Christian "Love" for "Homosexuals"

Debating issues regarding sexuality

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Haven
Guru
Posts: 1803
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:23 pm
Location: Tremonton, Utah
Has thanked: 70 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Christian "Love" for "Homosexuals"

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
♥ Kindness is the greatest adventure ♥

99percentatheism
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3083
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:49 am

Post #121

Post by 99percentatheism »

Danmark
99percentatheism wrote: Danmark
99percentatheism wrote: I have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance right here on the desk next to my PC. It just says: SODOMITE (sod' -om-ite) See also SODOMITES

But wait a minute, what if one is born with a prostitution orientation? . . . sodomy . . . beliefs about sodomy and... homosexuality? You seem to always ignore that sexuality as in proper sexuality....
You talk more about sex, and 'sodomy' in particular, more than everyone one else on this forum combined. Have you examined why you are so interested in the subject?
It's just reality. Actuality really. When dealing with the LGBT (etc., etc., etc., ) community and its culture and worldview, that is just what is THEIR proclamations. I'd rather not have to ever have deal with them or this subject at all....
Then why not stop? You're just about the only one here who 'deals with it' constantly by talking about it.
Gay-istic perspectives enters into debate here on many occasions where I do not author a thread. I'd give anything if this subject would go away. Or go back to where it came from. But alas, the Pandora's Box has been opened (again) and The Church faces a great adversary. I am compelled by those that have gone before me to deal with this issue head on.
I've never heard any of my gay or lesbian friends or relatives talk about sex.
My gay friends have it as central to their lives. My best friend has gone around the world indulging in as much gay sexual behavior as he can fit in. I lived in a very active gay community and I find it hard to believe your statement. When I was an atheist, ALL of the gay people I knew were all about as many sexual experiences with as may multiple partners as they could fit into their schedules.
Sex talk seems to be one of the dominant topics of conversation between heterosexual children, teens and young people.
I believe the LGBT comunity calls them "Questioning Youth" right?

That IS what the "Q" stands for in the ever growing list of letters the gay community adds to their groups.
I don't understand why you feel so compelled to 'deal' with it if you don't like 'dealing with it.
It is based on love. And not the lascivious kind. That you cannot identify with that or understand Christian endeavors is not my concern. I'm not writing to convince non or anti Christians in my posts or positions. I stand on what Paul wrote in Romans 1. We face a grave threat (in my opinion obviously), one that is quite literally inventing a new theology and religion and replacing "The faith delivered only once to the saints." And I contend for the faith delivered only once to the saints. Of whom and of which, I claim to number.

Answer me this in the following Danmark, or don't, if you don't want to:

Why can't homosexuals that call themselves Christians, come to the defense of their so-called brothers and sisters in Christ, - since every single mention, definition and description of marriage in the New Testament is 100% man and woman/husband and wife - and support the pro morality stance of those Christians that will not support the homosexualization of The Church?

You never hear of or see the porn addicted people in The Church rail against the "anti-porn" positions of Christians that won't support porn use and its accompanying (inappropriate) sexual behavior. You never hear the "proud" adulterers and the social justice re-marrieds that are also not supported by Christian doctrine, try to sue anyone that won't "affirm" their sexuality and sexual behavior. You never hear of or see the promiscuous people in the Church demand to have their sexuality affirmed and celebrated in The Church. And every single one of the people and behaviors I referenced, each and every one, could demand a congenital sexual orientation to excuse away their sin, sinning and sinfulness.

The threat coming at The Church from a purely secular movement now demanding authority over Christians, must be contended against. And if God wills it, by suffering the persecution that seems all but inevitable.

History repeating? Supernaturally or even in metaphor, the danger seems just as real.
The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,� he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.�

“No,� they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.�

But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight?

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing.

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.� They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

- Genesis 19
It doesn't seem such a metaphor to the reality Jude faced.
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.

In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts . . .

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith . . . keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

- Jude 1 (edited for appropriateness)

connermt
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5199
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:58 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #122

Post by connermt »

I've found that there is, in this case, two kinds of love we see from christians:
The first kind is the love of compassion. While they may disagree 'gayness' calling it a sin, they still support the right of those individuals and stand with them when it comes to discrimination.
The other kind of love is what we see so often: not allowing them to attend churches, making their lives as difficult as possible both socially and legally in a way that does not better the lives of the gay people, secure their place in heaven, nor positively impacts the christian views of the oppressors.
Unfortunately, we see more of 'the other kind' than not.
One has to ask WHY....why do people who say they love people different than themselves (in this case gay people) do the things they do that don't benefit the sinner's souls and make their earthly lives more difficult?
From my experience, it's out of fear and hatred.
Why else would someone go to extremes to 'protect marriage from gay people' while allowing divorce, marriage for money, arranged marriages (and yes they still happen) etc. if it wasn't out of fear and hate?
Christianity in this case (likely other religions too) allows for people to promote negative things from within it (ie hate) when it's, many times, legally protected from retribution of their actions outside of popular opinion.
In essences, religions like christianity are a haven for people who want to discriminate, hate, chastise, etc. Because, when all else fails, they can 'cry for forgiveness' and all is forgiven (cite Jimmy Swaggart for example).
It's like a bully shooting spitballs while hiding behind his dad - cowardly.
Personally, I have more respect for people who take a stand on their own principles than hiding behind ancient beliefs only when it benefits themselves while, simultaneously hurting other people.
That's one reason why I'm not longer a participant within christianity - fortunately.

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #123

Post by Danmark »

99percentatheism wrote: My gay friends have it as central to their lives. My best friend has gone around the world indulging in as much gay sexual behavior as he can fit in. I lived in a very active gay community and I find it hard to believe your statement. When I was an atheist, ALL of the gay people I knew were all about as many sexual experiences with as may multiple partners as they could fit into their schedules.
I have to defer to your experience. It is vastly different than mine.
But what I strenuously object to is what seems inherent in your argument:

You are comparing a highly promiscuous, and proudly promiscuous lifestyle with a monogamous one.
I have been careful throughout these discussions to at least try to compare apples to apples; that is, to compare a monogamous, committed, loving same sex relationship to a monogamous, committed, loving heterosexual relationship.

To use the argument you propose, we should consider highly promiscuous heterosexual relationships where the apparent goal is to achieve the highest number of casual sexual liaisons in the shortest time period
with
a single monogamous, loving, exclusive and committed same sex relationship that abides for 50 years without betrayal. Can we at least agree that whatever comparisons need be made should be done on the basis of ceteris paribus?

99percentatheism
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3083
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:49 am

Post #124

Post by 99percentatheism »

Danmark
99percentatheism wrote: My gay friends have it as central to their lives. My best friend has gone around the world indulging in as much gay sexual behavior as he can fit in. I lived in a very active gay community and I find it hard to believe your statement. When I was an atheist, ALL of the gay people I knew were all about as many sexual experiences with as may multiple partners as they could fit into their schedules.
I have to defer to your experience. It is vastly different than mine.
I am not lying. For a Christian, that statement carries with it consequences that reach into life after death. That "best friend" of mine is a solid "Bible believing" Christian. Was before his gay behavior reached untold (literally) numbers of sexual partners and he still is.
But what I strenuously object to is what seems inherent in your argument:
We'll see about that.
You are comparing a highly promiscuous, and proudly promiscuous lifestyle with a monogamous one.
Nope, not at all. I am comparing a Christian truth with a non Christian truth. There is no such thing as same gender marriage anywhere in scripture. No more so than there is celebration for promiscuity. Both are simply sins and sinning. If you can produce scriptures to the contrary, that are solidly and definitively pro homosexuality, male and female, then please enlighten me.
I have been careful throughout these discussions to at least try to compare apples to apples; that is, to compare a monogamous, committed, loving same sex relationship to a monogamous, committed, loving heterosexual relationship.
And I have been perfectly careful to compare apples to apples. Sins to sins. Sinning and sinning. To invent some kind of a congenital pass for homosexual sins makes it OK to do for any and every other kind of sin one can try to justify with the same tactic. And i notice with complete satisfaction, that the APA basically is in business to do just that.
To use the argument you propose, we should consider highly promiscuous heterosexual relationships where the apparent goal is to achieve the highest number of casual sexual liaisons in the shortest time period
with a single monogamous, loving, exclusive and committed same sex relationship that abides for 50 years without betrayal.
No. It is you that is now comparing apples to a tuna sandwich. There is no such thing as same gender marriage anywhere in Christian definition or classification. The use of highly promiscuous individuals and of course groups, is just looking at the reality of what the "LGBT and Q" community is. Marching along happily supported in Gay Pride events is the highly promiscuous and "affirmed" part of that community.

Proof?

PrEP

Pre Exposure Prophylactic

For those living at risk for HIV. Look it up. On a commercial for the program "Out Chicago," on WCPT (that I listened to when I was in Chicago), mentioned PrEP prominently in its commercial.
Can we at least agree that whatever comparisons need be made should be done on the basis of ceteris paribus?
Salva veritate

Do you really think that gay marriage is going to make the LGBT community a version of Christian life as described in the New Testament? Gay marriage is not ceteris paribus the definition described in the New Testament. That's just the facts.

Remember, at the very least, 50% of Christians are getting the Christian married life right.

What we should strive for is to take our positions to and from completely different addresses and denominations and "scholars." Gay religion with its gay theology being proclaimed in in Gay Denoms and Christian life as described in the Gospels in Bible affirming Churches and Bible believing Denominations.

connermt
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5199
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:58 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #125

Post by connermt »

[Replying to post 124 by 99percentatheism]
Remember, at the very least, 50% of Christians are getting the Christian married life right.
Can you supply data to support that claim - from a non-religious biased group?
I would be interested in seeing that.

Post Reply