Gay life vs. "homosexual" "acts"

[Haven]

Many anti-gay fundamentalist Christians oppose equal rights for the lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) community on the basis that sexual acts between members of the same sex are immoral according to Christian scripture and teaching. These individuals often equate queer identities with those sexual acts, and use that connection to argue in favor of denying LGB people equal protection under the law.

While I dispute that the Bible condemns same-sex sex, for the sake of this discussion I will accept the premise that they is wrong under Christianity.

That aside, homosexuality, and, more broadly, gay life, is so much more than what we do in the bedroom. One's sexuality impacts her/his relationships (obviously), social activities, choice of friends, civil rights, (and often) appearance, voice, and other external characteristics. These have nothing to do with sexual acts, but are all part of gay (and straight!) experiences.

Debate question: Is gay life all about "homosexual" "acts?" Is there more to the LGB experience than sex? Should LGB people have fewer rights because some conservative Christians don't like gay sex?

[99percentatheism]

KCKID
[font=Arial]

KCKID

Well, I'm homosexual and often am left with similar questions. When i hear someone rant about how the sex act is evil/immoral/weird/disgusting, i'm just really confused because it seems like massive overreaction.

It appears to be mainly men (males) that react in such a manner toward homosexuality. Far fewer females appear to react similarly. What does this tell us?

You must not talk to very many women. Many are repulsed by same gender behavior their style. And all of the women I interact with in the Evangelcal Churches I visit throughout America stand as one towards homosexuality their style . . . as in against it. And especially for their children. And remember women are not men.

Ah, at last . . .an admission that it's "people" who are personally repulsed by homosexuality and not because God allegedly commands against it! I've known that pretty well forever, of course. God is against the very same things that one is personally against! What many are taught about God from the Bible (yes, taught! Many rarely study the Bible for themselves!) only supports what they 'personally' feel about homosexuality. And, what one personally feels is also more often than not 'culture driven'.

Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

- Jude 1

A particular strand of my university degree (yep, I have a uni degree in Social Science ...I am so clever! ) included Anthropology 101. The lifestyles and the customs of a number of tribal people throughout the world would go against the grain of most of us 'decent' people. The Sambian Tribe, for instance, have a practice of 'masculinization' for the boys in their tribe (man and boy sex among other tribal rites of passage) that would have every child protection agency in the Western World beating down their doors to remove these children from their homes. Psychologists/Psychiatrists would be even more in demand (*sigh*) than they are now with some prolonged and heavy counseling programs for these 'poor kids' that have clearly been 'scarred for life'. You can read all about the Sambians here:

http://www.orijinculture.com/community/ ... ua-guinea/

See, we're all influenced by our specific cultures and we generally adhere to the 'norms' of our particular society. What 'behavioral norms' of society are for some is 'deviant behavior' for others. What the Sambians do is obviously not for us.

Are you adding the Sambians to the LGBTQQ+ culture and community? And how could you not if the Sambians demanded it?

Likewise, what we do would just as obviously not be for the Sambians.

How hateful. How Sambiaphobic.

Actually, I find the eating practices of some cultures to be most off-putting. The people of India, for instance, don't use utensils to eat their food with ...they just use their fingers. How gross!

Utensilaphobia? Should I consider your view as utensilaphobic?

Perhaps I could find an appropriate passage of scripture that aligns with my own distaste for this disgusting practice and pronounce that God agrees with me!

I believe Peter and Paul already covered that.

Different cultures, different 'norms' ...God agrees with 'me', God disagrees with 'you'. Get the point?

Neologism extremist fundamentalism. I get the point.

Well, it suggests that it's a cultural thing and begins pretty much from birth. We all know of the poor kid who was taunted at school for being a 'sissy'. Sissy (derived from sister) is a pejorative term for a boy or man who violates or does not meet the standard male gender role.

Have you spent any time in the gay community?

No, I haven’t. But I have spent all of my life in the straight community. And, I've observed over the years that it’s not all been lollipops and roses.

What was your point?

Honesty. Accuracy. Reality. The gay pride flag flies as proudly over gay bars as it does anywhere else. I've seen that with my own eyes. I've seen the gay community and gay culture as a matter living there. That is the opposite of ignorance and bigotry. Like your Sambian example, if you would have actually lived in that community and knew what they do as a matter of empiricism.

There's a huge difference between a phobia and a real concern based on reality. Parents worry intensely now about their children just walking home from school. 40-years ago, a child walking home from school was not even a blip on the worry meter. Xenophobia? Hardly. Not anymore.

Throughout their lives many men - perhaps subconsciously - are playing a game of 'one-upmanship' with other males with regard to their sexual prowess. While perhaps a tad crass, the brains of many males do appear to be located in their crotch area ...for both gays as well as straights, I quickly add!

Christians know this.

I'm sure they do.

Keep on that path.

For a male to be attracted to another male is contrary to the culture of 'boy/manhood'. It breaks 'the rules', so to speak, since not only is it considered to be the height of masculinity for a male to show courage, endurance, and the ability to control one’s emotions, to 'bed a female' is also a male rite of passage, especially when one is in their youth.

Not in any Christian family I know of. You are referencing "the world and its ways."

The naïvety you’re displaying is kinda cute.

Fluffy Puppy cute?

But, perhaps for the most part, you’re right. Christian kids would possibly have the ‘guilt trip’ that much of ‘religiosity’ is about drummed into them from day one by their parents.

Everyone is guilty of being a sinner. Why lie about that? Good Christian parents teach their children well. Honesty is not hate speech in a Christian home.

Apparently many of these kids rebel later in life. Be that as it may, I was referring to the ‘culture’ of maleness’ in general.

The Prodigal. We know this reality well. Most of us lived it. And as you know, all of my posts are dealing with the world and its ways culture and Christian truth.

And, the more females he beds, the more notches on his, um, gun. It should be noted that there is also a lot of lying and "b/s-ing" that goes on within the male youth culture (so, too, with many adult males) re their alleged sexual exploitations! The point is, however, that to many males their sexual prowess is of utmost importance relative to their perceived 'manhood'. While this situation is gradually changing among the young people of today, they are still under a certain amount of influence from their older generation parents and society.

KCKID, are you spending anytime at all with young people today? Social media hasn't changed a thing.

What …in regard to their (young peoples’) attitude toward homosexuality? It seems to me from the dealings that I presently have and have had with young people that homosexuality for them is no big deal. Obviously, the young people involved with the Church may have a different viewpoint. Like it or not, ‘Christianity’ uses a brainwashing technique just the same as does the media, politics, and all that we absorb from those who we consider to be more knowledgeable than we ourselves are.

Fluffy Puppy brainwashing?

Not hardly.

Pot meet rainbow colored Kettle.

There is more to all of this than meets the eye.

Needless to say, there is a great deal on the Internet with regard to 'maleness' and 'cultural aversion' by males toward homosexuality from both a psychological and a sociological perspective.

Isn't it interesting that the internet is literally the knowledge of good and evil? It kills as well as heals.

While that may well be true, could a similar reference not be made with regard to the book that some Christians tend to let do their thinking for them?

"Tend" to let it do their thinking? Have you studied history? It is what Christians have done and are doing throughout history that finally got me to think that there is reality to the freedom that Christian life brings to their life. I see no mindless lemmings in the Gospel or The Church universal. I do though in the world and its ways.

The Old Testament is downright evil for the most part.

Says who? Are you claiming to be the Judge of all the universe? Think about your pronouncement. YOU have just elevated yourself to god.

Then comes along Jesus to somehow counter the OT with a very different message.

Where? When? How? Jesus makes it clear that He is in total control of the Universe.

The OT seems to be all about killing whereas Jesus appears to be all about healing.

Oh really? How many people were "healed" by Jesus?

This is perhaps a slight derail but which of the two do YOU claim to be a follower of, 99percent ...God or Jesus? There IS a difference . . .

No there isn't. I am a Christian.

To be cont'd

OK

[Haven]

A particular strand of my university degree (yep, I have a uni degree in Social Science ...I am so clever! ) included Anthropology 101. The lifestyles and the customs of a number of tribal people throughout the world would go against the grain of most of us 'decent' people. The Sambian Tribe, for instance, have a practice of 'masculinization' for the boys in their tribe (man and boy sex among other tribal rites of passage) that would have every child protection agency in the Western World beating down their doors to remove these children from their homes. Psychologists/Psychiatrists would be even more in demand (*sigh*) than they are now with some prolonged and heavy counseling programs for these 'poor kids' that have clearly been 'scarred for life'.

Are you adding the Sambians to the LGBTQQ+ culture and community? And how could you not if the Sambians demanded it?

How hateful. How Sambiaphobic.

For once, I'm with 99. What the Sambians do (or traditionally did) is child molestation, and that is absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable under any circumstances. I'm appalled that such a practice would be equated to any relationship between consenting adults.

There is NO justification or excuse for rape or child molestation. None.

[KCKID]

A particular strand of my university degree (yep, I have a uni degree in Social Science ...I am so clever! ) included Anthropology 101. The lifestyles and the customs of a number of tribal people throughout the world would go against the grain of most of us 'decent' people. The Sambian Tribe, for instance, have a practice of 'masculinization' for the boys in their tribe (man and boy sex among other tribal rites of passage) that would have every child protection agency in the Western World beating down their doors to remove these children from their homes. Psychologists/Psychiatrists would be even more in demand (*sigh*) than they are now with some prolonged and heavy counseling programs for these 'poor kids' that have clearly been 'scarred for life'.

Are you adding the Sambians to the LGBTQQ+ culture and community? And how could you not if the Sambians demanded it?

How hateful. How Sambiaphobic.

For once, I'm with 99. What the Sambians do (or traditionally did) is child molestation, and that is absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable under any circumstances. I'm appalled that such a practice would be equated to any relationship between consenting adults.

There is NO justification or excuse for rape or child molestation. None.

The Sambians don't/didn't see this as child molestation and it would appear that the boys, when they become men, don't appear to be any worse the wear for this practice. My point (that I thought was clearly made) was not to promote this kind of stuff or equate it to homosexuality or to consenting adults but to give an example (though extreme) of different cultures that have different 'norms'. What you appear to be doing is imposing your own particular moral norms on the Sambian people and that doesn't work.

That said, don't let us have a fall-out over this, Haven. I'm not responsible for what others cultures do. I'm just reporting this from an anthropological perspective.

[KCKID]

(Response to post 17 from 99percentatheism cont'd)

KCKID

When someone concedes that people are likely born gay but then finish with "but the sex act is still a choice of course", it's like they're desperately clinging to a way to condemn homosexuality still.

Christians deal with human beings. We are not concerned with the animal kingdom. Choice behavior is what separates us from them.

Yes, it's most patronizing even if not intended. Again, it comes back to both cultural influence and (if Christian) the influence of their Christian peers who are in turn influenced by the teaching of yet others that the Bible condemns homosexuality.

The Bible "condemns" many sinful behaviors.

Yes. And as long as we remain human we will all continue to participate in 'sinful behavior' for as long as we live. The Bible pretty much condemns 'being human'. Why so many Christians continue to make judgment on others for committing the very same sins that 'they' commit defies logic.

Same gender sexual behavior is just e pluribus unum. Does one have a kleptomania orientation as an excuse for stealing? That is is the DSM V as well. But in Christian life, stealing is a sin. No matter if one is born that way.

Humans are heterosexual. Humans are also homosexual. Neither are 'sins'.

The biggest 'problem' that gay people might encounter is the closed mindedness of some Christians who can never warm to the suggestion - even when using their own scriptures as evidence - that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality per se any more than it condemns heterosexuality per se.

The BIGGEST problem for gay activists is that there is no such thing as affirmation, support or celebration of homosexuality OR homosexuals anywhere in the Bible. It is only honesty to keep to the truth.

The Bible authors didn't know what a homosexual is/was. Let's keep this thing in perspective.

Even if the Bible authors did frown on homosexuality, then are we of today really bound by the writings of these ancient men who had no prior concept of the many, many advances that have been made in the fields of technology, medicine, etc. since those times?

Look up "onanism." Those ancients proved they knew exactly what sexuality was.

Yes, I do. It's yet another ancient tale from the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis, Onan, son of Judah, in fulfillment of the laws of levirate marriage was to impregnate his brother Er's widow, Tamar, in order to raise offspring from the union in his brother's name. In order to avoid raising descendants for his late brother, however, Onan spilled his semen on the ground when he went in to his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. (Genesis 38:9). Thus the word Onanism was coined, meaning ejaculating outside the vagina, or masturbation (because this also spills semen, rather than using it for procreation).

SO, would not the above account pertaining to 'wasted seed' forbid the use of birth control methods and also (gasp) recreational sex? Wouldn't this be classed as "onanism"? If so, doesn't this, then, place 'the condemning finger of God' on millions of present-day Christians?

Since God was inspiring them to write,

Proof ...please!

we have a good source of sexual knowledge. And yet, there is not one place anywhere in scripture that decidedly encourages homosexuality. Yet we have only its denouncing.

We're told that God is a jealous God. Only HE is to be worshiped. Not Baal, not Mithra, not Cybele. Not ANY false god! Any practices associated with these idols is to be condemned most severely. Need I say more ...?

Do we really look to these authors for advice and guidance with regard to human sexuality? Surely, the answer has to be a resounding, “No!"

For non and anti Christians. You left that part out. For "Christians" the Bible is important. For "conservative" Christians.

The Bible really does appear to be 'your God'. Remember the first & second commands of the Big Ten about graven images and man-made objects? Why would one need to be so reliant on a book to guide them spiritually and morally anyway? I don't need an instruction manual to tell me what is right and what is wrong. Anyway, isn't the accepting of Jesus a 'heart' thing?

Liberal Christians generally reject the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible.

- http://www.religioustolerance.org/

Yes, technically homosexual acts are a choice. So I should go thru life alone and suppress my feelings forever, and not so much as jerk off either?

That is your choice.

Yes, and not yours to make for him. OR to condemn him for whichever way he chooses.

Well, probably all but the most conservative Christians might excuse the latter (since they do it too) but they might also use a more politely appropriate term for it!

Probably not.

How many heteros never partake in premarital/extramarital sex or use birth control? The hypocrisy is staggering.

The always grabbed onto "two wrongs making a right analogy. Odd how that only continues things going in the "wrong" direction.

Of course it's hypocritical. And it's because it's hypocritical (and blatantly double standard) that we use logic and reason to dismiss these types of criticism.

There is no logic or reason in: The always grabbed onto "two wrongs making a right analogy. Odd how that only continues things going in the "wrong" direction. No morality in ti as well.

I fail to see the big deal either. The sex act is so minor. Whether i act on those attractions, i like being gay because as you say, there's a lot more to it than that. I love guys and love being open about it. It feels amazing.

Men desiring to be around men because it is an amazing feeling is not a sin. Sex acts between men are though. To Christian truth that is. I may add quickly. And last time I checked, male on male sex acts were very complicated. One can't do it without some help from a slippery product or two.

Not that I would know personally but ...is it that difficult?

I say, "Good for you." Others might say, "Now go to your room and DON'T come out (no pun intended) until you figure out how you're hurting God!!"

Encouraging sin is an even worse sin than just committing one.

I was not encouraging 'sin'. The 'good for you' I gave was nothing to do with sexual behavior but in the poster being proud and open to who he is. He didn't even say that he was sexually active, not that it's my business - or yours - even if he is.

According to none other than Jesus: One day Jesus said to his disciples,

“There will always be temptations to sin, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting! It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin. So watch yourselves!
- Luke 17

Again, I don't (and didn't) encourage anyone to 'sin'. I only try to encourage people to be themselves.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID
(Response to post 17 from 99percentatheism cont'd)

KCKID

When someone concedes that people are likely born gay but then finish with "but the sex act is still a choice of course", it's like they're desperately clinging to a way to condemn homosexuality still.

Christians deal with human beings. We are not concerned with the animal kingdom. Choice behavior is what separates us from them.

Yes, it's most patronizing even if not intended. Again, it comes back to both cultural influence and (if Christian) the influence of their Christian peers who are in turn influenced by the teaching of yet others that the Bible condemns homosexuality.

The Bible "condemns" many sinful behaviors.

Yes. And as long as we remain human we will all continue to participate in 'sinful behavior' for as long as we live.

I'm thinking there are many groups and individuals that do not sin because they do not believe the Biblical perspective. Do I really need to list all of the definitions?

The Bible pretty much condemns 'being human'. Why so many Christians continue to make judgment on others for committing the very same sins that 'they' commit defies logic.

Psalm 51 may be a good place to start for you to start understanding repentance and forgiveness. But the again . . .

Same gender sexual behavior is just e pluribus unum. Does one have a kleptomania orientation as an excuse for stealing? That is is the DSM V as well. But in Christian life, stealing is a sin. No matter if one is born that way.

Humans are heterosexual. Humans are also homosexual. Neither are 'sins'.

People are people. Behaviors are behaviors. Sins are sins. Labels don't change that reality. As you point out so well with your finger towards adulterers, the divorced and the remarried. Yet, you want to follow sins with affirming even more sins. It's an odd theology you espouse but hey, you are entitled to it. And I am used to the justification tactics of the gay agenda. Breaks down very simple. Bad fruit bears bad fruit. From adultery, divorce and remarriage "within the Church" comes the gay pride movement moving in? Sure looks that way they way you proclaim it.

The biggest 'problem' that gay people might encounter is the closed mindedness of some Christians who can never warm to the suggestion - even when using their own scriptures as evidence - that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality per se any more than it condemns heterosexuality per se.

The BIGGEST problem for gay activists is that there is no such thing as affirmation, support or celebration of homosexuality OR homosexuals anywhere in the Bible. It is only honesty to keep to the truth.

The Bible authors didn't know what a homosexual is/was. Let's keep this thing in perspective.

Even if the Bible authors did frown on homosexuality, then are we of today really bound by the writings of these ancient men who had no prior concept of the many, many advances that have been made in the fields of technology, medicine, etc. since those times?

Look up "onanism." Those ancients proved they knew exactly what sexuality was.

Yes, I do.

You mean you looked it up?

It's yet another ancient tale from the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis, Onan, son of Judah, in fulfillment of the laws of levirate marriage was to impregnate his brother Er's widow, Tamar, in order to raise offspring from the union in his brother's name. In order to avoid raising descendants for his late brother, however, Onan spilled his semen on the ground when he went in to his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. (Genesis 38:9). Thus the word Onanism was coined, meaning ejaculating outside the vagina, or masturbation (because this also spills semen, rather than using it for procreation).

SO, would not the above account pertaining to 'wasted seed' forbid the use of birth control methods and also (gasp) recreational sex? Wouldn't this be classed as "onanism"? If so, doesn't this, then, place 'the condemning finger of God' on millions of present-day Christians?

All that stands against your charge that the biblical story is an ancient rag that doesn't know what's up in this modern world. Onan's embarrassing story shatters your assertion.

Since God was inspiring them to write,

Proof ...please!

I should have used italics. Oops. I was writing in sarcasm as the typical charge against the anti-Christian propaganda that so often-times finds its way in the judgmental finger-pointing of our adversaries. But I have never known a Christian that didn't hold that God inspired the writers. As we will see you assertion below, sometimes God did it himself.

we have a good source of sexual knowledge. And yet, there is not one place anywhere in scripture that decidedly encourages homosexuality. Yet we have only its denouncing.

We're told that God is a jealous God. Only HE is to be worshiped. Not Baal, not Mithra, not Cybele. Not ANY false god! Any practices associated with these idols is to be condemned most severely. Need I say more ...?

You ARE referencing the Ten Commandments. Written by God in stone. Unless you think Moses had a chisel with him up on the mountain.

Do we really look to these authors for advice and guidance with regard to human sexuality? Surely, the answer has to be a resounding, “No!"

For non and anti Christians. You left that part out. For "Christians" the Bible is important. For "conservative" Christians.

The Bible really does appear to be 'your God'. Remember the first & second commands of the Big Ten about graven images and man-made objects? Why would one need to be so reliant on a book to guide them spiritually and morally anyway? I don't need an instruction manual to tell me what is right and what is wrong. Anyway, isn't the accepting of Jesus a 'heart' thing?

Remember what?

Remember the first & second commands of the Big Ten about graven images and man-made objects?

Written BY God? Those two of the "Big Ten?"

How do you suppose the gay pride flag is made? What does it represent? Who does it call to devotion, dedication, belief and action?

Liberal Christians generally reject the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible.

- http://www.religioustolerance.org/

Yes, technically homosexual acts are a choice. So I should go thru life alone and suppress my feelings forever, and not so much as jerk off either?

That is your choice.

Yes, and not yours to make for him. OR to condemn him for whichever way he chooses.

KCKID, you are free to invent any religious viewpoint you're heart desires. We Christians are not. There is no place in the New Testament that teaches that we are not to judge sinful behaviors and the people or groups that engage it. But many places that describe the use of judging as healthy for an honest Church. Redefining sin, sinning and sinfulness isn't in Christian reality. That is why even you know what adultery, divorce and remarriage is. Yet, weirdly, you want to insert even more sinning rather than to stand of right teaching about it.

Well, probably all but the most conservative Christians might excuse the latter (since they do it too) but they might also use a more politely appropriate term for it!

Probably not.

How many heteros never partake in premarital/extramarital sex or use birth control? The hypocrisy is staggering.

The always grabbed onto "two wrongs making a right analogy. Odd how that only continues things going in the "wrong" direction.

Of course it's hypocritical. And it's because it's hypocritical (and blatantly double standard) that we use logic and reason to dismiss these types of criticism.

Two wrongs making a right not only defies logic and reason, it violates even secular morality. Well, it used to. But it certainly defies Christian truth. Sin has only one path to it (for Christians). Repentance. Not the joining of even more sins because of it. That's what is called anti-Christian. And, I have yet to see a Sin Pride parade . . . in The Church. The Academy Awards for sure. But I don't follow the gospel according to Hollywood. Or the gospel of a "government" of any country on earth today.

There is no logic or reason in: The always grabbed onto "two wrongs making a right analogy. Odd how that only continues things going in the "wrong" direction. No morality in ti as well.

I fail to see the big deal either. The sex act is so minor. Whether i act on those attractions, i like being gay because as you say, there's a lot more to it than that. I love guys and love being open about it. It feels amazing.

Men desiring to be around men because it is an amazing feeling is not a sin. Sex acts between men are though. To Christian truth that is. I may add quickly. And last time I checked, male on male sex acts were very complicated. One can't do it without some help from a slippery product or two.

Not that I would know personally but ...is it that difficult?

Gay behavior is no secret. In fact, I believe they call it out and proud don't they? Very, very loudly in fact.

I say, "Good for you." Others might say, "Now go to your room and DON'T come out (no pun intended) until you figure out how you're hurting God!!"

Encouraging sin is an even worse sin than just committing one.

I was not encouraging 'sin'. The 'good for you' I gave was nothing to do with sexual behavior but in the poster being proud and open to who he is. He didn't even say that he was sexually active, not that it's my business - or yours - even if he is.

Your lifestyle is your lifestyle. Your morality is your morality.

Within Christian life, we are concerned with the behaviors of those that call themselves a Christian. Read the New Testament. It is a very quick read.

According to none other than Jesus: One day Jesus said to his disciples,

“There will always be temptations to sin, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting! It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin. So watch yourselves!
- Luke 17

Again, I don't (and didn't) encourage anyone to 'sin'. I only try to encourage people to be themselves.

Like I said, you are free to live that perspective openly and proudly. But if you look up the word "affirming" doesn't it indeed encourage behaviors?

[Ooberman]

A particular strand of my university degree (yep, I have a uni degree in Social Science ...I am so clever! ) included Anthropology 101. The lifestyles and the customs of a number of tribal people throughout the world would go against the grain of most of us 'decent' people. The Sambian Tribe, for instance, have a practice of 'masculinization' for the boys in their tribe (man and boy sex among other tribal rites of passage) that would have every child protection agency in the Western World beating down their doors to remove these children from their homes. Psychologists/Psychiatrists would be even more in demand (*sigh*) than they are now with some prolonged and heavy counseling programs for these 'poor kids' that have clearly been 'scarred for life'.

Are you adding the Sambians to the LGBTQQ+ culture and community? And how could you not if the Sambians demanded it?

How hateful. How Sambiaphobic.

For once, I'm with 99. What the Sambians do (or traditionally did) is child molestation, and that is absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable under any circumstances. I'm appalled that such a practice would be equated to any relationship between consenting adults.

There is NO justification or excuse for rape or child molestation. None.

The Sambians don't/didn't see this as child molestation and it would appear that the boys, when they become men, don't appear to be any worse the wear for this practice. My point (that I thought was clearly made) was not to promote this kind of stuff or equate it to homosexuality or to consenting adults but to give an example (though extreme) of different cultures that have different 'norms'. What you appear to be doing is imposing your own particular moral norms on the Sambian people and that doesn't work.

That said, don't let us have a fall-out over this, Haven. I'm not responsible for what others cultures do. I'm just reporting this from an anthropological perspective.

The practice of semen ingestion and circumcision seem identical to me, except circumcision actually mutilates the person. It's also the same as baptism - in that they are all traditions that do nothing real or important.

They are all wrong in that they provide no supernatural protection or power. They all have the same argument for their continuation: tradition.

The only real world result (cultural bonding) can be done through other means: like a family picnic or a father/son fishing trip, etc..

It's just that some sick, demented person decided fishing trips weren't enough - he needed to slice and suck, suck and swallow or dunk and pray to make the moment special. That sick, demented person apparently had enough charisma to convince the rest of his tribe to follow along.. or else.

What I am expressing here is not meant to be insulting to people who practice these things, but to show how an outsider views them as an anthropological phenomenon, and how seemingly benign practices can, from another perspective, seem grotesque (or silly), whereas the person within the culture considers it with reverence.

Semen ingestion
Circumcision
Female circumcision
Foot binding
Lip stretching
Neck Lengthening
Baptism
Forehead binding
Some forms of elective cosmetic surgery
Hazing
Polygamy
Fasting
Breaking bread
etc.


There are any number of things we elevate above the actual act, and turn it into a "spiritual" event. Circumcision isn't just slicing of the tip of the penis and sucking the blood, it's an event that is meant to bond the person to the culture. The act of cutting the penis is secondary, if important at all.

Likewise all other rituals. Rituals are, by their definition, not about the physical act, but about the mental imagery invented by the culture associated with the act.

I feel we can safely criticize actions. It's not an indictment on the intent of the ritual, simply the vehicle to achieve the intended result.

[Haven]

Honesty. Accuracy. Reality. The gay pride flag flies as proudly over gay bars as it does anywhere else. I've seen that with my own eyes. I've seen the gay community and gay culture as a matter living there.

(emphasis mine)

Odd that someone who is so vehemently anti-gay has so much supposed experience with the gay community. Typically, straight anti-gay types tend to stay far away from gay events.

There's a huge difference between a phobia and a real concern based on reality. Parents worry intensely now about their children just walking home from school. 40-years ago, a child walking home from school was not even a blip on the worry meter. Xenophobia? Hardly. Not anymore.

That fear doesn't come from the TLGB community.

Also, crimes against children have actually gone down in the past 40 years. The increased fear comes from the availability of information (24-hour news and such), not a real increase in criminal activity.

[99percentatheism]

Ooberman

A particular strand of my university degree (yep, I have a uni degree in Social Science ...I am so clever! ) included Anthropology 101. The lifestyles and the customs of a number of tribal people throughout the world would go against the grain of most of us 'decent' people. The Sambian Tribe, for instance, have a practice of 'masculinization' for the boys in their tribe (man and boy sex among other tribal rites of passage) that would have every child protection agency in the Western World beating down their doors to remove these children from their homes. Psychologists/Psychiatrists would be even more in demand (*sigh*) than they are now with some prolonged and heavy counseling programs for these 'poor kids' that have clearly been 'scarred for life'.

Are you adding the Sambians to the LGBTQQ+ culture and community? And how could you not if the Sambians demanded it?

How hateful. How Sambiaphobic.

For once, I'm with 99. What the Sambians do (or traditionally did) is child molestation, and that is absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable under any circumstances. I'm appalled that such a practice would be equated to any relationship between consenting adults.

There is NO justification or excuse for rape or child molestation. None.

The Sambians don't/didn't see this as child molestation and it would appear that the boys, when they become men, don't appear to be any worse the wear for this practice. My point (that I thought was clearly made) was not to promote this kind of stuff or equate it to homosexuality or to consenting adults but to give an example (though extreme) of different cultures that have different 'norms'. What you appear to be doing is imposing your own particular moral norms on the Sambian people and that doesn't work.

That said, don't let us have a fall-out over this, Haven. I'm not responsible for what others cultures do. I'm just reporting this from an anthropological perspective.

The practice of semen ingestion and circumcision seem identical to me, except circumcision actually mutilates the person.

Really? Are you serious?

It's also the same as baptism - in that they are all traditions that do nothing real or important.

Ritual cleansing is what "baptism" actually is. It's clear that it is an outward sign or expression, of an inward change.

They are all wrong in that they provide no supernatural protection or power. They all have the same argument for their continuation: tradition.

Semen ingestion is wrong. Circumcision is one heckuva dedication to the "I hope Abraham was right" sentiment. But Abraham is Abraham by a supernatural expression. Baptism is a ritual that makes a personal declaration of a choice and/or mission in one's life. And yeah, that could be aligning with the supernatural.

The only real world result (cultural bonding) can be done through other means: like a family picnic or a father/son fishing trip, etc..

Thus sayeth who?

It's just that some sick, demented person decided fishing trips weren't enough - he needed to slice and suck, suck and swallow or dunk and pray to make the moment special. That sick, demented person apparently had enough charisma to convince the rest of his tribe to follow along.. or else.

All that rules violation from a guy on probation? Dude, you skydive with no reserve chute too?

What I am expressing here is not meant to be insulting to people who practice these things,

Bzzzz. Too late. You timed out for the edit button. But you recovered well here:

. . . but to show how an outsider views them as an anthropological phenomenon, and how seemingly benign practices can, from another perspective, seem grotesque (or silly), whereas the person within the culture considers it with reverence.

Oh that the LGBT (and all the other added on letters) would have such perspective as yours.

Semen ingestion
Circumcision
Female circumcision
Foot binding
Lip stretching
Neck Lengthening
Baptism
Forehead binding
Some forms of elective cosmetic surgery
Hazing
Polygamy
Fasting
Breaking bread
etc.

Hmm, odd comparison chart. Unsettling really.

There are any number of things we elevate above the actual act, and turn it into a "spiritual" event.

Yes, idolatry can come in many colors.

Circumcision isn't just slicing of the tip of the penis and sucking the blood, it's an event that is meant to bond the person to the culture. The act of cutting the penis is secondary, if important at all.

Cutting off the "tip" of the penis? Circumcision?

Circumcision is the surgical removal of the skin covering the tip of the penis.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedu ... c-20013585

Likewise all other rituals. Rituals are, by their definition, not about the physical act, but about the mental imagery invented by the culture associated with the act.

Nah, I gotta disagree with you there. Circumcision even in the ancient desert dwelling days . . . was about faith in the God of Abraham. Talk about a statement of faith!

I feel we can safely criticize actions. It's not an indictment on the intent of the ritual, simply the vehicle to achieve the intended result.

I feel vindicated from all the charges made against me for not being "gay affirming."

And from a fellow prisoner in chains.

[KCKID]

I feel vindicated from all the charges made against me for not being "gay affirming."

I just had to grab this one. I don't think that anyone has made charges against you personally, 99percent ...charges made against your method of delivery of your 'anti-gay' sentiments, yes, but not charges made against you personally. And yet, come to think of it, there could have been a little 'spill-over' at times that is hard to avoid . . .

[99percentatheism]

Haven

Honesty. Accuracy. Reality. The gay pride flag flies as proudly over gay bars as it does anywhere else. I've seen that with my own eyes. I've seen the gay community and gay culture as a matter living there.

(emphasis mine)

Odd that someone who is so vehemently anti-gay has so much supposed experience with the gay community.

Why is it odd? It's not my fault that homosexuals have a community and culture. I chose a nice looking apartment in West Hollywood before I even knew I was living in a gay community. It wasn't long after that I knew I was.

Typically, straight anti-gay types tend to stay far away from gay events.

"Straight, anti-gay types." You can't seem to stay away from propaganda. I am a Christian. I choose to live like one. As often as I can. It is also not my fault that gay culture is antithetical to a Christian life. Marriage is man and woman/husband and wife in the New Testament. Maybe you should be looking for "anti's" where they exist. As in anti-Christians.

There's a huge difference between a phobia and a real concern based on reality. Parents worry intensely now about their children just walking home from school. 40-years ago, a child walking home from school was not even a blip on the worry meter. Xenophobia? Hardly. Not anymore.

That fear doesn't come from the TLGB community.

You left out the other letters didn't you? And there is great fear in the gay community for walking around at night, taking a drink with someone you don't know well, etc., etc,. Remember, I used to live there. I have had to pick up the pieces of the ruined lives of several friends that made some bad choices. I moved away from that community for very serious reasons.

Also, crimes against children have actually gone down in the past 40 years. The increased fear comes from the availability of information (24-hour news and such), not a real increase in criminal activity.

Yes, the Evangelical community (Church) is having a good effect on many neighborhoods. Some neighborhoods, not all of course. For example, look at how many people want to mimic a Christian marriage. How many city dwellers are leaving the city for the-Church-on-almost-every-street-corner suburbs?