THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

[KCKID]

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.� I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality. I mean, if Christians REALLY desire to condemn ‘sin’ as they perceive it they could give homosexuals a break and instead have a field day targeting the many other human behaviors going on within society that God appears to hate. But …they don’t . . .well certainly not with the same zeal they do toward homosexuality.

So, what is going on here? Does the Bible really condemn sexual relations between consenting adults of the same gender? Or, does the Bible not address the matter of homosexuality at all …or, at least, not as we today recognize homosexuality? Would the Bible authors have even been aware of one’s innate sexuality as well as the complexities surrounding sexuality in general? Or, in simple terms, would they, as with many males of today, have regarded some males as 'effeminate' (or ‘sissies’) based on both ignorance and their own perceived cultural image of the ‘alpha male’? Or, if these authors were considered to be writing by divine authority, might we then say that God is the instigator of such ignorance and has allowed this ignorance to persist from generation to generation?

My main question in this thread is: of the ‘thimble-full’ of scriptures that are commonly used by Christians to condemn homosexuality (sexual attraction/desire directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex), how many of these texts might be considered to be far too ambiguous (open to several possible meanings or interpretations) to have caused such a furor within Christendom in general and specifically resulted in the division of a number of present-day Christian denominations? Can these few scriptures be analyzed so accurately that they can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to condemn homosexuality as we refer to the term today? I say no …they cannot. I’ve given my reasons in the past and will do so again if challenged.

Please discuss the below scriptures, as best you can, exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?
interpretation: what do the passages mean?
correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?
application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

Note: I've purposely used the NIV for the following texts.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)

Should there be other related Bible texts to the topic feel free to present them based on the above criteria for analysis. I purposely omitted the Sodom and Gomorrah saga since it's been done to death and quite clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. However, likewise feel free to present that strange tale for discussion should you find it to be relevant.

[KCKID]

Further to - but not to detract from - the above thread starter are the following quotes from the homosexual documentary, "for the BIBLE tells me so". While the doco is 1:38:40 in length it's a very valuable watch for those that genuinely desire Christian, Bible as well as social insight into this topic. The link is:


“I can’t for the life of me imagine that God would say, ‘I will punish you because you are black …you should have been white; I will punish you because you are a woman …you should have been a man; I punish you because you are a homosexual …you ought to have been heterosexual …� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“The Bible is the inerrant word of God.� Pat Robertson

“This country is doing everything it can to make everyone believe it’s okay to be gay …and, quite frankly, it’s not …that’s why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.� Westboro Baptist Church “God Hates Fags� sign holder

“Marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots.� George W. Bush

“God says in the Old and the New Testament that it (homosexuality) is an abomination.� Anita Bryant

“Homosexuality is a sin because the Bible sez so.� Jerry Falwell

“I’ve never seen a man in my life that I wanted to marry (laughter from speaker and his congregation). If one ever looks at me like that I’m gonna kill him and tell God that he died (more laughter from speaker and his congregation)!� Jimmy Swaggart

“They’ve heard it so much (speaking of Christians) that, like Goebbels said, working for Hitler, you tell a lie enough times the whole world will believe it.� Reverend Dr. Mel White

“They (homosexuals) are destroying the moral fiber of this nation.� Pat Robertson

“Homosexuality is a preventable disorder …the truth of the matter is there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of people who have come out of homosexuality.� Dr. James Dobson, Focus On The family

“The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong …read it …find it …it’s in there …I’m sure it’s in there more than one time …it’s prob’ly in there twenty times …but it’s in there!� Westboro Baptist Church “God Hates Fags� sign holder

“God calls it an aBOMnation! It’s an aBOMnation! It’s an aBOMnation! Jimmy Swaggart

“There’s nothing wrong with a 5th-Grade understanding of God …as long as you’re in the 5th-Grade.� Reverend Dr. Laurence C. Keene

“You have to THINK when you read the Bible which is why, before the Reformation, perhaps the Roman Catholics were right saying ordinary people shouldn’t be reading the Bible because usually they get it wrong …and, I’m convinced, that usually we do.� Reverend Peter Gomes

“We have been conditioned to hold these beliefs by the Church – and it really has been the Church that is the place where the prejudice was born and was nurtured and has been promoted.� Reverend Jimmy Creech, Faith in America

“The word of God that we hold in our hands today …this is the truth in print.� Minister to his congregation

“And now, to God’s wonderful word …I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God’s holy word …� Christian allegiance speech given by minister for children to repeat

“Biblical literalists are people who know the truth absolutely …and so they’re not able to engage in a conversation …they’re only able to engage in a pronouncement.� Right Reverend Richard Holloway, Bishop of Edinburgh (Ret.)

“For a long time the Bible has been misused to support prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, the second-class citizenship of women …now it’s being used …misused … to condemn gay people. It’s an old trick that Fundamentalist Christians have been using throughout the ages …and now, they’re doing it again.� The Reverend Dr. Mel White

“Leviticus 18! It’s a sin for a man to be with another man!� Man, holding “Homosexuality is an abomination!� placard, yelling at passers by

“The Bible condemns homosexuality. Throughout the centuries Church men have called it ‘unnatural’, ‘unmanly’ …’ungodly’ . . .� Program Voiceover

“The sin with which we should be concerned is not homosexuality, because I don’t believe that that IS a sin …the sin, however, is homophobia, the fear and loathing of homosexuality, that IS a sin, and it’s a more egregious sin because it’s often in the name of scripture by religious people.� Reverend Peter Gomes

“We have very perversely used “difference� to justify the cruelty of the most vicious sort …I equate homophobia to the injustice of apartheid …and that’s SO contrary to the heart of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There were two things that I remember (from the Bible) that were abominations …homosexuality and suicide and I’ll never forget thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh, you can never commit suicide because you’re gonna go to hell, but you can never be gay because you’re gonna go to hell.’� Chrissy Gephardt (lesbian daughter of former Democrat Politian, Dick Gephardt)

“I was asked once which book I would choose if I were shipwrecked on an island and could have only one book for the rest of my life. I replied that I knew of only one book that could be read and reread and continue to be a challenge …the Bible.�Ronald Reagan

“The Bible is the word of God through the words of human beings speaking in the idiom of their time …and the richness of the Bible comes from the fact that we don’t take it as literally so, (as if) it were dictated by God.� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There are about six or seven verses in all of scripture that speak to, even remotely, what we might call homosexual activity or homosexual conduct.� Reverend Peter Gomes

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.�

It is an abomination, not just a sin. It is behavior that exists outside of the worldview and life described for people that follow the God of Abraham. There is no compatibility with same gender sex acts and what is supposed to be acceptable sexuality for a man and woman/husband and wife. Choosing to engage in homosexuality is a choice that has consequences.

I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality.

Too bad. If you do not want to consider the religious choices of others than you are daringly close to persecution of the faithful. There is no such thing as positive homosexuality anywhere in the Bible.

And in any event, if this is a personal issue for you, which you just define that it is . . . invent your own religion or find solace in organizations that celebrate and encourage people to engage in homosexuality and allow others the right to reject your new religious demands.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

“ . . . like Goebbels said, working for Hitler,

you tell a lie enough times the [

u]whole world will believe it.�[/u]

- Reverend Dr. Mel White

Further to - but not to detract from - the above thread starter are the following quotes from the homosexual documentary, "for the BIBLE tells me so".

“I can’t for the life of me imagine that God would say, ‘I will punish you because you are black …you should have been white; I will punish you because you are a woman …you should have been a man; I punish you because you are a homosexual …you ought to have been heterosexual …� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There’s nothing wrong with a 5th-Grade understanding of God …as long as you’re in the 5th-Grade.� Reverend Dr. Laurence C. Keene

“You have to THINK when you read the Bible which is why, before the Reformation, perhaps the Roman Catholics were right saying ordinary people shouldn’t be reading the Bible because usually they get it wrong …and, I’m convinced, that usually we do.� Reverend Peter Gomes

“We have been conditioned to hold these beliefs by the Church – and it really has been the Church that is the place where the prejudice was born and was nurtured and has been promoted.� - Reverend Jimmy Creech, Faith in America


“Biblical literalists are people who know the truth absolutely …and so they’re not able to engage in a conversation …they’re only able to engage in a pronouncement.� - Right Reverend Richard Holloway, Bishop of Edinburgh (Ret.)

“For a long time the Bible has been misused to support prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, the second-class citizenship of women …now it’s being used …misused … to condemn gay people. It’s an old trick that Fundamentalist Christians have been using throughout the ages …and now, they’re doing it again.� - The Reverend Dr. Mel White


“The sin with which we should be concerned is not homosexuality, because I don’t believe that that IS a sin …the sin, however, is homophobia, the fear and loathing of homosexuality, that IS a sin, and it’s a more egregious sin because it’s often in the name of scripture by religious people.� - Reverend Peter Gomes

“We have very perversely used “difference� to justify the cruelty of the most vicious sort …I equate homophobia to the injustice of apartheid …and that’s SO contrary to the heart of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.�

- Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There were two things that I remember (from the Bible) that were abominations …homosexuality and suicide and I’ll never forget thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh, you can never commit suicide because you’re gonna go to hell, but you can never be gay because you’re gonna go to hell.’�

- Chrissy Gephardt (lesbian daughter of former Democrat Politian, Dick Gephardt)


“The Bible is the word of God through the words of human beings speaking in the idiom of their time …and the richness of the Bible comes from the fact that we don’t take it as literally so, (as if) it were dictated by God.� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There are about six or seven verses in all of scripture that speak to, even remotely, what we might call homosexual activity or homosexual conduct.�
- Reverend Peter Gomes

[Joab]

Choosing to engage in homosexuality

Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Simply beyond belief.

[KCKID]

KCKID

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.�

It is an abomination, not just a sin. It is behavior that exists outside of the worldview and life described for people that follow the God of Abraham. There is no compatibility with same gender sex acts and what is supposed to be acceptable sexuality for a man and woman/husband and wife. Choosing to engage in homosexuality is a choice that has consequences.

I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality.

Too bad. If you do not want to consider the religious choices of others than you are daringly close to persecution of the faithful. There is no such thing as positive homosexuality anywhere in the Bible.

And in any event, if this is a personal issue for you, which you just define that it is . . . invent your own religion or find solace in organizations that celebrate and encourage people to engage in homosexuality and allow others the right to reject your new religious demands.

'Fraid not on this thread, 99percent. There's criteria to be followed - which you haven't - and so the above by you is not worth reading. How about you try again? We've heard a lot from you over the months with regard to your blanket condemnation of homosexuality as per, YOU say, the Bible. This is your big chance to give an analysis of the actual scriptures I presented with which to affirm your 'Christian' stance on this issue. Personally, I don't believe that they pertain to homosexuality as we refer to it nowadays at all. But, by all means, prove me wrong.

[KCKID]

KCKID

“ . . . like Goebbels said, working for Hitler,

you tell a lie enough times the [

u]whole world will believe it.�[/u]

- Reverend Dr. Mel White

Further to - but not to detract from - the above thread starter are the following quotes from the homosexual documentary, "for the BIBLE tells me so".

“I can’t for the life of me imagine that God would say, ‘I will punish you because you are black …you should have been white; I will punish you because you are a woman …you should have been a man; I punish you because you are a homosexual …you ought to have been heterosexual …� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There’s nothing wrong with a 5th-Grade understanding of God …as long as you’re in the 5th-Grade.� Reverend Dr. Laurence C. Keene

“You have to THINK when you read the Bible which is why, before the Reformation, perhaps the Roman Catholics were right saying ordinary people shouldn’t be reading the Bible because usually they get it wrong …and, I’m convinced, that usually we do.� Reverend Peter Gomes

“We have been conditioned to hold these beliefs by the Church – and it really has been the Church that is the place where the prejudice was born and was nurtured and has been promoted.� - Reverend Jimmy Creech, Faith in America


“Biblical literalists are people who know the truth absolutely …and so they’re not able to engage in a conversation …they’re only able to engage in a pronouncement.� - Right Reverend Richard Holloway, Bishop of Edinburgh (Ret.)

“For a long time the Bible has been misused to support prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, the second-class citizenship of women …now it’s being used …misused … to condemn gay people. It’s an old trick that Fundamentalist Christians have been using throughout the ages …and now, they’re doing it again.� - The Reverend Dr. Mel White


“The sin with which we should be concerned is not homosexuality, because I don’t believe that that IS a sin …the sin, however, is homophobia, the fear and loathing of homosexuality, that IS a sin, and it’s a more egregious sin because it’s often in the name of scripture by religious people.� - Reverend Peter Gomes

“We have very perversely used “difference� to justify the cruelty of the most vicious sort …I equate homophobia to the injustice of apartheid …and that’s SO contrary to the heart of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.�

- Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There were two things that I remember (from the Bible) that were abominations …homosexuality and suicide and I’ll never forget thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh, you can never commit suicide because you’re gonna go to hell, but you can never be gay because you’re gonna go to hell.’�

- Chrissy Gephardt (lesbian daughter of former Democrat Politian, Dick Gephardt)


“The Bible is the word of God through the words of human beings speaking in the idiom of their time …and the richness of the Bible comes from the fact that we don’t take it as literally so, (as if) it were dictated by God.� Reverend Desmond Tutu

“There are about six or seven verses in all of scripture that speak to, even remotely, what we might call homosexual activity or homosexual conduct.�
- Reverend Peter Gomes

What is it that you intended to impart with this post, 99percent?

Remember that your 'Christian' slur (and that of mainstream Christianity) toward homosexuals and homosexuality in general is based on nothing other than those scriptures I presented in my initial post. My claim is that they have been misappropriately used with which to demean and dehumanize homosexual people. Since it's YOU and YOURS making these claims then the onus is on you and they to prove that these scriptures are indeed saying what you/they claim they are saying. You claim some kind of anti-Christian conspiracy with regard to some, I believe, fictitious 'gay agenda' that you persistently harp about. I would suggest that, if there be any conspiracy at all, it's rather a conspiracy against gay people as created by 'the Christian Church'.

Since you've so far ignored them and have merely given a meaningless but rather typical rant, here are those scriptures again for you to address:

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)

Please discuss the above scriptures exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?
interpretation: what do the passages mean?
correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?
application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

[connermt]

[Replying to post 1 by KCKID]

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality?

Many likely reasons. Here are a few:
It's the 'in thing' to b*tch and moan about these days. Christians like to be in the spot light so their beliefs are relegated to the back of the shelf were it really belongs AKA drama queens (ironic, ain’t it?)

Many christians are gay and they try to work through it by judging others. It's also a way for them to 'get off' - watching others suffer and live vicariously through them.

They think that by making their environment ‘god like’ they will win favor with god and buy their way into heaven

They think that by making their environment ‘god like’ they won’t be tempted any longer and have an easier life until heaven’s reached

They’re a bunch of self-righteous, know-it-all jerks that ‘get off’ by causing issues for others

So they can invest their selves into others’ issues and ignore their own

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

I've never understood it. How can someone call themselves a Christian, yet still think homosexuality is an abomination. Seeing how they're not Jewish and use mostly the new testament where Jesus makes his speeches, some of them are still caught up with the old testament, which at any other time they'd say no longer really applies to them. How can it apply sometimes, but not all the time, even though it's god's divine word?

Also, in what way is oppressing gay people (or anyone) with your religion loving or caring? Isn't Christianity supposed to be about acting like Christ? And what gives you the right to presume what is an 'abomination against nature' and what isn't?

[KCKID]

I've never understood it. How can someone call themselves a Christian, yet still think homosexuality is an abomination.

Thanks for your contribution ...nice to see you here. Many Christians, even most perhaps, have little knowledge of their Bible. Their 'knowledge' comes from the mouths and the beliefs of the ministers of their particular church who, they believe, can be trusted implicitly. After all, he's a minister ...he's the oracle of all things scriptural and pretty much akin to God.

Most Christians would not be interested (or probably too lazy) in researching the very book that they claim to uphold. Case in point ...when a Christian mouths the words, "God says that homosexuality is an abomination" but is then asked to present the Bible text where this is found, probably 99% of them would not have the slightest clue as to where to begin looking. But, they still believe that they speak with authority whenever they mouth that catch-cry.

To many or most Christians 'hearsay' and showing up for church every week is the total sum of their Christianity. These days, probably thanks to the Internet, this form of Christianity is dying out. People are now more aware of the deception as taught by the Christian Church with regard to the homosexual issue as well as other long-held beliefs. And this, surely, can only be a good thing since Jesus Himself allegedly said that "the truth will set you free'. Those churches that are still bound in homophobic unity and continue to preach a hate message toward those who just happen to be (gasp) gay will eventually be held to account ...probably in the form of decreasing membership. It's my understanding that this is already happening.

Seeing how they're not Jewish and use mostly the new testament where Jesus makes his speeches, some of them are still caught up with the old testament, which at any other time they'd say no longer really applies to them. How can it apply sometimes, but not all the time, even though it's god's divine word?

Well, clearly the contents of the Bible are used selectively by some Christians, usually the fundamentalists. Actually, if the truth be known, I doubt that most Christians even care what the Bible may or may not say. I would even go as far as to say that MOST Christians don't have a problem with gay people ...not from a scriptural perspective anyway. They're been programed to believe that they are supposed to dislike homosexuality. Certain ones on this forum - mentioning no names - will even imply that UNLESS you condemn homosexuality then you can't possibly be a believer in Jesus Christ ...even though Jesus Himself breathed NOT A WORD about homosexuality!

Many people - unlike the horse - CAN be led to water AND be made to drink! In fact, many people who are looking for some religious meaning in their lives may be particularly susceptible to such gullibility. "The Church" seems to cater for those that are available to hear and adhere to their message. In fact, they often appear to count on this from their membership. The message? ...turn off your God-given brain and simply listen, absorb and don't ask any hard questions!

Also, in what way is oppressing gay people (or anyone) with your religion loving or caring? Isn't Christianity supposed to be about acting like Christ? And what gives you the right to presume what is an 'abomination against nature' and what isn't?

I've presented above the scriptures that are commonly used to condemn homosexuality. I personally don't believe that any of them apply to homosexuality as we today refer to it. I've challenged those that base their anti-gay stance on these texts (or/and any other Bible texts they care to produce) to come forward and explain why. So far, the only sound I hear from the place where these folks reside is the sound of crickets.