Medical Adultery ?

[McCulloch]

my use of of the term scientific adultery is perfectly accurate.

Really?

Are you applying the disciplines of science on the behavior of adultery?

Yup.

"Scientific adultery" how is that not accurate to in vitro fertilization OR using a fertilized egg OR one of the couple having sex with someone else to "make the baby" for a couple of female homosexuals or a couple of male homosexuals that are "married" to one another? I stand on my definition. And I think that if you contemplate this for a second or two, you will too.

Two "married" men or two "married" women cannot make a baby together.

Yeah, I'm fairly cool with my description.

How is the term adultery defined? OK, you might think that I am daft. "Don't you know what adultery means?" Is adultery about only sex, procreation or both? If a married person has a sexual relationship with someone who is not his or her spouse, that is called adultery. But what about ways of getting pregnant that do not involve sex? Is it adultery for a physician to perform in vitro fertilization and embryo implantation? Are surrogate mothers committing adultery? Are sperm donors necessarily adulterers? What if it is their wives who collect the samples?

1. Alice's sister cannot keep a pregnancy to term. She offers to carry the embryo created from her sister's egg and her sister's husband, Brad's sperm in her womb for them.
2. Caroline's husband is impotent, but they want to have a baby. She has one of her eggs fertilized by an anonymous donor.
3. In each of the previous cases, the physician doing the procedures is named Dianne.

[bluethread]

OK, so let's focus on the "bad thinking" and not the hyperbole. Let's also try to set aside the pet diatribes regarding sin, hell, evangelism, evil, etc. First, let's make sure we are in agreement on what we are discussing. Would you accept that adultery is a sexual relationship that is in violation of a marital contract and fornication is any sexual relationship outside of a marital contract? If not, please propose your amendments. If so, do you accept that these two are bad things? No reference to a deity or doctrine at this point, just establishing a basis for discussion.

Would you accept that adultery is a sexual relationship that is in violation of a marital contract and fornication is any sexual relationship outside of a marital contract?
Yes, and I agree that violating a promise is a 'bad thing.'
No, I don't agree that sexual relations outside a marital contract is necessarily a 'bad thing.'

I don't see the relevance of this to in vitro fertilization, but I assume you are leading to that.

As I said, I am trying to make sure that we are both talking about the same thing. The OP equates IVF with adultery. Therefore, it is important to come to some agreement on the nature of adultery, so we can do a proper comparison. Since, you just answered the questions regarding morality, I presume that you accept those definitions. So, unless you wish to correct that presumption, we will proceed with those definitions.

It appears that you have acknowledged that adultery is, at a minimum, a breach of contract and that is a bad thing. You then you say that fornication was not necessarily a "bad thing". You appear to be hedging there. When is it a bad thing and on what basis? Again, I am asking so that a proper comparison can be made.

[Danmark]

As I said, I am trying to make sure that we are both talking about the same thing. The OP equates IVF with adultery. Therefore, it is important to come to some agreement on the nature of adultery, so we can do a proper comparison. Since, you just answered the questions regarding morality, I presume that you accept those definitions. So, unless you wish to correct that presumption, we will proceed with those definitions.

It appears that you have acknowledged that adultery is, at a minimum, a breach of contract and that is a bad thing. You then you say that fornication was not necessarily a "bad thing". You appear to be hedging there. When is it a bad thing and on what basis? Again, I am asking so that a proper comparison can be made.

That is an acceptable approach, tho' I disagree with your assessment that I am 'hedging' re: 'fornication.' We agree breaking a promise is a bad thing. What promise is being broken in 'fornication?' Two unmarried, competent adults have sex with each other. I guess that is 'fornication.' No promises are being broken. Let's suppose they are careful about both birth control and transmission of STD's.

Where is the harm? Now certainly some religious folk will say it is wrong because it is wrong by Biblical definition. This of course won't convince anyone but the true believer. Wherein lies the evil? What is so wrong that someone should be sent to eternal agony over the mutually enjoyable act?

[bluethread]

bluethread scribed:

Would you accept that adultery is a sexual relationship that is in violation of a marital contract...?

I would, if you agree with Jesus that it also includes those who divorce and remarry due to anything other than infidelity.

This is not a negotiation, it is a clarification. If there is some way that IVF and divorce are similar, that might be relevant. However, at this point, I am just trying to establish clear definitions, so that one side or the other doesn't change the definitions to suit the moment. If someone thinks that adultery and fornication are totally acceptable, but IVF is not, that might also require some 'splainin'. The question at this point is whether there are similarities between adultery, fornication and IVF, and whether they are significant.

[dianaiad]

As I said, I am trying to make sure that we are both talking about the same thing. The OP equates IVF with adultery. Therefore, it is important to come to some agreement on the nature of adultery, so we can do a proper comparison. Since, you just answered the questions regarding morality, I presume that you accept those definitions. So, unless you wish to correct that presumption, we will proceed with those definitions.

It appears that you have acknowledged that adultery is, at a minimum, a breach of contract and that is a bad thing. You then you say that fornication was not necessarily a "bad thing". You appear to be hedging there. When is it a bad thing and on what basis? Again, I am asking so that a proper comparison can be made.

That is an acceptable approach, tho' I disagree with your assessment that I am 'hedging' re: 'fornication.' We agree breaking a promise is a bad thing. What promise is being broken in 'fornication?' Two unmarried, competent adults have sex with each other. I guess that is 'fornication.' No promises are being broken. Let's suppose they are careful about both birth control and transmission of STD's.

Where is the harm? Now certainly some religious folk will say it is wrong because it is wrong by Biblical definition. This of course won't convince anyone but the true believer. Wherein lies the evil? What is so wrong that someone should be sent to eternal agony over the mutually enjoyable act?

I'm not speaking for anybody else here, but from what I have seen in my own faith (and in others, actually) 'fornication' (meaning sex between unmarried partners) isn't seen in quite the same light as is adultery. It certainly isn't in my own faith. It's bad...but adultery can get you excommunicated.

Personally, I view sex between partners who are not married to each other as a devaluing of something very special that should be reserved only for married couples. "Being careful" about birth control and STD's does not guarantee that conception won't take place and that an STD won't occur; there's real truth in that saying that 'when you have sex with someone, you have sex with everybody your partner has had sex with.' There are some STD'S that you can't really 100% protect yourself from.

Not to mention that someone who is as irresponsible as to take a risk like that...nah. It's a very bad idea. never mind the 'sin' part. It's a very bad idea.

Sure it's enjoyable. So is sniffing cocaine or the feeling of free fall you get just before you splat. So is driving 100 MPH down Highway 1 in a convertible with the top down. Drunk. Lots of things are enjoyable. Doesn't mean they are good ideas.

[bluethread]

As I said, I am trying to make sure that we are both talking about the same thing. The OP equates IVF with adultery. Therefore, it is important to come to some agreement on the nature of adultery, so we can do a proper comparison. Since, you just answered the questions regarding morality, I presume that you accept those definitions. So, unless you wish to correct that presumption, we will proceed with those definitions.

It appears that you have acknowledged that adultery is, at a minimum, a breach of contract and that is a bad thing. You then you say that fornication was not necessarily a "bad thing". You appear to be hedging there. When is it a bad thing and on what basis? Again, I am asking so that a proper comparison can be made.

That is an acceptable approach, tho' I disagree with your assessment that I am 'hedging' re: 'fornication.' We agree breaking a promise is a bad thing. What promise is being broken in 'fornication?' Two unmarried, competent adults have sex with each other. I guess that is 'fornication.' No promises are being broken. Let's suppose they are careful about both birth control and transmission of STD's.

Where is the harm? Now certainly some religious folk will say it is wrong because it is wrong by Biblical definition. This of course won't convince anyone but the true believer. Wherein lies the evil? What is so wrong that someone should be sent to eternal agony over the mutually enjoyable act?

Well, you were hedging. You appear think that fornication is bad, if it results in a birth or the transmission of STDs. Does that also apply to adultery? If so we have three possible problems with adultery and fornication, violating agreements, risk of conception and STDs. Is there anything else? I think you might be reading things into these questions? All I am doing is evaluating adultery and fornication, so a proper comparison can be made.

[Danmark]

As I said, I am trying to make sure that we are both talking about the same thing. The OP equates IVF with adultery. Therefore, it is important to come to some agreement on the nature of adultery, so we can do a proper comparison. Since, you just answered the questions regarding morality, I presume that you accept those definitions. So, unless you wish to correct that presumption, we will proceed with those definitions.

It appears that you have acknowledged that adultery is, at a minimum, a breach of contract and that is a bad thing. You then you say that fornication was not necessarily a "bad thing". You appear to be hedging there. When is it a bad thing and on what basis? Again, I am asking so that a proper comparison can be made.

That is an acceptable approach, tho' I disagree with your assessment that I am 'hedging' re: 'fornication.' We agree breaking a promise is a bad thing. What promise is being broken in 'fornication?' Two unmarried, competent adults have sex with each other. I guess that is 'fornication.' No promises are being broken. Let's suppose they are careful about both birth control and transmission of STD's.

Where is the harm? Now certainly some religious folk will say it is wrong because it is wrong by Biblical definition. This of course won't convince anyone but the true believer. Wherein lies the evil? What is so wrong that someone should be sent to eternal agony over the mutually enjoyable act?

Well, you were hedging. You appear think that fornication is bad, if it results in a birth or the transmission of STDs. Does that also apply to adultery? If so we have three possible problems with adultery and fornication, violating agreements, risk of conception and STDs. Is there anything else? I think you might be reading things into these questions? All I am doing is evaluating adultery and fornication, so a proper comparison can be made.

I don't understand this 'hedging' refrain. You initiated that before I said anything about STD's or pregnancy. And I'm not saying those possibilities make it an 'evil.' I merely brought those issues up for discussion.

Please do not take my offer to be fair and open to possibilities as a capitulation.

So far the only thing we have agreed upon is that the breaking of a promise, the betrayal of faith to one's partner is wrong. Neither of us has said anything about 'fornication' that is 'evil.' I am still at a loss about why you claim I'm 'hedging' about fornication. Let me be clear, I see nothing wrong with people enjoying sex with each other. Breaking promises is a separate issue.

All activities have risks. That does not mean that engaging in those activities is wrong. What is the rational, secular issue that makes 'fornication' a 'sin?'

[bluethread]

I don't understand this 'hedging' refrain. You initiated that before I said anything about STD's or pregnancy. And I'm not saying those possibilities make it an 'evil.' I merely brought those issues up for discussion.

I didn't say anything about evil either. In fact, I have made no statement regarding values one way or the other. What I am saying is that you were hedging on the definition. Any definition that includes the phrase "not necessarily" is not really defining anything.

Please do not take my offer to be fair and open to possibilities as a capitulation.

I don't know what you would be capitulating to. I have yet to object to anything you have said, other than the use of terms that make a definition less clear. All I have done is ask for a clear understanding of the concepts under consideration.

So far the only thing we have agreed upon is that the breaking of a promise, the betrayal of faith to one's partner is wrong. Neither of us has said anything about 'fornication' that is 'evil.' I am still at a loss about why you claim I'm 'hedging' about fornication. Let me be clear, I see nothing wrong with people enjoying sex with each other. Breaking promises is a separate issue.

Relax, I am just look for definitions. Of course, adultery and fornication are two different things. I just want to make sure that we have an agreed upon set of definitions. The only reason why I asked you to identify what was bad about adultery was because you appeared to think that comparing IVF to it was somehow disparaging IVF. I then included fornication in the discussion, because the concept was included in a response to one of my inquiries.

All activities have risks. That does not mean that engaging in those activities is wrong. What is the rational, secular issue that makes 'fornication' a 'sin?'

What does that have to do with IVF? At this point I don't care whether fornication is a sin or not. Do you have some kind of problem with the term fornication? If it makes it any easier, we can use ES(extramarital sex) and US(unmarried sex) to refer to what is usually referred to as adultery and fornication. Let's just get some clear definitions and short lists of advantages and disadvantages, so we can get to comparing these things to IVF, which, after all, is the point of the thread.

[Danmark]

I don't understand this 'hedging' refrain. You initiated that before I said anything about STD's or pregnancy. And I'm not saying those possibilities make it an 'evil.' I merely brought those issues up for discussion.

I didn't say anything about evil either. In fact, I have made no statement regarding values one way or the other. What I am saying is that you were hedging on the definition. Any definition that includes the phrase "not necessarily" is not really defining anything.

This is where we disagree, or perhaps we are not in agreement with what I mean when I say "not necessarily." What I mean is that there is nothing inherently immoral about fornication in and of itself.

[bluethread]

I don't understand this 'hedging' refrain. You initiated that before I said anything about STD's or pregnancy. And I'm not saying those possibilities make it an 'evil.' I merely brought those issues up for discussion.

I didn't say anything about evil either. In fact, I have made no statement regarding values one way or the other. What I am saying is that you were hedging on the definition. Any definition that includes the phrase "not necessarily" is not really defining anything.

This is where we disagree, or perhaps we are not in agreement with what I mean when I say "not necessarily." What I mean is that there is nothing inherently immoral about fornication in and of itself.

Ok, but what about the thread topic. Is IVF or surrogacy like adultery or not?

[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 1 by McCulloch]

So that I am clear:
scientific adultery is being defined as anything that was normally biological that has been figured out by science and in which now we can do from the benefit of science?
If so, would that mean science is 'god adultery'? Science is replacing some of the needs for a god so isn't it the same thing?
I must admit, I've never heard the phase 'scientific/medical adultery' outside of here so maybe I'm reading too much into it?
I suppose one could make such a claim with the loose definition of the word adultery
If we use these terms this way, anything that's not 'natural' in the sense of HOW it's created (IVF, surrogacy, fertilization drugs blah blah blah) could be seen as 'adultery'.
If one was inclinded to create their own terms and expect others to adhere to them that is