Christian "Love" for "Homosexuals"

[Haven]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

[bluethread]

I believe that societies have every right to regulate behaviors that have a likelihood of resulting in injury, disease and death.

So what do you propose ...video monitoring the bedrooms, i.e. 'bedrooms' being an idiom for 'privacy', of everyone on the off-chance they might be participating in sadism, erotic strangulation and suicide pacts?

That is a good question. If there were such laws how would they be enforced? Mind you the accusation is against a society that had no video monitoring. What is the difference between such activities and abuse, save the whim of the participant. If the activity were illegal, would not the risk of accusation of abuse be the means of enforcement? Isn't third party intervention in abuse cases just interference in such a relationship?

However, let me ask you, is this simply because these things are combined with sexual activity, or are you a hard core libertarian?

Oh yeah ...I'm really into depraved acts of sexual sadism, erotic strangulation and suicide pacts ...NOT! In a way I hope that you are toying with me ...otherwise I might start to feeling a little creeped out by this line of questioning.

The truth is ...I'm really not that interested in one's sexual proclivities ...they can strangle each other or be as sadistic as they like since it's none of my business. Nor am I a hard core libertarian. So, no, I'm neither of those. I'm just an average Joe that tries to get along with everyone even though I am sometimes frustratingly (to some) very opinionated ...especially nowadays.

Actually, if not for the fact that I'm a fair musician (:dance2:) and feature this in public at times I might even be considered a tad boring most of the time ...!

I wasn't talking about you personal preferences, but your philosophical position. A hard core libertarian can be quite conservative even orthodox in personal practice. Such an one might merely take the position that the case of the man who cannibalized another man who wished to have that experience should not have been prosecuted. Frankly, I am glad we have finally reached a point at which you are feeling creeped out. So, let's try to identify that point and why the line is drawn there. If indeed it is none of your business, would it effect your behavior if you found out that your neighbor was doing those things?

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

"Gay people?" Why can't you say homosexuals?
....

Yes. Only if Jesus is NOT the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Only if you have a Jesus like Spong's that can be forced to fit any new pop fad.
....

"Men in bed together?" How much more precise do you want Paul to be? Do we really need the Johnson and Johnson products and visuals added? C'mon now, the children?
....
You are your side are the only ones wasting time trying to gay pride the scriptures. The rest of us hundreds of millions just want to be allowed to preach the Gospel without being labled as some kind of gay pride violators. But then again, it was Nero - man that married men - that instituted the first "secular" persecutions.
....

You have been advised that the term 'homosexual' is a term of derision against gays, yet you continue to use it.

When was that? And what kind of propaganda are you espousing? It/they, claim to have a homosexual orientation. What new twist if this to the gay agenda? What "behavior and orientation" is same gender sexuality supposed to be labeled???? I have never heard of this new tactic in the culture, religious and theological wars.

To many in that community your insensitivity and in particular the WAY you use the word, not to mention calling them 'sinners,' is, to many fair minded people similar to racial epithets.

So attacking my Christian faith now trumps a new same gender sexuality cultural movement? Uhhyeeesssshhh the propaganda of neologism is getting too complicated. But maybe that's the goal. It used to be "queer" was the identity and then that was morphed into gay. And now??? Sheeeessshh settle on a cultural moniker and be done with huh?

Insisting on using that word, especially the way you use it is like saying 'fag' or 'queer.'

That is not only an empty charge it, it is some kind of a silencing tactic. You may need to start building a lot of new prisons if you think homosexuality is going to gain that much power over the minds of the populace to do away with Christian apologetics and missionary work. If NOW "homosexual" and "homosexuality" are to be hate speech, man, that looks to build the prison population intensely.

I do not in my wildest imagination expect you to agree.

"Wildest imagination?" Would that be hateful thing if I agreed that your imagination towards my apologia and theological positions is "wild"?

I'm sure you will continue to insist on using 'homosexual' because you really don't care if you are hurtful or insensitive.

Same gender sex acts. Same gender boffing. Same gender "marriage" no matter how you rename the rose, it is still a rose.

If it appears that preaching the Gospel is hurtful and insensitive too them, why not write to the FBI to find me in real life and lock me up. If I am to be a real martyr . . so be it. If neologism becomes so powerful a tool against Christians like me, then it is God's will that we suffer for the Gospel.

What you have made clear over and over and over, is that the ONLY correct interpretation of scripture is your own.

And how is that different than saying that ONLY uh, er, um, same gender sexual behavior acting out persons . . . (whew) are the ONLY ONES with a new and correct religion any different?

Danmark, there IS NO support for the homosexualization of the New Testament. (OR of the Tanakh). That is not the man behind the username 99percentatheism being insenitive or hateful, "homophobic or whatever else the LGBT's can come up with to label us negatively . . . it is me being honest.

You ridicule Spong and any other Christian or non Christian who has the sophistication, background and intelligence to at least be open to a non literal interpretation that takes into consideration the cultural milieu of the time in which a passage was written.

Notice how much Spong and anti-Christians are in concert? And your assertion of a personal nature towards ME here is absolutely wrong! "I" have authored a thread with over 100,000 views about a "gay denomination." Where Spong and his like, can peddle gay theology to their hearts content.

There are plenty of good Christians on this forum who agree that being gay is a violation of 'God's Word' as they understand it, but they do not present their views in such a strident, angry, bombastic, and intolerant manner as you do.

Where? Where are they? Where is their "anti-gay" positions stated that are not "anti-gay" positions stated? No sir, I am hated because I am labeled and targeted FOR hate by my detractors. I have stated over and over and over and over again, that LGBT's OR anyone else can invent any religion they want to. OR any non or anti religious views they want to. I have never stated the ultra totalitarianism that you seem to be reprsesenting in the homosexualization of The Church. It certainly appears that the homosexual theology TOTALLY REPLACES and eliminates the clear teaching of scripture since Peter and Paul, James, Jude and John fought the good fight.

If you so desire to accuse me of such wrong doing PROVE IT VIA the New Testament scripture. NOT gay pride!! Throughout my time here I have presented scriptures AND other history to prove my positions are NOT emotionalism but fact based.

I find your charges against me here without merit.

The difficulty in your usage of a literal interpretation, that makes no allowance for ANY cultural change, and to personally sit in judgement of others, calling them "sinners" is that it projects an angry, evil, vindictive form of Christianity that in the past was used to promote slavery, racism, and prejudice against the poor.

And comparing sex acts to slavery is propaganda. The poor and races of every kind on this planet ARE STILL being helped and served by Christians. Prejudice??? Anyone that thinks that not affirming homosexual behavior is prejudice doesn't know anything about history. There are solid reasons not to promote anything goes!!!

Your attitude reminds me of the old Scofield Reference Bible that used verses in Genesis to excuse the racism of those 'Christians,' claiming those verses referred to Africans. There was some logical basis for that evil misinterpretation, but that did not make it right.

Um, do you notice that that is exactly what gay theology does?

It forces INTO scriptures what is clearly not there.

Your prejudice against the non-affirming Christian stance clouds your ability to judge me fairly. I am confident in my positions. No prejudice need apply nor be applied. I stand before Christ on this matter. Not you. I am handling scripture and history honestly. Your accusation can only imprison me in a secular court. That scares me somewhat but I stand in the same theological spot as did the Christians that brought us the faith delivered only once to the saints. There are far more than :six clobber passages" to prove that the homosexualization or rather the LGBTization of Christianity has no basis in Christian truth or history.

The fact that you harp on constantly on only one issue in virtually all your posts here, convinces me you use the Bible as an excuse for your personal issues.

This is one of the greatest threats to The Church in history. Other than Islam, I cannot see a greater threat to our peace and safety. I am called to "love" mt fellow Christian believer as a command from Christ Jesus. I handle the Islamization of the Church the same way. But then again, I notice that "Islamaphobia" has been created to silence that too!

My personal opinion of your views and the way you express them make it impossible for me to fairly act as a moderator on your posts that are reported.

I have made that charge. (My views are judged through a gay paradigm. A newly invented political correctness. Otherwise, my positions are utterly sound theologically and historically.) And I do applaud your noticing that. And I also note with fascination, that emotionalism such as yours in real life too is making it very difficult for Christians to live as Christians have for 2000-years. Chick-fil-A was a harbinger of dread that Christians are going to face in the upcoming tsunami of gay power taking hold in minds across the non and anti Christian spectrum. Remember how boldly Mayor Emmanuel denounced Christians from his position of power and authority. Such brazen anti-Christian pronouncements are incredibly impressive to observe. AND now, in North Carolina, the new gay pride propaganda being implemented in the secular courts is to claim religious persecution for the stance against redefining marriage. is a violation of the First Amendment. My, my, my how sophisticated this is all becoming. You would think there is something behind all this that has incredible power.

Man, this is exciting times. More than likely the end times, but like I teach, if all the bad stuff in the Bible is true, all the good stuff is too! And you should hear my teachings about corporations! It is very un-loving. You'd think I was a lefty for sure.

You can hate "me" or my writings, or whatever . . . to your hearts content. And why can't I charge the anti-Christian positions of gay theology as hate based? They are after all destroying long-lived (and printed out) Christian life and replacing it with homosexual theological beliefs that do not find ANY support ANYWHERE from the testimony of scriptures. How is that not a bad thing? But my positions are fact based and honestly presented. And you label that as something odious. Didn't Jesus predict that this would be the condition of a Christian's life that stood firm for the Gospel?

That is a statement I make to you, to this website and of course to The Judge of my soul.

Why can't you live your LGBT religion in LGBT organizations and allow us Christians that will not "affirm homosexuality" all to wait until judgment day to allow Jesus to judge us?

You want tolerance and diversity or secular totalitarianism over The Church?

How is there "love" in corrupting the message of the Gospel? Which is a message about repentance and forgiveness of sins and living a life in Christ towards believers and non believers alike . . . and not the redefining of the Gospel for political power. Caesar, nor Barack Obama, or Rahm Emmanuel, or the "LGBT (and the other letters added on now) Community" do not rule over The Church. Even if they demands to do so.

I will make my defense every time anyone accuses me of not being a "loving" Christian. I'd rather not have to, but when it is demanded, I must stand and deliver.

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 89 by Danmark]

I replied to your accusation and charges against me in post 92 above. My apologia was called for and delivered.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

So let me get this straight. You are positing that one can be a Christian if they simply can pronounce the word Christian and can attach to it ANYTHING they personally feel it to mean?

(I went back and bolded that question.)

And I repeat:

So let me get this straight. You are positing that one can be a Christian if they simply can pronounce the word Christian and can attach to it ANYTHING they personally feel it to mean?

Of course anyone can call themselves a Christian without the need to offer proof.

OK cool. So we can teach that anyone can say they are "Gay" but was "cured" by God in their mother's womb. I like this application of anything goes labeling. I wonder though, if I claim to be a pro basketball player and was on the Chicago Bulls' championship teams if anyone would ask me for proof? Or could I just rely on my feeeeeeellllliiiinnnnnnggggggsss for my position?

You may well use this remark as a comeback against Spong or me or whoever but that's okay.

The New Testament witness makes it clear that there are qualifications. Jesus makes it clear in the Gospel. Too. The cross of Pope Francis shows this quite impressively.

it depicts Christ the Good Shepherd carrying the lost sheep on his shoulders, with the flock in the background. At the top is the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove

- http://www.giftscatholic.com/official-c ... MgodnnoAnw

Or is referring to LGBT's as "lost sheep" also a hate crime?

The same thing applies for everyone.

My positions perfectly described.

When one professes to be a Christian a halo doesn't suddenly appear above their heads thereby making their "Christianity" recognizable to everyone.

Not usually. Except for my daughter. You haven't met her. But then again, she is off to college and I'm sure that halo has a huge target on it for far too many eh-hem . . people.

As Billy Sunday allegedly said: “Going to church doesn't make one a Christian any more than going to a garage makes one an automobile."

Moi, from start to finish here. You know that more than anyone else at www.debatingchristianity.com

That said, it's not for any of us to judge the truth or the purity of a person's convictions.

That is just not supported in scripture. Please provide evidence to say that we are to allow false teachers and false teachings to be an "equality" issue in The Church? Start a new thread in doctrines and I'll be there. How does one "contend for the faith" without judging people's actions, beliefs and worldviews? Where does Jesus tell us not to judge the world and peoples around us?

"Judge nt lest ye be judged" is stopped mid-teaching.

Here it is Matthew 7, in the infamous King James:

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

And let us continue:

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

That looks like a whole lotta "advice" about judging people being taught by Jesus here.

[Haven]

That is not only an empty charge it, it is some kind of a silencing tactic. You may need to start building a lot of new prisons if you think homosexuality is going to gain that much power over the minds of the populace to do away with Christian apologetics and missionary work. If NOW "homosexual" and "homosexuality" are to be hate speech, man, that looks to build the prison population intensely.

If it appears that preaching the Gospel is hurtful and insensitive too them, why not write to the FBI to find me in real life and lock me up. If I am to be a real martyr . . so be it. If neologism becomes so powerful a tool against Christians like me, then it is God's will that we suffer for the Gospel.

No one wants to put you or any other anti-gay preacher in prison. You guys should be treated exactly like KKK members or Westboro Baptist Church protesters -- ostracized from society for your hate, but still allowed to express your repugnant views.

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 94 by 99percentatheism]

<sigh>
99percent, what I'm doing here only seems to be exacerbating inner demons that you appear to possess, I don't mean that in a supernatural OR a derogatory way, I quickly add. Your passion over this topic is so outrageously excessive and, quite frankly, it's beyond me what might have been responsible for this. All I can think to say right now is that I'm feeling a tad sorry for you and I don't mean that in a patronizing way either. I just do. Reading your response to Danmark (even though I very much agree with him) really took the wind out of my sails and, at the moment anyway, I don't feel like arguing with you. This feeling might only be temporary but right now you really sound as though you could do with a big hug from someone. If I could I would offer to do that.

[99percentatheism]

Is there Christian "love" in preaching a lie?

Is there Christian "love" in celebrating the world* and its ways?

Is there Christian "love" in inventing a new religion that veers away from New Testament scripture and calls itself "Christian?

Should an atheist or some other person belonging to some other non or anti Christian worldview force their beliefs and demands on Christians to conform to their secular worldview and belief system? Is it not of the world *and its ways that is being demanded to take authority over all of Christian life?

If Bible affirming Christians are to be equated to KKK members, Wesrboro protesters (and homosexual/gay pride activists), are we not compelled to answer that spurious charge?

So why would anyone compare Bible-affirming Christians that live the Gospel message . . . to the KKK and one small "activist" church in Kansas? That's just not a sound charge. There is the same void of support for their behavior in the New Testament as there is a void of support for promoting gay pride. So why would anyone use that comparison as some kind of accusation of wrongdoing?

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,� he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.�

“No,� they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.�

But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.�

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.�

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.�

They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door.

Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place.

The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.�

- Genesis 19

. . . In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!�

Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

. . .

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

. . .

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.� 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts . . .

. . .

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith . . .

. . . keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

. . .

. . . Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear

—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling . . .

- Jude 1

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.

They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness[ to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

2 Peter 2

"If the world* hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world*, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world*, but I have chosen you out of the world*. That is why the world* hates you.

- Jesus (John 15)

. . . ostracized from society for your hate, but still allowed to express your repugnant views.

Haven

“Haven’t you read,� he (Jesus) replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.�

- Jesus, on what a marriage is. Matthew 19

[Joab]

Is there Christian "love" in inventing a new religion that veers away from New Testament scripture and calls itself "Christian?

To which of the 40,000 do you refer?

Or do you consider them all to be "christian"?

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 91 by bluethread]

Hi bluethread

I don't know how I would be affected if I found that my neighbor was involved in sexual sadism, erotic strangulation and suicide pacts that you brought up in previous posts. It's unlikely to happen. I guess I might say, "Oh wow ...who would've thought?!" or some equally stupid remark. And then I'd get back to the business of living my life and trying to avoid the temptation to tell others how to live theirs.

Now, since I've just about exhausted all of the comments that I can on this derailing of the OP, would you mind if we move on ...? Thanks.

[KCKID]

Hi 99percent. How's your day? Here are just a few comments with regard to some of the things you typed into your post.

Is there Christian "love" in preaching a lie?

The problem with this statement is that every scripture preached may be a potential lie or a potential truth or a potential part truth/part lie. Actually 'lie' is somewhat harsh. I don't think that any Christian would be intentionally preaching a lie, not at first anyway. Preaching 'misinformation' based on one's ignorance of a particular scripture might be a more accurate term. Whether we like it or not, belief in the Bible relies solely on 'faith' since its contents cannot be objectively verified. Even though the Bible itself warns against one's 'private interpretation' one can hardly read the Bible and not do this.* And, that we have countless Christian denominations rather than just one more than implies that there is clearly disgreement regarding the scriptures.

*I would say that one's interpretation of the Bible comes mainly from the teaching of one's particular Christian denomination rather than from a personal reading of the Bible. It's 'human' to want to do as little actual 'thinking' than is absolutely necessary. The popular media, polititians, advertisers, and yes, religion pretty much counts on this 'human laziness'. So, if someone can relieve us from having to do too much thinking for ourselves ...all the better. Additionally, we especially tend to believe those who carry some kind of a formal education degree.

Is there Christian "love" in celebrating the world* and its ways?

Well, we don't need to take on 'the world' right now. It's the topic of homosexuality and Christian love toward gay people that is under discussion here. The definition of 'homosexuality' is 'sexual attraction to people of one's sex'. I don't think that has anything to do with 'the world' as you imply it.

Is there Christian "love" in inventing a new religion that veers away from New Testament scripture and calls itself "Christian?

I think one would be hard pressed to find a logical reason as to why one would object to this 'new religion' as you call it that teaches ..."All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination." Quote by John Shelby Spong.

Should an atheist or some other person belonging to some other non or anti Christian worldview force their beliefs and demands on Christians to conform to their secular worldview and belief system? Is it not of the world *and its ways that is being demanded to take authority over all of Christian life?

To stick to the topic, Christians who refer to themselves as 'followers of Christ' (hence "Christian") are not necessarily conforming to a secular worldview when they accept gay people into their fold. They are actually representing Jesus as He appears in the Gospels. I would defy anyone to disagree with this.

If Bible affirming Christians are to be equated to KKK members, Wesrboro protesters (and homosexual/gay pride activists), are we not compelled to answer that spurious charge?

So why would anyone compare Bible-affirming Christians that live the Gospel message . . . to the KKK and one small "activist" church in Kansas? That's just not a sound charge. There is the same void of support for their behavior in the New Testament as there is a void of support for promoting gay pride. So why would anyone use that comparison as some kind of accusation of wrongdoing?

Why would they indeed! While I personally never made the charge about Christians and the KKK, I would beg to differ with regard to your claim of mainstrean Christianity's disassociation with the WBC. Whenever the mainstream Christian Church uses Leviticus 20:13 with which to target gay people - and they DO frequently! - one might seriously consider that they are indeed equated to the WBC and their biblical accurate (though crude) banners that read: Fags Must Die: See Leviticus 20:13. So, the charge of 'association' hardly seems to be all that spurious. Do you believe in, and agree with, Leviticus 20:13 or don't you? Are the Westboro banners quoting Leviticus 20:13 accurately representing scripture or aren't they?

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,� he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.�

“No,� they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.�

But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.�

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.�

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.�

They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door.

Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place.

The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.�

- Genesis 19

. . . In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!�

Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

. . .

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

. . .

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.� 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts . . .

. . .

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith . . .

. . . keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

. . .

. . . Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear

—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling . . .

- Jude 1

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.

They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness[ to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

2 Peter 2

"If the world* hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world*, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world*, but I have chosen you out of the world*. That is why the world* hates you.

- Jesus (John 15)

. . . ostracized from society for your hate, but still allowed to express your repugnant views.

Haven

“Haven’t you read,� he (Jesus) replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.�

- Jesus, on what a marriage is. Matthew 19

Well, all of the above was pretty much a sermon and contributed nothing to the discussion. But, never mind ...it was good to read yet again about the Sodom and Gomorrah story and the angels' welcome wagon but you skipped the part where Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt. That's the part that really convinces me that this story is based on an actual event.

Have a good day anyway, 99percent.