even remotely important to Christians and Christianity? This thread is about "mainstream Christianity."



[Replying to post 495 by Clownboat]

What "Christian marriage" is:
‘For this reason . . .
The context of the argument that elicited that statement was about "divorce." No one in the modern world can deny that "divorce" breaks up a "married couple."

What is a married "Christian" couple?
. . . a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.�
Now, it is only the absurd that can demand that a "wife" being referred to here by Jesus could be a man. In fact, it is impossible:
“Haven’t you read,� he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said . . .,
In fact, everywhere "marriage" is referenced in the New Testament it is immutably man and woman/husband and wife. No matter what Mel White and Matthew Vines demand "in The Church."

And, Who, is Jesus?
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
And we have the definition of a "Christian" marriage. From the Creator.
In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
And never will in IMCO.
Last edited by 99percentatheism on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #508

Post by 99percentatheism »

Divine Insight
99percentatheism wrote: Why do homosexuals want to force others to affirm and celebrate gay behavior? Is it because they "hate" anyone that doesn't?
I think this issue is far more complex than you are willing to admit.
'I' wish "I" didn't have to be the personal subject of so many posts, but I do realize that the Sodom story may indeed not be just a metaphor.

"I" have shown time and again that "I" present very complex aspects to the gay agenda.
To begin with many gays may not even want to be "Christians'.
That is self evident.
They couldn't care less about Christianity.
Another true statement.
What they want is a right to marry under secular law. It doesn't really need to have anything at all to do with Christianity or the Bible.
That's not true. There are gay pride proponents right now all through Christian denominations making that demand.
After all, aren't Muslims allowed to marry in the USA? They aren't Christians. So they clearly aren't being married in the eyes of Christianity or the Christian God.
I have made that statement. Why should Christians care what non and anti Christians engage in IF IT IS NOT being demanded in The Church? OR, to discriminate against us under secular law. . .. I don't see Islamic activists claiming to be "reverends" in Christian denominations. But gay pride proponents exist in that category very famously.
What about atheists? Are atheists allowed to get married in the USA? Is so, what does that have to do with the Bible or the Christian God.

Jews get married. Wiccan's get married. And so on.

There is no recognized connection between "marriage" and Christianity in the secular laws of the USA.

So really the fact that gays want to be married in the USA has nothing at all to do with Christianity.
Do you realize that I hold that exact position. And, I have written that many, many, many times.
Of course, if they want to be married in a Christian Church that's an entirely different story. However, if gays want to be married in a Christian Church then surely it can only be because those particular gays consider themselves to also be Christians.

This now comes to asking you, "Who are you to say who is a Christian and who is not?"
By their fruit you will know them. The gay pride flag does not represent Christian ideals. It represents a community that is decidedly the antithesis of Christian reality.
If you disagree with a gay Christian, then you are arguing with another Christian.
Only here at www.debatingchristianity.com
If they interpret the Bible differently from you so what? So do many other Christian denominations. There's nothing new there.
I know that. I am the author of a thread with over 100,000 views about "the Gay Denomination." Places I avoid like I do Stakes and Kingdom Halls.
Who are you to tell another Christian how they must interpret the Bible?
An honest Christian.
This is especially true if you are a Protestant. Protestantism originated precisely because the Protestants protested against the authority of the Catholic Church and it's Pope to interpret the Bible for other people. So ironically if you are a Protestant then you are against your own denomination by demanding how other people need to interpret the Bible. You are basically demanding to be the Pope of Protestantism.
Go back a read that. Who are you to play Pope over me? State theological reasons that can support homosexualization of Christianity and get back to me with that justification. There is none you will be able to produce from scripture.
Protestants are supposed to allow the Holy Spirit to guide each individual as they read the scriptures.
What??? Show me where that theology finds its roots in the Bible? I will not discuss the Holy Spirit in any other way on these forums though.
If gay Christians don't see any problem with same gender consummated love, then that's their feedback from the Holy Spirit. Who are you to say they are wrong?
Who are you to ask this? Where is the theology for your demand?
For you to demand that they accept your interpretation of scriptures is no different from you demanding to be the POPE.
Not so. I am just following good advice from an honest Christian and honestly honoring that:

"Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!� Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.� These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

A Call to Persevere

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.� These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.


Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

Doxology

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."

- Jude, NIV

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Post #509

Post by Elijah John »

Clownboat wrote:
99% wrote:Why do homosexuals want to force others to affirm and celebrate gay behavior? Is it because they "hate" anyone that doesn't?
Clownboat wrote:Why do woman want to force others to affirm and celebrate equal rights? Is it because they "hate" anyone that doesn't?
I want the readers to be clear that I am addressing a verbatim quote that 99% made. I correlated his quote with the woman's rights movement. And then offered my opinion as to why, but unfortunately that part was not included in my post that was moderated.

My point was addressing his statement about homosexuals, not him personally. What I said in full context which was left out of the moderation was:
Your "cry" is no different IMO, you just don't realize it because you interpret a holy book in a way to suite "your agenda" and thus feel justified with your unequal treatment of our fellow humans.
As you can see, I am addressing his "cry" about homosexuals wanting to force others to affirm and celebrate gay behavior. I address his "cry" by comparing it to woman's rights.

I make this clarification because I was quoted out of context and that out of context quote got moderated.
Leave, "your cry is no different IMO" out does make it appear that I am only addressing 99%, but it needs to remain since it was originally there.
:warning: Moderator Warning


Your clarification is actually a challenge and dispute of moderator action, and should be handled via the PM system, and NOT on the boards.


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My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post #510

Post by Elijah John »

KCKID wrote:
99percentatheism wrote: [Replying to post 479 by KCKID]
... surely, you should know better.

As for your 'martyr-complex' statement about being hated by the world just as Jesus predicted ...well, words fail me . . .! That you appear to have no idea why people have a tendency to come at you like they do suggests that you're not thinking as clearly as you might.[/color]
:warning: Moderator Warning


Even though 99 somewhat invited your response here by comparing the persecution of the Christian to the persecution of Jesus, your response is personal, and can be considered an attack. Please limit yourself to addressing the content of the post without reference to the poster's personality.


Please review our Rules.

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Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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