Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

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DanieltheDragon
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Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #1

Post by DanieltheDragon »

I have read the bible up and down left and right. There are lots of things about abominations etc etc. What it doesn't say though is whether or not non-believers can have gay marriage. In fact the laws and commandments in the bible are specifically for the Jews. Jesus opened that up and through Paul's doctrine that became inclusive of the gentiles(those who were believers).


So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Can anyone find a verse saying that non-believers cannot have gay marriage?

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #81

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 75 by DanieltheDragon]
I merely said conceptions of order or design are projections of our pattern making brains.
LOL! So, I just am projecting that when sperm meets egg, new life is formed? I’m just projecting that when we eat food that food is digested and converted into energy and that human beings eat with their mouths not their ears. How silly of me to acknowledge such patterns and design!

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #82

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 76 by DanieltheDragon]
Sure vaccination. I view it as immoral to not vaccinate yourself or your children as you increase the risk of becoming a disease vector and harming other people. Other people specifically anti vaxxers believe that it is a violation of their freedom to make them take vaccinations.
Do you not believe truth exists and can be discovered? If you do, then you would recognize moral truth. This isn’t to say some questions are complex, but there exist clear right and wrong. The very point that your vaccination question presupposes the value of life and not wanting to harm others indicates there exists good/bad/right/wrong and something that can be recognized.

** we can have the vaccination debate another time.

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #83

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 77 by Bust Nak]










quote]RightReason wrote:


Of course I’ve considered that, but the logic based on what we can know makes it clear. The order/design/form/shape/function that we observe in this world tells us what is right/good – what makes sense. That which is contrary to this natural order is disordered or wrong.

But not necessarily immoral.
But there is an intellectually dishonesty to your comment. What I describe IS in fact how man since the beginning of time has determined what is right and good vs. wrong and bad. We learn the way the world works what makes sense and what therefore is in man’s best interest – IOW – morality.

Quote:
Tomata – tomato. It doesn’t take a genius to know that the act of eating and then vomiting up food is not the proper order. Atypical? Yes. And wrong. Is declaring it wrong making a judgment? Sure, but a reasoned and scientific one... No one is calling a bulimic evil, but it would be dishonest to support or encourage their improper/atypical behavior.

That's the point: no one is calling a bulimic evil, but when it comes to homosexuality, it is being called evil, and it is this inconsistency that makes the reasoning illogical.
Where? The behavior is evil(wrong/bad) just like the behavior of bulimia. It is homosexual acts that are condemned. The person suffering from a same sex attraction, like the bulimic is not an evil person, but their behavior is messed up.

[Quote:
Nope. Even pagans – the Greeks and the Romans did not recognize homosexual unions to be something acknowledged by the state.

a) Homosexual unions not recognised by the state is a decidedly weaker claim than homosexual acts being declared immoral. Are you abandoning your original claim?
No idea what you are talking about here. No culture or society has ever sanctioned homosexual acts, until very recently.
b) While marriage was restricted between man and women in ancient Greece, the Romans had exceptions, most notably, the emperor Nero married a man. Besides, same sex marriage, i.e. not just homosexual acts, was practiced in ancient Egypt and China. And that's just the ones I know, maybe there are others.
Again, not sanctioned/celebrated/or supported. Typically it consisted in subcultures or in situations that turned a blind eye because all recognized the perversion/disorder of the behavior.

Quote:
Whether something is being used for its intended purpose or correctly or properly is in fact part of how we determine what is right/good vs. wrong/bad. Again, we can know bulimia is wrong/bad because the behavior is not ordered based on what we know about how the body works/functions.

But that moot since you've already conceded that bulimia is not immoral.
I’m afraid that was your conclusion – not mine.

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #84

Post by DanieltheDragon »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 75 by DanieltheDragon]
I merely said conceptions of order or design are projections of our pattern making brains.
LOL! So, I just am projecting that when sperm meets egg, new life is formed? I’m just projecting that when we eat food that food is digested and converted into energy and that human beings eat with their mouths not their ears. How silly of me to acknowledge such patterns and design!
Yes it is as you put it "silly" to claim we are designed. The digestion of food and sexual reproduction are merely adaptions that have been acquired through random genetic mutation and natural selection. No design necessary. When water takes the shape of the cup it is put in we don't say water is designed like a cup.
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #85

Post by Bust Nak »

RightReason wrote: But there is an intellectually dishonesty to your comment. What I describe IS in fact how man since the beginning of time has determined what is right and good vs. wrong and bad. We learn the way the world works what makes sense and what therefore is in man’s best interest – IOW – morality.
You seem to be thinking facts are always necessarily truth. That simply isn't the case. There is nothing dishonest there, most facts are not necessarily true.
Where? The behavior is evil(wrong/bad) just like the behavior of bulimia.
But you just you weren't calling bulimia evil last post, now you are saying it is evil? What's with this apparent flip flop?
It is homosexual acts that are condemned. The person suffering from a same sex attraction, like the bulimic is not an evil person, but their behavior is messed up.
What exactly is the difference between condemning someone and calling him evil?
No idea what you are talking about here. No culture or society has ever sanctioned homosexual acts, until very recently...

Again, not sanctioned/celebrated/or supported. Typically it consisted in subcultures or in situations that turned a blind eye because all recognized the perversion/disorder of the behavior.
Because it's not a big deal to those people, you said homosexual acts being declared immoral by all culture until recently, you were wrong. Besides, practicing same sex marriage counts as sanctioning, celebrating and supporting in my book.
I’m afraid that was your conclusion – not mine.
You did say it, and I quote "no one is calling a bulimic evil." You need to explain yourself.
Last edited by Bust Nak on Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #86

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 81 by RightReason]
RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 76 by DanieltheDragon]
Sure vaccination. I view it as immoral to not vaccinate yourself or your children as you increase the risk of becoming a disease vector and harming other people. Other people specifically anti vaxxers believe that it is a violation of their freedom to make them take vaccinations.
Do you not believe truth exists and can be discovered? If you do, then you would recognize moral truth. This isn’t to say some questions are complex, but there exist clear right and wrong. The very point that your vaccination question presupposes the value of life and not wanting to harm others indicates there exists good/bad/right/wrong and something that can be recognized.

** we can have the vaccination debate another time.

Whether good and bad can be recognized doesn't mean it is universally good or bad just that from my perspective it is good or bad. Morality is a product of our biology. If a meteor crashed into the earth and killed all life we wouldn't say the meteor was acting immoral. Likewise, when a spider kills a fly we don't say it is immoral of the spider to do so.

Clear right and wrong from your point of view. You brought up the morality of lying earlier in a black and white sense. Yet there exists times when it is considered proper and good to lie. Morality is more fluid and dynamic than you are purporting.
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #87

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 78 by RightReason]
The studies show the importance of having two sexes raise a child. Again, this is yet one more demonstration from nature pointing to the wrongness of same sex unions
For you to make this argument with regard to the morality of same sex unions and child care is not the same as saying girls have their periods earlier or later. Noticing biological differences in parenting is not the same as moral or immoral. When you look at the ethics of something we must look at the results of it. The result of having same sex parents shows no difference between opposite sex parents. Hence it is not immoral.
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #88

Post by DanieltheDragon »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 74 by DanieltheDragon]
The argument isn't more hetero people have anal sex than gay people therefore it's good. The argument is more hetero people have anal sex than gay people therefore anal sex is a misleading argument to use for the immorality of gay people as many gay people do not have anal sex.
<sigh> the immorality of anal sex is the same whether gay or straight people engage in the behavior. And it is your statistics that are misleading. There are more heterosexuals in the world, so your statistics are meaningless. The science shows over 90% of gay men engage in anal sex. This means the if you are a gay man in a relationship it would be a safe bet to suggest you are engaging in anal sex. If you can find me a study showing over 90% of heterosexual couples engage in anal sex, I would be interested in seeing that.

Not misleading at all try finishing my post again.

DtD:
If 44% of men claim to have had anal sex with an opposite sex partner and only 5.8% of males have had same sex encounters it stands to reason there are a lot more men having anal sex with women than other men. Additionally 12.8% of women report on having same sex encounters. Hypothetically if we have 100 women and 100 men our gay population would be about 12 women and 5 men. Let's say all the gay men have anal sex and none of the women that would be a rate of about 29% of the gay population has anal sex.
The LGBT community is more than just men in fact the LGBT community HAS A LOT MORE women than men. Which is why anal intercourse is an incomplete and failed point from the onset.
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Post #89

Post by Elijah John »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 75 by DanieltheDragon]
I merely said conceptions of order or design are projections of our pattern making brains.
LOL! So, I just am projecting that when sperm meets egg, new life is formed? I’m just projecting that when we eat food that food is digested and converted into energy and that human beings eat with their mouths not their ears. How silly of me to acknowledge such patterns and design!
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

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Post by marco »

RightReason wrote:
So, I just am projecting that when sperm meets egg, new life is formed? I’m just projecting that when we eat food that food is digested and converted into energy and that human beings eat with their mouths not their ears. How silly of me to acknowledge such patterns and design!

We see hexagonal pillars perfectly formed and deduce a giant made them. That's because we want a DESIGNER for the "design". Why does a mayfly, mouthless, live for a very short time? God took away its mouth of course! Patterns can arise out of frost falling on a window pane. Chaos needed just a starting point for order to beget more order, then an almost infinite amount of time to fool people into thinking the order was made by God.

We have no idea of how but we are slowly understanding that matter is far more complex than we first thought, We do not do science a service when we think there's a big invisible giant who sat in his workshop thinking out the chaos that exists as well as the nice elliptical orbits. In fact there is a certain arrogance in looking around and inventing a god as the explanation, our little explanation, just because our minds are unequal to the task of explaining.... as yet. Fortunately, many clever people have tried for less simplistic answers and we are the happy recipients of their labours.

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