Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

KCKID · Post by **KCKID** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:36 pm

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isnâ€™t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:24 pm

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 443 by 99percentatheism]

On this website anyone can say they are a Christian and have utter support to claim that.
Its not just one person that has accepted gays. It is whole denominations. Its not just one person. And since we are talking about the OP it simply states will mainstream Christianity accept gay marriage, not conservative literal christianity. I agree though a literal interpretation of the bible is not conducive to acceptance of homosexuality. However, people are not beholden to a literal interpretation nor have they ever. In fact I dare say you disagree with the bible on some issues. Do you think its ok to beat a slave to death so long as he doesn't die the first day? If you answer no then you don't agree with a strictly literal interpretation. Yes mainstream Christians already accept LGBT individuals it is only the extremists that don't.

Excellent point! It puts me in mind of two quotes:
One is from our own Charles Norman. "Reading the Bible literally is a great way to devalue and trivialize it."
and
â€œHe who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in loving himself better than all."
_ Samuel Taylor Coleridge

What happens with the Biblical literalist is that he makes an idol of the Bible and his own literal interpretation of it which he clings to as if it is himself, thus putting his own narrow view in opposition to the wider principle of love and acceptance that Jesus taught. These folks will become increasingly marginalized as they put the worst face possible on Christianity. They will fight among themselves as well because what they are really doing is self promotion, each of them seeking to claim to speak for God.

The grammatically corrected quote from 99 makes this point:
"On this website anyone can say he is a Christian and have utter support to claim that."

Clownboat · Post by **Clownboat** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:00 pm

99percentatheism wrote: [Replying to post 441 by Deidre32]

Deidre32 wrote: Why did this morph into a debate about Christian marriage? The topic title of the thread has to do with if gay people will ever be accepted by mainstream Christianity. And the truth is, yes.

Christianity is made up of various denominations and different people. People make up the Christian church, and they can choose who they accept and who they don't. If you choose to not accept gay people as part of your Christian community, then that is up to you. The Bible states a whole host of contradictory messages within it, and it's no wonder it's interpreted a variety of ways by religious people.
On this website anyone can say they are a Christian and have utter support to claim that.

And that contradictory message in the Bible? Please show one contradiction about same gender marriage or the encouraging of gay sex acts? And of course the contradiction would be a supportive statement. Which of course does not exist anywhere in any part of the Bible.

The OP itself indicates that this support for homosexuality has not happened. That some liberal and universalist religious organizations or groups have embraced the celebration of homosexuality and homosexuals, well, it's nothing new to Christianity's history, that there are movements and groups that embrace what isn't supported in the New Testament. Mormon's are quick to realize that.

"Accepting gay people" is not the same thing as accepting homosexuality and gay marriage. And gay marriage celebrates and legitimizes homosexual acts. It is unbelievable that anyone would deny that. This is why the term "gay agenda" is so valid to use for the gay pride and gay liberation movement. From one increment of getting the masses conditioned one step at a time. That "marriage equality" an utterly secular political movement has activists in some liberal religious enclaves is proof of that.

And there are always going to be people and groups within the Church that do embrace "the world and its ways." As Jesus, Peter, Jude and Paul point out. And their voices portray the hope, prayers and actions is for repentance of ever embracing sin and sinning as if it were a pop culture fad.

It is hardly a Christian endeavor to become like and parrot an anti-Christ and be an adversary of "mainstream Christianity" and claim one is still working for and with The Church. But history is replete with these kinds of people and movements being commonplace within The Church.

A revival of and in "The Church" can hardly be seen in embracing the support and condoning of lesbianism (Sapphoism, feminist movement), male gay behavior and bi-sexuals (going back and forth from gender to gender for sexual pleasure). And the transgendered, transvestite and gender identity movements? Some ultra liberal will have to come along and prove how they can be encouraged in "The Church." Where is the "mainstream Christian" voice for the encouragement to embrace being a Drag Queen and gender reassignment.

So, the answer to the OP is a resounding NO from the voices in the New Testament that developed and show what is and what isn't "mainstream Christianity"

Otherwise there would be clear and unambiguous points and positions for liberal theologians and gay theology to solidly prove their case from out of scripture instead of the political ploy of "moving on" to something new and foreign being able to be substantiated as replacing the "faith delivered only once to the saints."

And as Jesus proclaims, that can never happen anyway. The "gates of hell will not prevail" against it. That "it" being The Church. Or, as the OP portrays, is "mainstream Christianity."

So, since the gay pride and homosexuality promoting activists have already shown, there are already religious places where they can ply their gay pride trade. No need then to approach "mainstream Christianity" to embrace the gay agenda. But one fascinating aspect to that needs to be highlighted. "The world and its ways" that is to say the modern secular movement will embrace those kinds of places as one of their own (Just listen to State of Belief radio). "Mainstream Christianity" will still be as rejected by "the world" as it was when Jesus and the Apostles formed it. One could portray the modern progressive movement as neo-Roman in identity.

The OP should be understood as asking" Will gays (homosexuals) ever accept "mainstream Christianity?" And if political correctness and the gay pride movement (encouraging and supporting homosexuality) is any proof of what the answer is, that answer is also a resounding NO. And that NO is encouraged by a large amount of liberal, universalist and non and anti Christian theological positions.

Now, it is far past time for Bible-affirming Christians to let go of the gay issue and just live with it and stop trying to interact with homosexuals in the evangelistic venue. That is what "The Gay Denomination" thread was all about. It's not like the underground gay world wasn't always there. History is very accurate about homosexuals and their proclivities and desires. It's just now not underground but is a thriving political agenda of determined homosexual activists. "Mainstream Christianity," since its founding has always had to deal with insidious secular power wanting Church influence and social power. The gay agenda and gay pride movement is nothing new there.

Again, as history is not silent on this issue: NO, is the answer to the OP.

As Jesus preached:

If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

- Gospel of John 15

In my opinion, what you claim is necessarily false. And I'll show why.

Your claims about homosexuality have been demonstrated to not include men born with a vagina having no idea that they have hidden testicles or that they are actually men even though they have lived their entire lives as females for example.

You use the Bible to condemn homosexuality, but you fail to acknowledge that your condemnation does not account for what these people should do if they wanted to live according to the way you interpret the Bible.

Should they divorce their husbands which is a no no?
Should they stay married to their same sex partners?
Should they stay married, but stop using their vagina's for sex and hope that god will look past their same sex marriage because at least now they are not engaging in same sex, sex?

These people exist, and your claims do not account for them. So for you to claim any kind of moral authority on the matter while using the Bible, in my opinion, carries zero weight. Claim what you will, but many will observe that your claims are only accurate for most of mankind, not for all of mankind, and that is a glaring problem.

You just cannot pretend to have the answers when your answers only include a portion of the population (majority or not).

Deidre32 · Post by **Deidre32** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:12 pm

[Replying to post 443 by 99percentatheism]

And what makes you think Jesus would reject homosexuals?

Deidre32 · Post by **Deidre32** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:13 pm

and, I agree w/Clownboat. Great post.

99percentatheism · Post by **99percentatheism** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:27 am

Wordleymaster
[Replying to post 443 by 99percentatheism]

gay marriage celebrates and legitimizes homosexual acts.

Only if you allow it to.

If I and a billion of other Bible affirming Christians don't, we are called homophobes, haters, intolerant, fundamentalists, EXTREMISTS and are vilified by secular and non and anti Christian forces. And of course liberal/progressive religious activists. It looks like tolerance must be demanded.

Gay marriage is simply the legal union of two people in a way that culture identifies.

To say that marriage is not about legitimizing sexual behavior is not in keeping with reality. Why is the white gown still important? Um, for a woman.

It doesn't involve you, your soul or your eternity and as such, isn't any of your business (assuming you aren't the one getting married that is).

If that were true, then Christians that uphold the reality of the immutability of what a "Christian marriage is, which is totally definable as man and woman in the New Testament, wouldn't be vilified and defined negatively. They would be defined as Christians doing the right thing as Christians should.

If a person thinks that 'sexual acts' hetero- or homo- is all marriage is about has no understanding of what a marriage actually is. Which is sad really.

Do you think Jesus is an idiot? His discussion that evoked this response was talking about adultery. That would put it in the classification of sexuality. Eh hem, behavior.

I don't like to hunt. So guess what: I DON'T HUNT. If you don't like gay marriage, then don't get married to someone of your own gender.

People that hunt are vilified for not refusing to hunt like the animal rights legion demand.

You don't have to accept it in order for you to live your life. You don't have to accept if in order for gay people to live their lives.

Reality does not seem to be agreeing with you. Ask Soulforce and Matthew Vines.
They are indeed forcing every Christian to be pro homosexuality. Promoting gay behavior causes schism in the Denoms that are forced to accept it.

You are free not to like it, claim it's not God's will or that frogs and turtles are the same thing - it doesn't matter.

Saying a man is another man's "husband" and a woman is another woman's "wife" is far more like saying a turtle is a frog. In Christian truth, neither exist. Yet, there is a post here about "gay affirming" denominations, that include a form of marriage that doesn't exist in Christian "biblical" reality. Do the math.

No one has been able to show that gay marriage is so bad it should not be made legal.

Sodomy and adultery laws were abolished in the 70's and society celebrated promiscuity. AIDS was ushered in in the 80's. Abortion as birth control still slaughters millions.

It's all about personal choice, freedom and conviction. None of those things affect others.

That's demonstrably false. Promiscuity and other sexual freedoms has actually killed people that had nothing to with the individual promiscuous individual. Celebrating homosexuality will affect children as soon as they enter the education system. There will be (actually are) no boundaries to any behavior being "affirmed." Licentiousness is certainly deadly. And please note that the celebration of homosexuality is forced on families. There is no avoidance of gay pride accept in home schooled families. Families under attack from society as we write.

Thus, the whole 'gaymarriage is bad and shouldn't be made legal' is non-sense of nothing more than personal feelings. Which as pointed out, should have no bearing on others.

Homosexual "marriage," which of course finds no support from the New Testament, has been legal in history. And found itself out of favor. Even in non Christian societies. Why is it so repulsed and rejected I wonder? (Not really.)

History is not silent on this issue. And those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Are doomed to repeat it. Are doomed to repeat it. Are doomed to repeat it.

But that is the doomed path mankind seems to desire.

Look up the history of pederasty. And that includes the desires of Sappho.

99percentatheism · Post by **99percentatheism** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:01 am

DanieltheDragon
[Replying to post 443 by 99percentatheism]

On this website anyone can say they are a Christian and have utter support to claim that.

Its not just one person that has accepted gays. It is whole denominations. Its not just one person. And since we are talking about the OP it simply states will mainstream Christianity accept gay marriage, not conservative literal christianity.

"Literal" Christianity? That is redundant. And, a literal Christian marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. The lists of "gay affirming" denominations are rejecting what Jesus said.

Of course.

I agree though a literal interpretation of the bible is not conducive to acceptance of homosexuality. However, people are not beholden to a literal interpretation nor have they ever.

Prove that. There are absolutes in the New Testament. And, when violated, repentance is the answer. Not the becoming like an anti Christian. In fact, the New testament is literal about that.

In fact I dare say you disagree with the bible on some issues. Do you think its ok to beat a slave to death so long as he doesn't die the first day?

Yawn. How many times did this happen in the history of Israel???? Please provide an answer.

If you answer no then you don't agree with a strictly literal interpretation. Yes mainstream Christians already accept LGBT individuals it is only the extremists that don't.

Well, well well. That didn't take long. It is amazing how fast my positions are proven valid.

Jesus the extremest. Only agrees with His fellow extremists. Not the liberal theologians and their followers.

'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

And THAT reason??? Marriage.

Here is a short list for you to go through of denominations and churches that accept LGBT individuals and gay marriage.
North America[edit]

MCCNY, a church in New York City.

Grace Gospel Chapel, in Seattle.
Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries
Anthem Phoenix & Family of Churches
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Community of Christ
Ecclesia Gnostica
Ecumenical Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Episcopal Church (United States)
Evangelical Anglican Church In America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
The Evangelical Network
Friends General Conference
Friends of Jesus Fellowship
Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
Inclusive Orthodox Church
Metropolitan Community Church
Old Catholic Church
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Progressive Christian Alliance
Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA) â€” a Latter Day Saint denomination
St. Priapus Church
United Church of Christ
United Church of Canada
Unity Church
Europe[edit]
German Lutheran, reformed and united churches in Evangelical Church in Germany
German, Swiss, Austrian and Dutch Old Catholic Church
Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Swiss reformed churches in Swiss Reformed Church
Protestant Church in the Netherlands
Church of Denmark
Church of Norway
Church of Sweden
Church of Iceland
United Protestant Church in Belgium
Portugal - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
British Quakers
Wales - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Albania - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Italy (CELI)[4]
Poland - Christian United Church in Poland
United Kingdom - United Ecumenical Catholic Church
Central and South America[edit]
Brazil - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Brazil - Catholic Diversity
Colombia - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
AChurch4Me (Chicago,IL)
Anthem Phoenix (Phoenix, Arizona)
New Day Worship Center (Toccoa, Georgia)
Bethlehem Community, Faithful Companions of St. Francis â€“ religious community within Ecumenical Catholic Church (Liverpool, England)
Broadway United Methodist Church (Indianapolis, IN)
Cathedral of Hope (Dallas, Texas, USA)
Christ Chapel of the Valley (North Hollywood (Los Angeles), CA) - a member of the evangelical Christ Chapel Association of Churches
Church of St. Luke and The Epiphany, Episcopal (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA)
Church of the Valley (Van Nuys, CA) - Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Community Parish of St Bernadette Liverpool â€“ congregation of Ecumenical Catholic Church (Liverpool, England)
Glendale City Seventh-day Adventist Church (Glendale, California, USA)
Glide Memorial Church (San Francisco, California, USA)
Lakeside Church (Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA)
Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Church (San Francisco, California, USA)
New Covenant Church Sydney - A Pentecostal affirming church (Sydney, Australia)
Grace Gospel Chapel (Seattle, Washington, USA)
Seattle First Baptist Church (Seattle, Washington, USA)
Hagia Sophia Gnostic Church - Ecclesia Gnostica (Seattle, Washington, USA)
Light of Love Fellowship (St. Louis, Missouri, USA)
Pullen Memorial Baptist Church (Raleigh, North Carolina, USA)
Spirit of Joy Christian Church (Lakeville, Minnesota, USA) - Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
St. Mark's Anglican Church - a bilingual congregation (Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico)
Tong-Kwang Light House Presbyterian Church (Taipei, Taiwan)
University Baptist Church (Austin, Texas, USA)
St. Paul's Anglican Church (Vancouver, BC)
Wake Forest Baptist Church (Winston-Salem, North Carolina, USA)
Walnut Creek United Methodist Church (Walnut Creek, California, USA)
Living Spirit United Methodist Church (Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA)
Greenland Hills United Methodist Church (Dallas, TX, USA)
Ekklesia Tou Theou (Church of God), (Cavite, Philippines)
[1] Olivet-Schwenkfelder United Church of Christ, (East Norriton, Pennsylvania, USA)
Remain Ministries Southwest Florida - Non-Denominational/Pentecostal Church (Cape Coral/Fort Myers, Florida, USA)
Open Doors Community Church, (Seoul, South Korea)
Trinity Episcopal Church (St. Louis, Missouri, USA)

How often did schism happen?

The United Church of Christ is, by definition, congregational, thus the views of one church may not be forced or taken on by another church. Thus, many views vary among various congregations within the Church of Christ. David Roozen, the director for the Hartford Institute for Religion Research, has stated that the overall pronouncements and polices of the national church is often more liberal than what individual churches uphold.

. . . but only 10 percent of UCC congregations actually have an official "Open and Affirming" statement.

http://christianteens.about.com/od/homo ... xualit.htm

By their fruit you will know them:

The United Methodist Church approaches schism: How gay ...
www.slate.com/.../the_united_methodist_ ... ches_schis...
Slate
Jul 23, 2014 - It was 1997. I was 16, right up front, and one of more than 1000 delegates to the United Methodist Church's East Ohio Youth Annual ...
Episcopal Church Split - Huffington Post
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../episcopal-church-split/
The Huffington Post
Gay Rights Activists Keep Close Eye On New Anglican Leader ... For nearly a decade, the 77 million-member Anglican church has been caught in an internal ...
United Methodist Church Facing Split on Gay Issues
guardianlv.com/.../united-methodist-church-facing-split-on-gay-issues/
Jun 8, 2014 - In 2012, the Episcopal Church split when it could not come to an agreement about gay rights. The Boy Scouts of America has been in a ...
Presbyterian Church schism over gay ordination splits ...
www.abcactionnews.com/.../presbyterian- ... chism-over...
WFTSâ€‘TV
Apr 4, 2013 - But the church split during the Civil War over how the Bible was interpreted. ... they should preach that the gay and lesbian lifestyle is their right.
American Anglican Church Grants Gay Rights, Causes Schism - RealJock
www.realjock.com/article/1471
The Episcopal Church's promise to elect gay bishops and bless gay unions has caused a final rupture within the Anglican communion.
Is Gay Marriage Destroying the United Methodist Church ...
www.christianitytoday.com/.../is-gay-ma ... ristianity Today
Jun 11, 2014 - (UPDATED) Progressives violate ban on same-sex unions, sparking fresh talk of schism.
Trying to avoid split, United Methodist pastors propose new ...
www.washingtonpost.com/...split...gay-r ... 7195...The Washington Post
Jun 6, 2014 - It offers churches and regional bodies the option to make up their own minds on issues like affirming gay clergy and same-sex marriage.
Same-gender debate rekindles schism talk - The United ...
www.umc.org/.../same-gender-debate-reki...
The United Methodist Church
May 29, 2014 - Lots has been happening related to church unity and the struggle over church ... as one of the best essays on historic schisms within Methodism. .... Only one state â€” North Dakota â€” with a gay marriage ban is not facing some ...
United Methodist Church faces schism over same-sex ...
www.christiantoday.com/...[b]church.split.schism[/b].same.sex.marriage.gay.../...
May 29, 2014 - United Methodist Church faces schism over same-sex marriage and gay clergy issues. Some pastors say a schism has already occurred.
History of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and conflicts over ...
www.religioustolerance.org/h...
Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
Jun 25, 2014 - Schisms and mergers in the Presbyterian tradition in the U.S.: ... D.C., pastor in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) who supports gay rights.

Alas, prophecy and history collide:

Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to Godâ€™s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwellingâ€”these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, â€œThe Lord rebuke you!â€� Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinctâ€”as irrational animals doâ€”will destroy them.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaamâ€™s error; they have been destroyed in Korahâ€™s rebellion.

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualmâ€”shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprootedâ€”twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: â€œSee, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.â€� These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, â€œIn the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.â€� These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in Godâ€™s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fearâ€”hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joyâ€” to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Wordleymaster1 · Post by **Wordleymaster1** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:58 am

[Replying to post 451 by 99percentatheism]

Post 451: Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:27 am 0Î” 0âˆ‡

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wordleymaster
[Replying to post 443 by 99percentatheism]

Quote:
gay marriage celebrates and legitimizes homosexual acts.

Quote:
Only if you allow it to.

If I and a billion of other Bible affirming Christians don't, we are called homophobes, haters, intolerant, fundamentalists, EXTREMISTS and are vilified by secular and non and anti Christian forces.

It seems here you're saying "If I don't others will say I'm this or that". Shouldn't you care less about what others think of you? Can you not let these things bother you if they don't effect you? Or do you allow them to affect you so you can complain about it?

To say that marriage is not about legitimizing sexual behavior is not in keeping with reality.

Then I would guess you're living in a different reality than the rest of us? Besides, what's legit to you may not be to me and the other way around. Why do you care so much what one person thinks is legit that doesn't affect you directly?

Why is the white gown still important?

Tradition. You are aware not every woman that gets married wears white? Are those people not 'really married' because she didn't follow what you think is proper in the ceremony?

If that were true, then Christians that uphold the reality of the immutability of what a "Christian marriage is, which is totally definable as man and woman in the New Testament, wouldn't be vilified and defined negatively.

There are other reasons we could all pick to vilify anyone. Why does what others think of you seem to be so important? You seem to be more concerned about that than anything else - why is that?

Post 451: Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:27 am 0Î” 0âˆ‡

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Wordleymaster
[Replying to post 443 by 99percentatheism]

Quote:
gay marriage celebrates and legitimizes homosexual acts.

Quote:
Only if you allow it to.

If I and a billion of other Bible affirming Christians don't, we are called homophobes, haters, intolerant, fundamentalists, EXTREMISTS and are vilified by secular and non and anti Christian forces. And of course liberal/progressive religious activists. It looks like tolerance must be demanded.

Quote:
Gay marriage is simply the legal union of two people in a way that culture identifies.

To say that marriage is not about legitimizing sexual behavior is not in keeping with reality. Why is the white gown still important? Um, for a woman.

Quote:
It doesn't involve you, your soul or your eternity and as such, isn't any of your business (assuming you aren't the one getting married that is).

If that were true, then Christians that uphold the reality of the immutability of what a "Christian marriage is, which is totally definable as man and woman in the New Testament, wouldn't be vilified and defined negatively. They would be defined as Christians doing the right thing as Christians should.

Quote:
If a person thinks that 'sexual acts' hetero- or homo- is all marriage is about has no understanding of what a marriage actually is. Which is sad really.

Do you think Jesus is an idiot?

He might have been. I didn't know him. Neither did you. You only know what others wrote about him. Besides, your question is invalid in this discussion

His discussion that evoked this response was talking about adultery.

AGAIN, there's more to marriage than sex. It seems you don't understand that? Sex sex sex sex sex that seems all you're concerned about! Pa-leeze

People that hunt are vilified for not refusing to hunt like the animal rights legion demand.

What a GRAND assumption to make. And it's wholey wrong. I am part of animal rights and I'm NOT against hunting - I just don't like to partake in it. But again, you're concerned with how others see you. Why is that?

Reality does not seem to be agreeing with you.

Amusing

So reality is that I have to accept how YOU live YOUR life in order for ME to live MINE? That's beyond ludicrous.

Ask Soulforce and Matthew Vines.
They are indeed forcing every Christian to be pro homosexuality.

Out right lie. I know dozens of Christians and they have never even heard of these people. Why do you rreach for extremes to prove a point?

Saying a man is another man's "husband" and a woman is another woman's "wife" is far more like saying a turtle is a frog.

In as much as it's none of your business, no it's not - it's exactly the same thing. You seem to be concerned with how others see you and labels - why is that?

In Christian truth, neither exist.

Not everyone agrees, or even cares, about that. When were you appointed the translator of christianity and what it means anyway? I must have overlooked that memo

And you response goes on and on and on and on

Here're the general points to take away:
Don't worry about what others think of you
Have your own opinion
Don't think you speak for an entire religion or group of people
If you're not gay, being gay has no real effect on you UNLESS you allow it
IF you allow it, you have other problems you need to deal with before taking on others
Those who don't accept them will become fringe groups like WBBC
But the main point:
Like so many other things Christainity has been against in the past, gays will be accepted into mainstream Christianity (though I wonder why they would want to but that's another story altogether) - it's already happening!

99percentatheism · Post by **99percentatheism** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:44 am

[Replying to Wordleymaster1]

If I were concerned with what people think about me I wouldn't be posting at a virulently hostile website. But your tactic is noted. I have, of course, seen it trotted out before. I don't scare easily. It has always fascinated me that so much of my Biblical evidence is simply ignored by so many and the personal ploy implemented to keep reality ignored.

This whole issue has been in The Church since its founding. And, rooted out time and again. A calendar does not alter nor redefine Christian truth:

Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to Godâ€™s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwellingâ€”these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, â€œThe Lord rebuke you!â€� Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinctâ€”as irrational animals doâ€”will destroy them.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaamâ€™s error; they have been destroyed in Korahâ€™s rebellion.

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualmâ€”shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprootedâ€”twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: â€œSee, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.â€� These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, â€œIn the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.â€� These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in Godâ€™s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy,

mixed with fear

â€”hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joyâ€” to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Wordleymaster1 · Post by **Wordleymaster1** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:58 am

[Replying to post 454 by 99percentatheism]

If I were concerned with what people think about me I wouldn't be posting at a virulently hostile website.

Your statements say otherwise. And this place isn't hostile at all - it's quite mundane. Even boring sometimes. It should be MORE hostile

But your tactic is noted. I have, of course, seen it trotted out before.

What tactic is that? It's none of your business if Christianity accepts gays or not. If you don't want to, you don't have to. I'm sure you don't agree with everything every Christian group believes right?

I don't scare easily.

I don't care - but who is trying to scare you?

It has always fascinated me that so much of my Biblical evidence is simply ignored by so many and the personal ploy implemented to keep reality ignored.

It happens - that's people for ya' It's been happening since the beginning. It's not all that suprising really

Being gay is none of your business if you're not gay.
It's that simple.
You can continue to complain about it and work yourself up into another ulcer, but it's pointless. Christianity changes as society does - even across current cultures at the same time.

That's to be expected of a religioin created by people

99percentatheism · Post by **99percentatheism** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:11 pm

Wordleymaster1
[Replying to post 454 by 99percentatheism]

If I were concerned with what people think about me I wouldn't be posting at a virulently hostile website.

Your statements say otherwise. And this place isn't hostile at all - it's quite mundane. Even boring sometimes. It should be MORE hostile

Wow, a call for full scale persecution? How honest.

But your tactic is noted. I have, of course, seen it trotted out before.

What tactic is that? It's none of your business if Christianity accepts gays or not.

I'm a Christian. A mainstream kind. It is absolutely my business. It's not about "accepting gays," it's about celebrating homosexuality. Which will never happen.

If you don't want to, you don't have to. I'm sure you don't agree with everything every Christian group believes right?

I don't agree with the gay ones. Neither does the New Testament.

I don't scare easily.

I don't care - but who is trying to scare you?

They can't. So it's not important.

It has always fascinated me that so much of my Biblical evidence is simply ignored by so many and the personal ploy implemented to keep reality ignored.

It happens - that's people for ya' It's been happening since the beginning. It's not all that suprising really.

Oh, it doesn't surprise me. For the Bible tells me so.

Being gay is none of your business if you're not gay.
It's that simple.

Obviously reality says otherwise.

You can continue to complain about it and work yourself up into another ulcer, but it's pointless.

I will never have an ulcer and I will always complain about heresy.

Christianity changes as society does - even across current cultures at the same time.

Not for the good when it becomes just like the secular world and its ways.

That's to be expected of a religioin created by people

Without doubt. The part created by people. That is why gay theology does not pass the test of testing.