Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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DanieltheDragon
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Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #1

Post by DanieltheDragon »

I have read the bible up and down left and right. There are lots of things about abominations etc etc. What it doesn't say though is whether or not non-believers can have gay marriage. In fact the laws and commandments in the bible are specifically for the Jews. Jesus opened that up and through Paul's doctrine that became inclusive of the gentiles(those who were believers).


So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Can anyone find a verse saying that non-believers cannot have gay marriage?

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #71

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 67 by RightReason]
Uuum . . . sorry that makes no sense. I have argued homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered – a direct appeal to absolute truth.
You might have thought you argued that but you only tried to argue about anal penetration. Which also was an incomplete argument since you failed to include observations that show that biological climax can be acheived via anal penetration which would indicate an adaptation incorporating sexual intercourse into the anal region. Hence, it is natural to have anal intercourse. This of course also excludes any psychological benefits that people attain via climax as well as physiological benefits such as reduced stress blood pressure etc.

I would say your argument needs more work as it is to niche to actually even be applied against homosexuality as more heterosexuals have anal intercourse than homosexuals.
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #72

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to Bust Nak]
I know, but what if what you think is the absolute truth, isn't the absolute truth? Have you considered that?
Of course I’ve considered that, but the logic based on what we can know makes it clear. The order/design/form/shape/function that we observe in this world tells us what is right/good – what makes sense. That which is contrary to this natural order is disordered or wrong.
All you have demonstrated is that they are atypical.
Tomata – tomato. It doesn’t take a genius to know that the act of eating and then vomiting up food is not the proper order. Atypical? Yes. And wrong. Is declaring it wrong making a judgment? Sure, but a reasoned and scientific one. The behavior is out of order/problematic, and not in man’s best interest. It is improper use of the body. Is it self righteous to declare it improper? No, it is reasonable – a recognition of what we know about the world we live in. It is also wise and sympathetic – desiring that which is best for man, speaking and upholding truth, and wanting to help. No one is calling a bulimic evil, but it would be dishonest to support or encourage their improper/atypical behavior.




I think you'll find that homosexual acts are declared immoral after the rise of Abrahamic religions.
Nope. Even pagans – the Greeks and the Romans did not recognize homosexual unions to be something acknowledged by the state.

But that is not the same thing as what is moral. You are running foul of equivocation fallacy again.
Whether something is being used for its intended purpose or correctly or properly is in fact part of how we determine what is right/good vs. wrong/bad. Again, we can know bulimia is wrong/bad because the behavior is not ordered based on what we know about how the body works/functions.

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #73

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 70 by DanieltheDragon]
Quote:
asked and answered. All men can know right/wrong/good/bad via observation of man and man’s relationship with the world we live in via reason and logic. We can observe how the world works, accept and acknowledge the science/biology/order/design and recognize what makes sense.


Flaws:
A.) All humans can know right&wrong
1. Not all humans have the same cognitive ability
2. Not all humans have empathy(some forms of autism and anti-social disorders)
You aren’t seriously arguing this? Of course there exist the rare psychopath who appears to not know right from wrong. This does not negate that right and wrong exist and something the reasonable man can know. It is intellectually dishonest to suggest otherwise. And if a human being lacks empathy or conscience, there is in fact something wrong with them and if their minds were working correctly, they would know what most can know. Until then, they need our help. It doesn’t mean we dismiss truth.
B.) we can observe how the world works
1. People share different perspectives and will observe and reach different conclusions
2. People have different environmental life experiences
3. Sociological behaviors vary from region to region what one might observe in one area could be totally different in another.
Actually social science shows universal truths. All societies in all times value friendship, loyalty, etc. We of course have different tastes/preferences, but all individuals for example agree rape is wrong.
C.) order/design

1. Nature is not ordered or designed therefore there is no design or order to observe. Any claims in this regard are mere projection.
I’m not asking you to give God credit, but no one can deny the world works in a certain way. You can call it whatever you like – makes no difference to me, but you do have to acknowledge it.

My question to you is what happens when two people of equal intelligence observe how the world works and reach different conclusions on morality?

Is this indicative of natural law?
Like what? Can you give an example?

People differ all the time on what they might think is true or not, it doesn’t mean truth does not exist. It might simply mean some people are getting it wrong (there are several things that can block or prevent a person from recognizing truth).



You might have thought you argued that but you only tried to argue about anal penetration. Which also was an incomplete argument since you failed to include observations that show that biological climax can be acheived via anal penetration which would indicate an adaptation incorporating sexual intercourse into the anal region. Hence, it is natural to have anal intercourse. This of course also excludes any psychological benefits that people attain via climax as well as physiological benefits such as reduced stress blood pressure etc.
I already corrected the problems with your argument. Natural Law does not simply mean that which is natural or observed in nature. Again, a human being can achieve pleasure by screwing a chimp – that does not mean he should. Also, my example of anal sex was simply a quick reference for argumentative purposes and of course is incomplete in the entire argument showing the wrongness of homosexual acts. There are many other observations and scientific facts that demonstrate this wrongness as well. I was merely using one example for argumentative purposes. There are studies showing the importance of a child being raised by both a mother and a father and this isn’t a single parent vs. “couple� household. The studies show the importance of having two sexes raise a child. Again, this is yet one more demonstration from nature pointing to the wrongness of same sex unions.
I would say your argument needs more work as it is to niche to actually even be applied against homosexuality as more heterosexuals have anal intercourse than homosexuals.
First, I question your stat. Second, I would say your argument needs a little work -- if more people lied than told the truth does that mean lying is good?

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #74

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 72 by RightReason]

The most current sociological data does not support your assertion that children of gay parents fare worse.

http://whatweknow.law.columbia.edu/topi ... n-parents/

Of 79 articles regarding same sex parents only 4 studies were outliers. 75 concluded children of same sex parents fared no worse than hetero. Some studies have even shown that children of same sex parents may even have advantages. Specifically because in order for a same sex couple to have a child considerable timing, planning and money is involved either to conceive or adopt. Whereas in hetero relationships many children are not planned.
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #75

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 72 by RightReason]
First, I question your stat. Second, I would say your argument needs a little work -- if more people lied than told the truth does that mean lying is good?
It doesn't need a little work. You misunderstand. The argument isn't more hetero people have anal sex than gay people therefore it's good. The argument is more hetero people have anal sex than gay people therefore anal sex is a misleading argument to use for the immorality of gay people as many gay people do not have anal sex.

There is no need to question the stat it's simple math.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf

If 44% of men claim to have had anal sex with an opposite sex partner and only 5.8% of males have had same sex encounters it stands to reason there are a lot more men having anal sex with women than other men. Additionally 12.8% of women report on having same sex encounters. Hypothetically if we have 100 women and 100 men our gay population would be about 12 women and 5 men. Let's say all the gay men have anal sex and none of the women that would be a rate of about 29% of the gay population has anal sex.
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #76

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 72 by RightReason]
I’m not asking you to give God credit, but no one can deny the world works in a certain way. You can call it whatever you like – makes no difference to me, but you do have to acknowledge it.
I didn't invoke god I merely said conceptions of order or design are projections of our pattern making brains. I don't have to acknowledge it either. I refuse to acknowledge the projections of another person. In terms of no one can deny, I just did.
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #77

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 72 by RightReason]
Like what? Can you give an example
Sure vaccination. I view it as immoral to not vaccinate yourself or your children as you increase the risk of becoming a disease vector and harming other people. Other people specifically anti vaxxers believe that it is a violation of their freedom to make them take vaccinations.
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #78

Post by Bust Nak »

RightReason wrote: Of course I’ve considered that, but the logic based on what we can know makes it clear. The order/design/form/shape/function that we observe in this world tells us what is right/good – what makes sense. That which is contrary to this natural order is disordered or wrong.
But not necessarily immoral.
Tomata – tomato. It doesn’t take a genius to know that the act of eating and then vomiting up food is not the proper order. Atypical? Yes. And wrong. Is declaring it wrong making a judgment? Sure, but a reasoned and scientific one... No one is calling a bulimic evil, but it would be dishonest to support or encourage their improper/atypical behavior.
That's the point: no one is calling a bulimic evil, but when it comes to homosexuality, it is being called evil, and it is this inconsistency that makes the reasoning illogical.
Nope. Even pagans – the Greeks and the Romans did not recognize homosexual unions to be something acknowledged by the state.
a) Homosexual unions not recognised by the state is a decidedly weaker claim than homosexual acts being declared immoral. Are you abandoning your original claim?

b) While marriage was restricted between man and women in ancient Greece, the Romans had exceptions, most notably, the emperor Nero married a man. Besides, same sex marriage, i.e. not just homosexual acts, was practiced in ancient Egypt and China. And that's just the ones I know, maybe there are others.
Whether something is being used for its intended purpose or correctly or properly is in fact part of how we determine what is right/good vs. wrong/bad. Again, we can know bulimia is wrong/bad because the behavior is not ordered based on what we know about how the body works/functions.
But that moot since you've already conceded that bulimia is not immoral.

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #79

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]
Ihe most current sociological data does not support your assertion that children of gay parents fare worse.
Your comment proves you hear what you want to hear. I did not say that. I was referring to studies like those showing different genders have different effects on children. One study showed girls who grew up with a father in the house started their periods later than girls who grew up without a father in the household. Studies like this show how there are differences between the sexes and those differences can have a physical impact on our children. It is fascinating really when many attempt to make the genders interchangeable.

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #80

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 74 by DanieltheDragon]
The argument isn't more hetero people have anal sex than gay people therefore it's good. The argument is more hetero people have anal sex than gay people therefore anal sex is a misleading argument to use for the immorality of gay people as many gay people do not have anal sex.
<sigh> the immorality of anal sex is the same whether gay or straight people engage in the behavior. And it is your statistics that are misleading. There are more heterosexuals in the world, so your statistics are meaningless. The science shows over 90% of gay men engage in anal sex. This means the if you are a gay man in a relationship it would be a safe bet to suggest you are engaging in anal sex. If you can find me a study showing over 90% of heterosexual couples engage in anal sex, I would be interested in seeing that.

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