Please Read What My Question Actually Is Before Responding to The Title of this Post
So I've found through numberous discussions about this topic that they all tend to break down at the same point. I'll take you through what have become my 4 primary points when discussing this. I won't go into crazy detail as I'm more concerned with why the discussion breaks down where it does as opposed to rehashing this point yet again (though I'm not entirely opposed if another thread were to form or if you think I need to go into further detail somewhere to better answer my question).
1) The bible appears to be far more concerned with a Love ethic than it does a Sexual ethic. The bible is full of sexual mores, but these are more practices of the time than they are rules by which we must live. Whether or not they agree with this point isn't super important as it's more meant to give a little context and insight into how I read the bible.
2) Regardless of where you personally stand on the issue, how the church has traditionally approached the issue is very detrimental and we need to change how we approach this issue. This point, when flushed out in further detail, is meant to garner a bit of empathy towards those being affected by the church on this matter.
3) This is where the argument tends to take a more theological/exegetical turn and more often than not leads to Paul... And more importantly Romans 1:26-27... I have two issues with this text and the second is where most of my debates tend to be cut short.
a) Romans 1 cannot be understood (in my opinion) without Romans 2... It is a one-two punch, a common literary strategy used my speakers and preachers even today... One of drawing the audience in, feeding them lines they already agree with and then throwing them a curve ball to make them second guess those firm beliefs they had mere moments ago. Romans 1 basically goes, 'look at all these bad things and bad people, we would never do that, shame on them... etc' Followed by Romans 2 which basically goes 'But wait a second, What did Jesus ask us to do? Oh that's Right... Not To Judge!' Which I like to imagine is met by a 'Oh Paul, You clever rascal... You got me! I'll try and be more aware of that in the future' from the reader.
b) but even more importantly than that, is the language Paul uses... Because inevitably I get the 'But he still alluded to it being bad' Yes, but even if you take that route of twisting Paul's intent it still doesn't matter because what he is talking about is not what we know as Homosexuality. What we know as homosexuality would have been quite foreign to Paul, that is same sex loving relationships between two consenting adults. What Paul is talking about here is likely pederasty, or a more dominant kind of relationship between an adult and a child (or temple supported male prostitution). The word Paul uses here (Arsenokoitēs) is a fairly uncommon word in the Greek language that we can only really guess at the true meaning of... But given that there are other more common Greek words for same sex (ίδιου φ�λου), more encompassing terms, and given that how sex was talked about back then was generally framed in specific acts not all encompassing terms, why do we assume that the moment he decides to be quite specific with his wording (a word that is quite commonly translated as pederasty) that he is condemning an entire orientation as opposed to a particular act?
And if the argument from there becomes that they did not use language that way back then, then is it not a reasonable assumption that what we have now come to know as 'homosexuality' is not a concept that Paul would have been familiar with as if he had one would expect him to use similar language? (This paragraph here is a new addition to the argument, I haven't really fleshed that one out yet, feel free to help me develop that one too as I'm basically trying to guess at where the discussion would go from there if it didn't always end).
Anyways, it is around that point above when I start getting nice and exegetical, bringing up Greek translations and things of the sort that people tend to respond with the cold shoulder and end the conversation instead of continuing the discussion beyond there. I really want to know because the only reason my argument has developed to where it is is because people keep giving me counter points that I then go to research and return with how I might respond to said point through my lens of biblical understanding. Through discussion after discussion my points get fine tuned and honed in to say exactly what I want them to say... But now that I've got it to this point people just tend to disagree and that's the end of it... Nothing more to say... How do I respond to that? (which isn't actually the question I started with but another one I'd be curious to hear thoughts on none-the-less).
Why is it so hard to have a dialogue about homosexuality?
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Re: Why is it so hard to have a dialogue about homosexuality
Post #51[Replying to post 34 by HumbleDisciple]
I still think your views on God's judgment don't make sense. I started a thread on it in the main subform. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 436#671436
I still think your views on God's judgment don't make sense. I started a thread on it in the main subform. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 436#671436
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RottenHead
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Post #52
wow I am so proud of this thread. to the author: thank you so much for your words, I have heard more sense in this question you ask and the responses you provide than in any other debate of this topic.
I absolutely agree with your view of what was being spoken of in terms of the relationships between older men and younger boys. That is what I think was happening in Sodom and why these places were condemned by God. The cries of the children were heard by Almighty God.
Thank you for this post.
These are my thoughts on the topic and what I have posted on the subject over on the bible debate forum.
I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I trust my understanding of the true character of God and it doesn't support hatred or rejection of anyone for reasons like that. I didn't choose the way I am and I would die for my Lord. I know my heart is right and so there isn't a person on this earth that can tell me I am wrong or any of my brothers and sisters who had to face being outside the mainstream way of life are wrong just for the way their mind works.
I was trying to be with people that I loved but felt nothing for sexually, that is not what God intended. It is my belief that God intends us to live exactly what we are to the fullest and expressing what is beautiful inside us to the outside world. If God is Love then there is no hate or rejection in His plan. It just doesn't mix, the math is no good. There is only one way to see God, with the trust of your entire being that He loves you. If you can't do that then you have missed the bus completely in terms of understanding God. That is why I have no anger for anyone who talks sh*t about God or Christianity, they obviously don't get it! So don't be mad. These people are ultimately on their own path and they are actually thinking it's okay to yell in your face about how you are, that is going to explode in their faces and we don't need to fan the flames. Feel sorry for the people who judge you because they are asking to be judged.
Rest in the knowledge that you are who and what you are supposed to be and work to push it out with style.
I absolutely agree with your view of what was being spoken of in terms of the relationships between older men and younger boys. That is what I think was happening in Sodom and why these places were condemned by God. The cries of the children were heard by Almighty God.
Thank you for this post.
These are my thoughts on the topic and what I have posted on the subject over on the bible debate forum.
I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I trust my understanding of the true character of God and it doesn't support hatred or rejection of anyone for reasons like that. I didn't choose the way I am and I would die for my Lord. I know my heart is right and so there isn't a person on this earth that can tell me I am wrong or any of my brothers and sisters who had to face being outside the mainstream way of life are wrong just for the way their mind works.
I was trying to be with people that I loved but felt nothing for sexually, that is not what God intended. It is my belief that God intends us to live exactly what we are to the fullest and expressing what is beautiful inside us to the outside world. If God is Love then there is no hate or rejection in His plan. It just doesn't mix, the math is no good. There is only one way to see God, with the trust of your entire being that He loves you. If you can't do that then you have missed the bus completely in terms of understanding God. That is why I have no anger for anyone who talks sh*t about God or Christianity, they obviously don't get it! So don't be mad. These people are ultimately on their own path and they are actually thinking it's okay to yell in your face about how you are, that is going to explode in their faces and we don't need to fan the flames. Feel sorry for the people who judge you because they are asking to be judged.
Rest in the knowledge that you are who and what you are supposed to be and work to push it out with style.
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Eternity
Re: Why is it so hard to have a dialogue about homosexuality
Post #53[Replying to HumbleDisciple]
Post 2: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:22 pm Re: Why is it so hard to have a dialogue about homosexuality
[Replying to post 1 by cool_name123]
What I've placed in bold are your posting that I comment on.
What is in italics are my comments or quotes.
Hello, I am new, and may have an answer for you. Before I give you my answer, I would like you to know a few things about me, so that any potential prejudices can be swept away before anyone's minds exploded with prejudice.
I am a white male, liberal Christian (Isaiah 32 declares we should be liberal, if we intend to be ones who stand uprightly). I am pro-life, pro-gun. I believe homosexuality is *likely* a sin. I am fundamental, and take the Word of God at face value, and accept all that it declares.
So with that disclaimer, allow me to give you an answer that may be the best answer you have heard:
The reason you have a hard time getting to the bottom of discussions with people may be because of a hardness of heart in which they refuse to accept what scripture teaches because their heart does not wish to hear that homosexuals can be saved even if they remain homosexual, even in their practices, to the day they die.
That is a hardly reality for people to accept, and so they will do whatever they can, doctrinally, to deny that reality. They plain and simply do not wish to hear that such a thing could be true.
So, allow me to explain why I believe homosexuals, *if they truly believe in Jesus as their God and Saviour who rose from the dead*, are saved....even if they never repent....even if they continue in sin all the rest of their days.
What is the Gospel Message?
The Gospel Message is that man is weak, God is strong, and that His Grace is sufficient for our salvation no matter how great our sins...all paid for by the blood of Jesus at the cross.
Now, if a man, for example a Catholic, argues that good works are required, or that we must stop sinning....or for example a Protestant argues a man must repent...in order to see salvation....their doctrines are not found in scripture. Their doctrines are, in fact, heresy. But because God's Grace is always sufficient for those who believe in Jesus...He saves the Catholic, He saves the Protestant, He saves the heretic....not because of their doctrines, but in spite of their doctrinal errors.
The simple reality is that God's Grace extends much further beyond the bounds of any doctrines that any sect has ever constructed.
There is no scripture which states a man must repent as a requirement to be saved.
There is no scripture which states a man must have faith as a requirement to be saved.
There is no scripture which states a man must do good works to be saved.
There is no scripture which states a man must stop sinning to be saved.
These are all doctrines constructed by mankind when we read scripture which talks about repentance, or about good works, or about faith. But those scriptures, if you go back and look carefully, do *NOT* say that such things are requirements to obtain salvation.
Now, don't get me wrong....
Repentance is a good thing. Faith is a good thing. Good works is a good thing. Remission of sin is a good thing. And one who desires God would do well to seek such things.
But as far as God's Doctrine of Grace goes...well...here is the scriptures to prove it:
Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
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http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /rom10.pdf
What we have here is how the Christian faith has mistranslated, pistews, as faith. Christians have turned “belief� into “faith.� Faith has nothing to do with belief.
". . . which natural reason could never have known. Faith then gives us a sort of knowledge, for when we believe, our minds assent to something knowable; but not to something we see but to something he whom we believe sees. Faith falls short of understanding, for a mind that understands assents to what it itself sees in the light of the first premises of understanding." Summa Theologiae, A Concise Translation, Thomas Aquinas, Edited by Timothy McDermott, p. 29.
Two thousand years of Christianity and what was established in the beginning has everything to do with today's Christianity. So, todays Christian faith has everything to do with belief and they call that faith. This is an example of why the hardening of hearts of Christians perpetuates. The Gospel message has changed.
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
The “heart� here, says everything in regards to what the OT Law failed to relay to Israel and is still a stumbling block for Christians, even though, this is what Jesus taught.
* Blessed are the clean of heart,e for they will see God.
http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/5
“But it also refers to the spiritual center of life.� http://www.gotquestions.org/pure-in-heart.html
The pure of heart will see God, not because of their belief but because of their faith.
(Notice this is an explicit declaration of Salvation Doctrine, and no other requirements are added unto this).
By what reason?
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Notice it does not say saved by faith. Faith does not save. At least not our faith. The only faith that saves is God's faith towards us.)
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http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/eph2.pdf
Now you have mixed faith and grace. “ So the mind can be raised even higher by God's grace, . . .� Summa Theologiae, A Concise Translation, Thomas Aquinas, Edited by Timothy McDermott, p. 27.
And why?
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
If you understand 11:6 then you must agree with my points above. Faith is not belief and grace is not faith. Grace is God's gift to man and by 11:6 nothing that man does makes man eligible for Grace.
And why must it be this way?
1 Corinthians 1
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
And what is the proof of being able to discern who is saved by God and who is not saved by God?
1 Corinthians 12
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
So if a man willingly testifies Romans 10:9 as his pillar of belief....then you should always know that that particular man is a Christian and saved. [In the beginning you said,“His Grace is sufficient for our salvation� and here you say by a Christian you know that a man is saved. Which is it?] There are no exceptions [How is it that you listed all those exceptions?] to this, really. Some people argue "even the demons believe Jesus is who He is" as a counter-argument. But demons are not mankind. Its not a valid counter argument. [Valid? I agree, mythology is not valid as an argument, although, Christianity has taken Dante's Divine Comedy as defining purgatory, hell and heaven. Actually, “Dante's theology is Thomistic.� http://books.google.com/books?id=-AQTAA ... 22&cd=10 ]
[The first Adam (man) and the second Adam (Jesus) are like allegories. Not so bad of a thing as man's perceptions go.]
If a Mormon believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, a Mormon will be saved inspite of his church's false doctrines.
If a Catholic believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, a Catholic will be saved inspite of his church's false doctrines.
If a Calvinist believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, a Catholic will be saved inspite of his church's false doctrines.
If an Arminianist believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, the Arminianist will be saved inspite of his false doctrines.
If a Muslim believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, a Muslim will be saved inspite of his religion's false doctrines.
Even if they never stop naming themselves as Mormons, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianists, Muslims, etc.
Even if they never stop believing in the doctrines of those sects.
There is a scripture which proves all these things, and names only one exception:
Mark 3
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
Here is where you must merge the two words, “Holy Ghost� and “spirit.� Both words comes from the Greek word, pneuma. 29, interpreted as “Holy Ghost� and 30 as “spirit� and yet are the same words in Greek. What is important here is to understand that, and given what you have already said, that everyone, no matter what their faith is saved by the Grace of God. If you believe that the first Adam (mankind) had a clean spirit then Jesus did also, as does all mankind. The “unclean spirit� then is not a blaspheme against the third person of the Trinity (doctrine) but of man rejecting what is “pure of heart.�
In the end of Creation, all returns to God or as it was, nothing.
Thus, the one person you do not want to be...is the person that says "XYZ person is not a Christian" after they have already declared their belief in Romans 10:9 wholeheartedly.
Just because one declares they are a Christian does not mean that they necessarily are pure of heart. Of 30,000 denominations (not churches) which one do you believe in? Something within each denomination is a different belief. My point is that Christianity has gone so far left of the original message that neither fundamental or orthodox, mainline Protestant or Catholic has retained the true Gospel.
I have demonstrated, debated the simplest of teaching regarding faith and belief. I have quoted Greek to show the difference. I have quoted Thomas Aquinas. I could go on to quote Paul Tillich and others that have been critical of Tillich to show that it is not just those that I've already mentioned that would disagree with your interpretation of faith and belief.
Unfortunately, many people do this. They do this against other sects, and they do this against other sinners because of their type of sin.
Unfortunately, all too many read the Bible literally and never go beyond their interpretation of that literal reading. Every word read must be understood from the perspective of what the author meant it to say. Only a critical reading will return the original meaning. As Creation continues so does man's interpretation of God's Word (and I am not saying that the Bible is God's Word.)
Homosexuals have it particularly hard because so many sects teach homosexuals cannot be saved if they remain in their sin. There is no scripture which declares this.
You stated that you were a fundamentalist and said that you believed that, homosexuality was a sin. If I continued to address this issue of sin and homosexuality I would show you that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as a sin. First of all, homosexuality and sin are not synonymous. Simply, sex is not sin and sin is not sex. More to the point, sin is singular and therefore there is only one sin in the Bible, idolatry. Which then, is the message brought forth in the OT and the NT but that is not to say that homosexuality was the sin of idolatry. The key word in the OT, abomination, is used interchangeably with, abhorrence where, abhorrence is translated from, “תּ.עֵ בָ ה, thuobe. ( http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /lev18.pdf ) Take the dictionary definition of, abhorrence, “a feeling of repulsion; disgusted loathing.� and you get a whole other understanding of the translation, abomination.
(There is scripture which says there are many homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, and those who deal in magic and pharmacology who will be in Hell...but it does not declare that *all* [apply your point about “all� to Genesis 19: 4;
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who are guilty of those sins go to Hell. It just simply declares there are many who do end up there. [Not as simple as that. The simplicity of what Scripture says has everything to do with those that are pure in heart. And, not as you seem to suggest that, belief is the Christian's salvation.]Reasoning therefore suggests that many end up not believing in Jesus. But those who believe in Jesus will be saved. Scripture also declares there are indeed judgments against those of us who live in sin. But it does not declare those judgments to be a stripping of salvation. People have misinterpreted those scriptures and argued they say things that they do not say. In essence, they have added and taken away from the Word of God in order to convince themselves of their own convictions [of their own gods] against others. In so doing...they have lost their ability to feel Grace. They are still under God's Grace, but they are unable to perceive it.)
So how should we treat homosexuality?
Well, within the full context of the Bible.
1) We should not be harsh towards them, nor deny them of their belief in Jesus.
2) We should not demand repentance in order to obtain salvation, for such a thing is false doctrine.
3) We should remind them that repentance is good, whether it be of their homosexual nature, or of other sins...[Again, you associate sin and homosexuality. What you have done here is convince others of your own convictions.] whatever they are able to do...they should do it. And whatever they are not able to do...they are forgiven under His Grace.
4) We should remember that scripture says "It is not good for man to be alone" and we should treat their testimony with respect, assuming that what they say in their heart is true: Namely...that they were born gay. Scripture *does* actually declare that God makes us all the way we all are, each to our own faults and weaknesses. One is born gay, while another is born full of pride. One is born an adulterer, while another is born a drunk. And all are forgiven, even if they do not believe in Jesus (but not all who are forgiven....are saved. For salvation depends upon their belief in Jesus).
You cannot say that homosexuality is a disorder anymore than you can say that it is a sin. Your comparison is unsubstantiated.
Matthew 12:31 proves that all sins are forgiven, even of those who deny Jesus. But though all of mankind's sins are forgiven, we are all still appointed to die once. And anyone who dies...needs a resurrection. And the only way to obtain resurrection is belief in Jesus. Thus, all mankind and the entire world is forgiven...but not all is saved, for many deny Jesus inspite of being forgiven.
Denying Jesus is not what 12:31 says.
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31 says, spirit. I present that the spirit (life, existence) is what the first Adam (mankind) was created as, in the image of God and that Jesus was making that image apparent to mankind. Again, the Trinity is a doctrine not something that the Bible directly spoke about. Jesus as the Christ (Tillich) is not the same as Jesus Christ.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
Again, the translation, “UP-STANDing,� has been interpreted as resurrection. Look, it is quite apparent to me that the NT is the making of Christianity. Some see the NT as God's Word but I see the NT as the making of a new religion. Jesus as the Christ is, was the making of a divine being, man. That in itself was determined at the Council of Nicaea, A.D. 325.
So...in conclusion, if a homosexual believes in Jesus, he will be saved. This will not change, it is certain and without doubt. It will glorify God. It will shame mankind (both the homosexual, for his sins....as well as those who rose up against him with their doctrines).
You have failed to show reasonable debate in regards to several issues in the above paragraph. If you mean to say that all mankind are without sin then what you seem to say is misleading.
What about gay marriage? Should it be legal or illegal?
The answer to that can also be found in scripture. In short, gay marriage *most certainly* should be legal.Â
Why?
2 main scriptures answer this:
First scripture:
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
The problem here, as with this posting, is that anybody can say what those powers to be are.
What is the highest source of authority in the U.S.?
Our Constitution.
And what does it declare?
Liberty and Justice for All.
And by which means do we make laws?
In a manner that maximizes liberty and justice for all, where the laws impede man's freedom where he attempts to use and abuse it to the harm of others. Namely, protection of person, and protection of property.
If two people willingly consent to marrying each other (regardless of whether God recognizes it) [Marriage, is not biblical. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that marriage is a precept of God. And for that matter, words, marriage, wife, husband are not of the ancient Hebrew language. Where the modern translations say wife the correct translation says, woman. Where marriage is used in the NT (modern version) the Greek word is, “gamEsE�, “SHOULD-BE-MARRYING� ( http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /mat19.pdf ), and if you look up the Greek definition of the word, gamos ( I believe gamos is the root of gamEsE), it means to have intercourse. This fits every passage of the Bible that speaks of marriage. Sex in the OT means that you were obligated to the woman. Men could be promiscuous but not woman. And, what we call marriage was at the very most, a legal contract defining property. Women were property. There was no sense of love as we know it. It wasn't until Medieval times that romance even entered man's idea of a relationship. Not that it never existed, as in the Song of Solomon but even there, the Song spoke of premarital sex.]
...are they harming the one they consent to, or their property?
No.
Therefore, there should be no law against it. Even if God does not recognize the marriage on a spiritual level. Even if it is immoral.
I've already stated that there is no precept of God in the Bible that speaks of marriage.
Remember...the Constitution is not there to protect moral laws. It is there to protect personal liberty.
There are no definition of morality in the Bible. Moral laws as in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, yes and, one should pay close attention to those laws understanding what it is that is being said. Those laws were meant to show the “pure in heart.� So much for those laws. So Christianity has Jesus abolishing the Law.
If my moral standards interfere with your personal liberty...then I am violating the Constitution, and thus I am violating Romans 13.
Second scripture:
Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife [woman]for every cause?
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http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /mat19.pdf
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain [two] shall be one flesh?
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Is this not the description of a pregnancy? The act of intercourse? Considering that the interpretation is marriage it also becomes a doctrine no different than the OT symbolism of a marriage between God and Israel. The use of marriage is an interpretation that has gone wrong.
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
There is a very significant truth in this passage that many overlook, or refuse to adhere to: Jesus is stating that divorce, in all cases except prior to consummation, is immoral . (It is even immoral to divorce in cases of adultery. People misinterpret that passage, for it states one can divorce in cases of fornication, [I am not so sure I understand you usage of fornication here. I suggest that you research biblically what fornication means. I can do this for you but I think it is time that you seek the truth much as I have already shown you your errors.] not adultery. Those who have consummated their marriage already....cannot commit fornication. They can only commit adultery. Therefore...the passage is speaking about something different than people think.). There is literally no exception allowed for divorce once a marriage is consummated. Yet Moses allowed divorce in a variety of reasons. He did not allow it "because it was moral or justified." Jesus is plain and clear: Moses allowed divorce "because of the hardness of their hearts."
In simple terms: Moses made an immoral act legal. [Much the same way Christiainty has done regarding homsexuality and so many other things now holy doctrine.] He allowed an immoral divorce to occur. And Jesus defended this position, not because the immoral act was good...but because of Grace and personal liberty. [Grace, capitalized means of God or, simply, God. Not sure how you mean using “personal liberty. Are you referring to the US Constitution or, guessing, original sin?]
Therefore, we ought to do the same with our justice system. The hearts of homosexuals may be hard, but we should allow them to pursue their happiness and freedoms.
This is what Grace is all about.
Grace is of God not the other way around.
Now, many people will create arguments against the things I have said here...suggesting that I have misinterpreted scripture. But scripture is very clear and explicit that Grace does indeed go *that far*.
Not if you say just so.
John 12
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Please know, if you have any concerns about how this may conflict with other scriptures, you may post those scriptures and ask how my position works with those scriptures.
My ultimate goal is to find how all scripture works together without it contradicting each other. Many people will claim scripture does not contradict itself, and yet they hold to doctrines that, if the doctrine were true...would lead to scripture contradicting itself.
If you find what I have said seems to contradict other scriptures (I know of many where it can appear that way, example James 2.) Then please ask. I am here to provide.
In summary, people do not want to believe that God's Grace extends to certain groups of people.
But it most certainly does.
God Bless
Okay, other than what I consider as mistranslations and therefore misleads the true teaching, I find what you have said regarding the spirit of man to be more on than what I've corrected you on. So, well said, at least your spirit is where your heart is supposed to be.
Post 2: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:22 pm Re: Why is it so hard to have a dialogue about homosexuality
[Replying to post 1 by cool_name123]
What I've placed in bold are your posting that I comment on.
What is in italics are my comments or quotes.
Hello, I am new, and may have an answer for you. Before I give you my answer, I would like you to know a few things about me, so that any potential prejudices can be swept away before anyone's minds exploded with prejudice.
I am a white male, liberal Christian (Isaiah 32 declares we should be liberal, if we intend to be ones who stand uprightly). I am pro-life, pro-gun. I believe homosexuality is *likely* a sin. I am fundamental, and take the Word of God at face value, and accept all that it declares.
So with that disclaimer, allow me to give you an answer that may be the best answer you have heard:
The reason you have a hard time getting to the bottom of discussions with people may be because of a hardness of heart in which they refuse to accept what scripture teaches because their heart does not wish to hear that homosexuals can be saved even if they remain homosexual, even in their practices, to the day they die.
That is a hardly reality for people to accept, and so they will do whatever they can, doctrinally, to deny that reality. They plain and simply do not wish to hear that such a thing could be true.
So, allow me to explain why I believe homosexuals, *if they truly believe in Jesus as their God and Saviour who rose from the dead*, are saved....even if they never repent....even if they continue in sin all the rest of their days.
What is the Gospel Message?
The Gospel Message is that man is weak, God is strong, and that His Grace is sufficient for our salvation no matter how great our sins...all paid for by the blood of Jesus at the cross.
Now, if a man, for example a Catholic, argues that good works are required, or that we must stop sinning....or for example a Protestant argues a man must repent...in order to see salvation....their doctrines are not found in scripture. Their doctrines are, in fact, heresy. But because God's Grace is always sufficient for those who believe in Jesus...He saves the Catholic, He saves the Protestant, He saves the heretic....not because of their doctrines, but in spite of their doctrinal errors.
The simple reality is that God's Grace extends much further beyond the bounds of any doctrines that any sect has ever constructed.
There is no scripture which states a man must repent as a requirement to be saved.
There is no scripture which states a man must have faith as a requirement to be saved.
There is no scripture which states a man must do good works to be saved.
There is no scripture which states a man must stop sinning to be saved.
These are all doctrines constructed by mankind when we read scripture which talks about repentance, or about good works, or about faith. But those scriptures, if you go back and look carefully, do *NOT* say that such things are requirements to obtain salvation.
Now, don't get me wrong....
Repentance is a good thing. Faith is a good thing. Good works is a good thing. Remission of sin is a good thing. And one who desires God would do well to seek such things.
But as far as God's Doctrine of Grace goes...well...here is the scriptures to prove it:
Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
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http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /rom10.pdf
What we have here is how the Christian faith has mistranslated, pistews, as faith. Christians have turned “belief� into “faith.� Faith has nothing to do with belief.
". . . which natural reason could never have known. Faith then gives us a sort of knowledge, for when we believe, our minds assent to something knowable; but not to something we see but to something he whom we believe sees. Faith falls short of understanding, for a mind that understands assents to what it itself sees in the light of the first premises of understanding." Summa Theologiae, A Concise Translation, Thomas Aquinas, Edited by Timothy McDermott, p. 29.
Two thousand years of Christianity and what was established in the beginning has everything to do with today's Christianity. So, todays Christian faith has everything to do with belief and they call that faith. This is an example of why the hardening of hearts of Christians perpetuates. The Gospel message has changed.
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
The “heart� here, says everything in regards to what the OT Law failed to relay to Israel and is still a stumbling block for Christians, even though, this is what Jesus taught.
* Blessed are the clean of heart,e for they will see God.
http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/5
“But it also refers to the spiritual center of life.� http://www.gotquestions.org/pure-in-heart.html
The pure of heart will see God, not because of their belief but because of their faith.
(Notice this is an explicit declaration of Salvation Doctrine, and no other requirements are added unto this).
By what reason?
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Notice it does not say saved by faith. Faith does not save. At least not our faith. The only faith that saves is God's faith towards us.)
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http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/eph2.pdf
Now you have mixed faith and grace. “ So the mind can be raised even higher by God's grace, . . .� Summa Theologiae, A Concise Translation, Thomas Aquinas, Edited by Timothy McDermott, p. 27.
And why?
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
If you understand 11:6 then you must agree with my points above. Faith is not belief and grace is not faith. Grace is God's gift to man and by 11:6 nothing that man does makes man eligible for Grace.
And why must it be this way?
1 Corinthians 1
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
And what is the proof of being able to discern who is saved by God and who is not saved by God?
1 Corinthians 12
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
So if a man willingly testifies Romans 10:9 as his pillar of belief....then you should always know that that particular man is a Christian and saved. [In the beginning you said,“His Grace is sufficient for our salvation� and here you say by a Christian you know that a man is saved. Which is it?] There are no exceptions [How is it that you listed all those exceptions?] to this, really. Some people argue "even the demons believe Jesus is who He is" as a counter-argument. But demons are not mankind. Its not a valid counter argument. [Valid? I agree, mythology is not valid as an argument, although, Christianity has taken Dante's Divine Comedy as defining purgatory, hell and heaven. Actually, “Dante's theology is Thomistic.� http://books.google.com/books?id=-AQTAA ... 22&cd=10 ]
[The first Adam (man) and the second Adam (Jesus) are like allegories. Not so bad of a thing as man's perceptions go.]
If a Mormon believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, a Mormon will be saved inspite of his church's false doctrines.
If a Catholic believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, a Catholic will be saved inspite of his church's false doctrines.
If a Calvinist believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, a Catholic will be saved inspite of his church's false doctrines.
If an Arminianist believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, the Arminianist will be saved inspite of his false doctrines.
If a Muslim believes Jesus is God and Saviour who rose from the dead, a Muslim will be saved inspite of his religion's false doctrines.
Even if they never stop naming themselves as Mormons, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianists, Muslims, etc.
Even if they never stop believing in the doctrines of those sects.
There is a scripture which proves all these things, and names only one exception:
Mark 3
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
Here is where you must merge the two words, “Holy Ghost� and “spirit.� Both words comes from the Greek word, pneuma. 29, interpreted as “Holy Ghost� and 30 as “spirit� and yet are the same words in Greek. What is important here is to understand that, and given what you have already said, that everyone, no matter what their faith is saved by the Grace of God. If you believe that the first Adam (mankind) had a clean spirit then Jesus did also, as does all mankind. The “unclean spirit� then is not a blaspheme against the third person of the Trinity (doctrine) but of man rejecting what is “pure of heart.�
In the end of Creation, all returns to God or as it was, nothing.
Thus, the one person you do not want to be...is the person that says "XYZ person is not a Christian" after they have already declared their belief in Romans 10:9 wholeheartedly.
Just because one declares they are a Christian does not mean that they necessarily are pure of heart. Of 30,000 denominations (not churches) which one do you believe in? Something within each denomination is a different belief. My point is that Christianity has gone so far left of the original message that neither fundamental or orthodox, mainline Protestant or Catholic has retained the true Gospel.
I have demonstrated, debated the simplest of teaching regarding faith and belief. I have quoted Greek to show the difference. I have quoted Thomas Aquinas. I could go on to quote Paul Tillich and others that have been critical of Tillich to show that it is not just those that I've already mentioned that would disagree with your interpretation of faith and belief.
Unfortunately, many people do this. They do this against other sects, and they do this against other sinners because of their type of sin.
Unfortunately, all too many read the Bible literally and never go beyond their interpretation of that literal reading. Every word read must be understood from the perspective of what the author meant it to say. Only a critical reading will return the original meaning. As Creation continues so does man's interpretation of God's Word (and I am not saying that the Bible is God's Word.)
Homosexuals have it particularly hard because so many sects teach homosexuals cannot be saved if they remain in their sin. There is no scripture which declares this.
You stated that you were a fundamentalist and said that you believed that, homosexuality was a sin. If I continued to address this issue of sin and homosexuality I would show you that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as a sin. First of all, homosexuality and sin are not synonymous. Simply, sex is not sin and sin is not sex. More to the point, sin is singular and therefore there is only one sin in the Bible, idolatry. Which then, is the message brought forth in the OT and the NT but that is not to say that homosexuality was the sin of idolatry. The key word in the OT, abomination, is used interchangeably with, abhorrence where, abhorrence is translated from, “תּ.עֵ בָ ה, thuobe. ( http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /lev18.pdf ) Take the dictionary definition of, abhorrence, “a feeling of repulsion; disgusted loathing.� and you get a whole other understanding of the translation, abomination.
(There is scripture which says there are many homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, and those who deal in magic and pharmacology who will be in Hell...but it does not declare that *all* [apply your point about “all� to Genesis 19: 4;
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who are guilty of those sins go to Hell. It just simply declares there are many who do end up there. [Not as simple as that. The simplicity of what Scripture says has everything to do with those that are pure in heart. And, not as you seem to suggest that, belief is the Christian's salvation.]Reasoning therefore suggests that many end up not believing in Jesus. But those who believe in Jesus will be saved. Scripture also declares there are indeed judgments against those of us who live in sin. But it does not declare those judgments to be a stripping of salvation. People have misinterpreted those scriptures and argued they say things that they do not say. In essence, they have added and taken away from the Word of God in order to convince themselves of their own convictions [of their own gods] against others. In so doing...they have lost their ability to feel Grace. They are still under God's Grace, but they are unable to perceive it.)
So how should we treat homosexuality?
Well, within the full context of the Bible.
1) We should not be harsh towards them, nor deny them of their belief in Jesus.
2) We should not demand repentance in order to obtain salvation, for such a thing is false doctrine.
3) We should remind them that repentance is good, whether it be of their homosexual nature, or of other sins...[Again, you associate sin and homosexuality. What you have done here is convince others of your own convictions.] whatever they are able to do...they should do it. And whatever they are not able to do...they are forgiven under His Grace.
4) We should remember that scripture says "It is not good for man to be alone" and we should treat their testimony with respect, assuming that what they say in their heart is true: Namely...that they were born gay. Scripture *does* actually declare that God makes us all the way we all are, each to our own faults and weaknesses. One is born gay, while another is born full of pride. One is born an adulterer, while another is born a drunk. And all are forgiven, even if they do not believe in Jesus (but not all who are forgiven....are saved. For salvation depends upon their belief in Jesus).
You cannot say that homosexuality is a disorder anymore than you can say that it is a sin. Your comparison is unsubstantiated.
Matthew 12:31 proves that all sins are forgiven, even of those who deny Jesus. But though all of mankind's sins are forgiven, we are all still appointed to die once. And anyone who dies...needs a resurrection. And the only way to obtain resurrection is belief in Jesus. Thus, all mankind and the entire world is forgiven...but not all is saved, for many deny Jesus inspite of being forgiven.
Denying Jesus is not what 12:31 says.
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spirit
31 says, spirit. I present that the spirit (life, existence) is what the first Adam (mankind) was created as, in the image of God and that Jesus was making that image apparent to mankind. Again, the Trinity is a doctrine not something that the Bible directly spoke about. Jesus as the Christ (Tillich) is not the same as Jesus Christ.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
Again, the translation, “UP-STANDing,� has been interpreted as resurrection. Look, it is quite apparent to me that the NT is the making of Christianity. Some see the NT as God's Word but I see the NT as the making of a new religion. Jesus as the Christ is, was the making of a divine being, man. That in itself was determined at the Council of Nicaea, A.D. 325.
So...in conclusion, if a homosexual believes in Jesus, he will be saved. This will not change, it is certain and without doubt. It will glorify God. It will shame mankind (both the homosexual, for his sins....as well as those who rose up against him with their doctrines).
You have failed to show reasonable debate in regards to several issues in the above paragraph. If you mean to say that all mankind are without sin then what you seem to say is misleading.
What about gay marriage? Should it be legal or illegal?
The answer to that can also be found in scripture. In short, gay marriage *most certainly* should be legal.Â
Why?
2 main scriptures answer this:
First scripture:
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
The problem here, as with this posting, is that anybody can say what those powers to be are.
What is the highest source of authority in the U.S.?
Our Constitution.
And what does it declare?
Liberty and Justice for All.
And by which means do we make laws?
In a manner that maximizes liberty and justice for all, where the laws impede man's freedom where he attempts to use and abuse it to the harm of others. Namely, protection of person, and protection of property.
If two people willingly consent to marrying each other (regardless of whether God recognizes it) [Marriage, is not biblical. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that marriage is a precept of God. And for that matter, words, marriage, wife, husband are not of the ancient Hebrew language. Where the modern translations say wife the correct translation says, woman. Where marriage is used in the NT (modern version) the Greek word is, “gamEsE�, “SHOULD-BE-MARRYING� ( http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /mat19.pdf ), and if you look up the Greek definition of the word, gamos ( I believe gamos is the root of gamEsE), it means to have intercourse. This fits every passage of the Bible that speaks of marriage. Sex in the OT means that you were obligated to the woman. Men could be promiscuous but not woman. And, what we call marriage was at the very most, a legal contract defining property. Women were property. There was no sense of love as we know it. It wasn't until Medieval times that romance even entered man's idea of a relationship. Not that it never existed, as in the Song of Solomon but even there, the Song spoke of premarital sex.]
...are they harming the one they consent to, or their property?
No.
Therefore, there should be no law against it. Even if God does not recognize the marriage on a spiritual level. Even if it is immoral.
I've already stated that there is no precept of God in the Bible that speaks of marriage.
Remember...the Constitution is not there to protect moral laws. It is there to protect personal liberty.
There are no definition of morality in the Bible. Moral laws as in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, yes and, one should pay close attention to those laws understanding what it is that is being said. Those laws were meant to show the “pure in heart.� So much for those laws. So Christianity has Jesus abolishing the Law.
If my moral standards interfere with your personal liberty...then I am violating the Constitution, and thus I am violating Romans 13.
Second scripture:
Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife [woman]for every cause?
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wife
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /mat19.pdf
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain [two] shall be one flesh?
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Is this not the description of a pregnancy? The act of intercourse? Considering that the interpretation is marriage it also becomes a doctrine no different than the OT symbolism of a marriage between God and Israel. The use of marriage is an interpretation that has gone wrong.
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
There is a very significant truth in this passage that many overlook, or refuse to adhere to: Jesus is stating that divorce, in all cases except prior to consummation, is immoral . (It is even immoral to divorce in cases of adultery. People misinterpret that passage, for it states one can divorce in cases of fornication, [I am not so sure I understand you usage of fornication here. I suggest that you research biblically what fornication means. I can do this for you but I think it is time that you seek the truth much as I have already shown you your errors.] not adultery. Those who have consummated their marriage already....cannot commit fornication. They can only commit adultery. Therefore...the passage is speaking about something different than people think.). There is literally no exception allowed for divorce once a marriage is consummated. Yet Moses allowed divorce in a variety of reasons. He did not allow it "because it was moral or justified." Jesus is plain and clear: Moses allowed divorce "because of the hardness of their hearts."
In simple terms: Moses made an immoral act legal. [Much the same way Christiainty has done regarding homsexuality and so many other things now holy doctrine.] He allowed an immoral divorce to occur. And Jesus defended this position, not because the immoral act was good...but because of Grace and personal liberty. [Grace, capitalized means of God or, simply, God. Not sure how you mean using “personal liberty. Are you referring to the US Constitution or, guessing, original sin?]
Therefore, we ought to do the same with our justice system. The hearts of homosexuals may be hard, but we should allow them to pursue their happiness and freedoms.
This is what Grace is all about.
Grace is of God not the other way around.
Now, many people will create arguments against the things I have said here...suggesting that I have misinterpreted scripture. But scripture is very clear and explicit that Grace does indeed go *that far*.
Not if you say just so.
John 12
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Please know, if you have any concerns about how this may conflict with other scriptures, you may post those scriptures and ask how my position works with those scriptures.
My ultimate goal is to find how all scripture works together without it contradicting each other. Many people will claim scripture does not contradict itself, and yet they hold to doctrines that, if the doctrine were true...would lead to scripture contradicting itself.
If you find what I have said seems to contradict other scriptures (I know of many where it can appear that way, example James 2.) Then please ask. I am here to provide.
In summary, people do not want to believe that God's Grace extends to certain groups of people.
But it most certainly does.
God Bless
Okay, other than what I consider as mistranslations and therefore misleads the true teaching, I find what you have said regarding the spirit of man to be more on than what I've corrected you on. So, well said, at least your spirit is where your heart is supposed to be.
