Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

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DanieltheDragon
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Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #1

Post by DanieltheDragon »

I have read the bible up and down left and right. There are lots of things about abominations etc etc. What it doesn't say though is whether or not non-believers can have gay marriage. In fact the laws and commandments in the bible are specifically for the Jews. Jesus opened that up and through Paul's doctrine that became inclusive of the gentiles(those who were believers).


So question for debate does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?


Can anyone find a verse saying that non-believers cannot have gay marriage?

shnarkle
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #101

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to RightReason]
All men can know rape is wrong/immoral.
Not Christ. He was a man, and he never knew. There are some tribes that no nothing of rape. They don't even have a word for it.


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The bible simply displays options that result in things like blessings or curses. This is pervasive throughout the bible.


Perhaps you are a bit confused. Something isn’t right or wrong/good or bad simply because the Bible says it’s right/wrong.[/quote]

I wasn't suggesting it was.

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same sex acts don't necessarily need to be conflated with same sex marriage.


There is absolutely no evidence to conclude same sex marriage is condoned in the Bible. To do so would be reading what is not there. [/quote]

I'm not suggesting that God condones sam sex marriage. I'm suggesting that God doesn't care when it is with regards to those who are outside the law.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
It doesn't say that whatever the law says it is written to those who are outside the law. The fact that 'the truth is the truth' is irrelevant. If God wrote his laws for everyone Paul wouldn't have blundered into that sentence saying it was just for those under the law. Paul is quite clear on the difference between being under the law and being outside the law.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. Romans 2:12
There's no point in making this distinction if God cares about everyone. God is not a respecter of persons means that he doesn't play favorites. He's just, and those who are outside the law are screwed without a thought.


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Nonbelievers are always free to do as they please. They are also free to be wrong.


Not really. There is nothing a nonbeliever can do to be saved or be right in God's eyes.


Huh? Jesus Christ dined with non believers.[/quote]

Dining with non believers doesn't save them. Ask Judas Iscariot.
Scripture is full of examples of Christ speaking with and giving dignity to those who were not His followers.
Speaking with and giving dignity doesn't save anyone either.


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They are not free to be right or wrong. Their standards of right and wrong are irrelevant to God.

God created the world with its natural laws, which determine right/wrong.
Laws don't determine what is right or wrong. Is something right or wrong because the law says so, or does the law say it's right or wrong because it's right or wrong?
A non believer can do that which is good and right and a believer can do that which is wrong/bad. Scripture tells us good can be found outside of Christ’s followers. “Those who are not against us . . . “
I'm not claiming that non believers can't do good works. Barring Christ, there is no better example of piety and righteousness than the Pharisees who Christ points out are "of your father the devil". They're the spawn of Satan and yet Christ himeself points out that if your righteousness does not exceed theirs you're gonna burn.

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Paul goes into great detail in his letter to the Romans on why nonbelievers are effectively incapable of making a bad decision because they're all ultimately bad decisions.

one can find good outside of the Church and we ought to always encourage and acknowledge when we see good.
Sure, but that's not gonna save them.


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free will isn't the deciding factor in God's plans, e.g. "not by will or effort, but by God Who shows mercy...etc."

God does not change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat according to the desire or will of wolves and tares.


Of course He does BECAUSE He is merciful.[/quote]


Not on those who "He hardens". Not on those he has power over to make unto dishonor Romans 9:21

Not on those who he is "willing to show his wrath and make his power known the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" vs. 22 Moreover it is God's will that matters, and unless you think you can thwart God's will...
The spirit breathes where HE WILLS, and you hear the sound of his voice, but can't tell where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit.
Notice that the text doesn't suggest that it is according to your will? You can't summon the Spirit like a demon.


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"24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men...etc."



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Yes, this passage confirms God’s disapproval of same sex unions with words like dishonor and unnatural.


You're reading that into the text.


What are you talking about? Those words are in the text. [/quote]

Not "disapproval". They are outside God's law. To be outside God's law is not to be under God's law. It has nothing to do with approval or disapproval. God simply doesn't care. Right or wrong, makes no difference to God, their gonna fry.

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This presupposes that they are his to begin with.


Yes it does. Because His desire is that we all be His children.
This presupposes that his desire is enough to presuppose we are all his to begin with. It isn't. Moreover, when he says, "I never knew you", most people would believe never means never.

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I can see how you came to your conclusions with the words "gave them up", however in the broader scheme of things we already know that they were never God's to begin with.

“For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.� –Romans 11:36
From him indicates he is the origin and author. Through him means that they are created by him, and for him indicates that all his creation glorifies God regardless of whether they be vessels fitted for destruction or mercy.
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.� -2 Peter 3:9
Great! So we can all sit back and do whatever we want to as God's desire and wishes alone are enough to get us to where we should be, right? If that's the case then it matters not one iota what anyone does because we're all destined for heavenly glory. If that's not the case then his wishes aren't enough, and those he has power over to lump into a vessel fitted to destruction are going to be destroyed mercifully.
“But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.� –Romans 5:8
While they were still sinners. Paul is writing to the church, right? He's not writing to the synagogue of Satan. "We" means the church.



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The bible doesn't outlaw murder for nonbelievers. God's laws aren't directed at nonbelievers in the first place. Their adherence to the law is of no concern to God.

We can know right from wrong based on the world we live in.
Where I live abortion is considered not only legitimate, but a moral good. Women go out and protest those who disagree with them with signs which read: "I love abortions" This is the world we live in. So is what is right because it's right, or because of what the world we live in says is right?
something isn’t wrong because the Bible says it is wrong.
And the bible is God's word. God's word is God's will. Is God synonymous with his will or not? In other words does God go against his will or with it?
Rather the Bible says it is wrong because the Bible cannot contradict the natural laws that govern us.
So the natural laws of the whole of creation are superior to the God who created them? Go ahead and elaborate on that one cause we're not buying it.

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The worst thing one can do is to disbelieve God

Actually, the worst thing a person can do is to continue to disbelieve in God. And a bad thing to also do is to disbelieve in God’s love and mercy – a mercy that is big enough to melt away disbelief.
Actually I think you have a point here. The worst thing one can do is to conflate the ability of God with his will. Could God create automatons? Perhaps, but the fact is that God must create evil for their to be free will in the first place. You can't choose evil or damnation if that option doesn't exist in the first place. He didn't create it knowing no one would choose it. He didn't create it to prove he had the ability to keep you out of it. He created it to send those he created for the express purpose of destroying them.

RightReason
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #102

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to shnarkle]

Dining with non believers doesn't save them. Ask Judas Iscariot.
I fully recognize the reasoning in assuming Judas was not saved, but quite frankly even that is an assumption. Even the Church has never made a definitive statement about who specifically may be in hell, because one – they simply don’t know and two it ignores the saving power of God’s grace. Who’s to say that someone at the very last second of their life, in God’s mercy, is showered with enough grace from Him that they repent and believe.

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God created the world with its natural laws, which determine right/wrong.


Laws don't determine what is right or wrong. Is something right or wrong because the law says so, or does the law say it's right or wrong because it's right or wrong?
I think you do not understand what is meant by Natural Law. Natural Law does not refer to the laws that exist by the state. Natural Law refers to the laws that apply to all men based on the design/order/facts of this world we live in and man’s relationship to this world we live in. It is something all men can know. It has nothing to do with what the particular laws of some government or country are.


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A non believer can do that which is good and right and a believer can do that which is wrong/bad. Scripture tells us good can be found outside of Christ’s followers. “Those who are not against us . . . “

Of course He does BECAUSE He is merciful.



Not on those who "He hardens".[/quote]

God doesn’t harden them – they harden themselves. Many misunderstand the passages regarding God “hardening hearts� . . .

****************

Generally speaking, most of these declarations that God “hardens the heart� come after a significant period of disobedience on the part of those whose hearts were hardened. In a way, God “cements the deal� and gives them what they really want. For seeing that they have hardened their own hearts to God, He determines that their disposition is to be a permanent one, and in a sovereign exercise of His will (for nothing can happen without God’s allowance), declares and permits their hearts to be hardened in a definitive kind of way.



St John Chrysostom said, That the saying of Isaiah might be fulfilled: that here is expressive not of the cause, but of the event. They did not disbelieve because Isaiah said they would; but because they would disbelieve, Isaiah said they would … For He does not leave us, except we wish Him


Hence, as a just judgment, God hands them over to sexual confusion (homosexuality) and countless other destructive drives. So here, too, though it is said that God hands them over, it is really not that simple. Again, God has “cemented the deal.� They do not want to serve Him and so God, knowing their definitive decision, gives them what they want.

Thus our first point in understanding the “hardening texts� is that the context of connivance is important in assessing them. Scripture does not assert that God takes a reasonably righteous man and, out of the blue, hardens his heart, confuses his mind, or causes him (against his will) to become obstinate. The texts are usually presented as a kind of prevenient judgment by God, such that the state of the person’s hardness becomes permanent. God “cements the deal� and “causes� the person to walk in his own sinful ways since he has insisted on doing so.
http://blog.adw.org/2016/06/mean-script ... an-hearts/



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“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.� -2 Peter 3:9
Great! So we can all sit back and do whatever we want to as God's desire and wishes alone are enough to get us to where we should be, right?
Not what I’m saying at all. You have created a straw man.
The bible doesn't outlaw murder for nonbelievers. God's laws aren't directed at nonbelievers in the first place. Their adherence to the law is of no concern to God.
Again, you aren’t getting it. The Bible isn’t a list of “laws� for believers. The Bible has no choice but to proclaim the natural laws of the world created by God – laws that apply to all men, whether they realize it or not. And God is concerned about all of us, which is why He reaches out to sinners, non believers, the possessed, etc.
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Rather the Bible says it is wrong because the Bible cannot contradict the natural laws that govern us.


So the natural laws of the whole of creation are superior to the God who created them? Go ahead and elaborate on that one cause we're not buying it.
You aren’t buying it because you do not understand what is meant by natural law. To not accept and acknowledge natural law is to not accept and acknowledge God, the creator of the world. One isn’t superior or inferior to the other – they are Truth. Truth is truth – it has no ranking. It just IS.

shnarkle
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #103

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 101 by RightReason]




RightReason wrote: [Replying to shnarkle]

Dining with non believers doesn't save them. Ask Judas Iscariot.
I fully recognize the reasoning in assuming Judas was not saved,
I don't think you do.
but quite frankly even that is an assumption.
What you recognize hasn't been articulated by me so it would have to be an assumption.
Even the Church has never made a definitive statement about who specifically may be in hell,
This issue isn't who specifically is in hell, but the fact that there will be people in hell, and that they will be there according to God's will and plan of salvation.
because one – they simply don’t know and two it ignores the saving power of God’s grace.
Not at all. This isn't about God's ability. No one is disputing the omnipotence of God here; with or without his grace. The point is that God already knows the impact his grace is going to have on those he calls to conformity with his son and those he has "foreordained"; or "fitted" to destruction. It makes no sense to say that God foreordained some, but left the exact number up to chance, or that the rest aren't foreordained as that doesn't change the outcome. The point here isn't to negate free will, but to point out (as Paul so articulately did) that free will has nothing to do with the equation, e.g. "not by will or effort"
Who’s to say that someone at the very last second of their life, in God’s mercy, is showered with enough grace from Him that they repent and believe.


When one comes to salvation is also beside the point, but I'll entertain the question by answering it with Christ himself. He says: "Better that man were never born". Really? Why would that be? If Judas either pre-existed in heaven or died prior to birth, but now that he's born and betrayed the Lord of creation, he will now enter into his eternal reward at a lower seat at God's banquet than before, then to say that it would have been better that he was never born is to simply say that his eternal reward won't be as great. So what? That's not exactly something a gospel writer would have jotted down had they been operating under your assumptions.

Jesus isn't saying that he (i.e. Christ) is incapable of forgiving Judas here either. He isn't saying that Gods' grace can't save him. He's saying that God's grace will not save him. That soul willingly recieved Satan into his heart, and blashphemed the power and will of the Holy Spirit.

People tend to think that Judas was this guy who wanted to betray Jesus because he didn't believe what Jesus was saying. This is nonsense. Judas didn't understand God's plan of salvation, and in his ignorance decided to do it his way, rather than The Way. He wasn't supposed to "get it". He either knew Jesus was the messiah and was playing his part in the drama which to his way of thinking would have moved things along to a point where Jesus was crowned as king of Israel and the kingdom of messiah would have come into its own, or fell into disbelief because Jesus wasn't overthrowing the natural order for the advent of the kingdom. Either way he was wrong.

Either way, Jesus wasn't proclaiming the Natural order, or Natural Law as he plainly pointed out that if his kingdom were of the natural order, things would have turned out considerably different with an immense army there to defend and fight. That's not what Jesus is all about. That's not what the kingdom is all about.

It is the rich young ruler who walks away, not the disciple. Jesus loves everyone, but that doesn't mean that he's going to proclaim Natural Law, or go running after the rich dissapointed ruler and speak plainly to him so that he "gets it", and is saved. If he was supposed to get it, he'd get it.
I think you do not understand what is meant by Natural Law.
I understand perfectly what is meant by Natural Law.
Natural Law does not refer to the laws that exist by the state.
I never suggested they did[/quote]
Natural Law refers to the laws that apply to all men based on the design/order/facts of this world we live in and man’s relationship to this world we live in.
Got it. My point still stands as you are making a distinction with no effective difference. You are still basing it upon the created world, rather than the Creator. You are basing it upon the system of classification rather than on the one whe created the system. It is not the standard that determines, but One Who created the standard, and the pinacle of the created order is nowhere close to the pinacle of the Spiritual order which also doesn't determine right or wrong. It is not the law that judges. The law is an aid. It gives context, a framework, but it is not to be proclaimed.

God doesn’t harden them – they harden themselves.
Beside the point. The point remains that God will not interfere as that would go against his nature. He doesn't want automatons, nor is he looking for volunteers. Should you find this perplexing, one need only consult Paul's letter to the Romans to get a basic grasp of his doctrine of "election". This is God's election. We don't choose him, he chooses us. Again, don't misunderstand this fundamental tenet of God's system of justic. He is in no way impinging on our free will. Free will can have nothing to do with salvation as it would make Christ's sacrifice redundant. If I could choose to follow Natural Law or ANY law as a means to salvation, Christ's life would be pointless.
They do not want to serve Him and so God, knowing their definitive decision, gives them what they want.
Yep. He gives them exactly what they want. He doesn't sit up all night like some distraught mother of her teenage offspring pacing the floors wondering if they're going to come home or not; or come to salvation or not.
Scripture does not assert that God takes a reasonably righteous man and, out of the blue, hardens his heart, confuses his mind, or causes him (against his will) to become obstinate.
Right. The main reason being that no one is righteous to begin with. No one is even reasonably righteous. In a world of opposites, only God can be good, righteous, just, etc. The deal is already cemented when we're born in that not one single person in this whole world has the ability to save themselves. Not one person has the ability to even grasp the gospel or repent. If this were the case, there would be no point in Christ's life and sacrifice in the first place. Christ doesn't come to save the "reasonably righteous" either. He came to save the lost.
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“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.� -2 Peter 3:9
Great! So we can all sit back and do whatever we want to as God's desire and wishes alone are enough to get us to where we should be, right?
Not what I’m saying at all. You have created a straw man. [/quote]

No, I'm not. In regards to THIS discussion, you are assuming that God's patience and grace will result in "all" reaching repentance. If not, then you are assuming that God's grace is insufficient for "all" reaching repentance. It can't be insufficient. It can't be about God's power or grace. It can only be about God's will, and no one can thwart God's will. It doesn't matter what course one takes throughout their lives, if God wills that they be saved, they will be saved. Not one will be lost. This can't be about our ability either because Christ's sacrifice pays for those who are his. The good shepherd doesn't find the lost sheep and then ask them if they'd like to return to the sheepfold. He picks them up and takes them back for one and only one reason. They're HIS SHEEP, and he literally loves those sheep more than his own life, and he loves his father for giving them to him. There can be no amount of will or effort that can change wolves into sheep or tares into wheat. The good sheperd searches for his lost sheep, not his lost wolves. All wolves are lost and all wolves want nothing to do with the shepherd, and everything to do with the sheep.
The bible doesn't outlaw murder for nonbelievers. God's laws aren't directed at nonbelievers in the first place. Their adherence to the law is of no concern to God.
Again, you aren’t getting it. The Bible isn’t a list of “laws� for believers.[/quote]

I didn't say it was. The law is effectively irrelevant to those who are in Christ as one doesn't need the law when one isn't sinning or transgressing the law in the first place. The law doesn't keep them in line anymore because they have the love of Christ keeping them sinless. Those who are outside the law are irrelevant as they are destroyed outside the law, and those who are under the law are judged by the law. There is a big difference between being under the law and outside the law, but neither one comes anywhere near those who are in Christ. The proclamation of the bible is to proclaim Christ, not the law; not any law. Faith may establish the law, but it is the faith of Christ that is proclaimed, not the law.
The Bible has no choice but to proclaim the natural laws of the world created by God
Sorry, but the bible clearly articulates that we are not to place anything before God. There is no commission to proclaim natural law to the world. We do not fight against Natural Law, we fight against those spiritual powers in high places. This world is passing away, that's what you need to proclaim about natural law.
He reaches out to sinners, non believers, the possessed, etc.
True, and he does that through the crucifixion. He doesn't then jump down and give us the hard sell to bring us to salvation. The cross of Christ is all there really is. Some aren't supposed to "get it".
Quote:
Rather the Bible says it is wrong because the Bible cannot contradict the natural laws that govern us.
You're putting the cart before the horse. God doesn't create rocks too large for him to lift. This isn't a discussion on harmonizing the bible and natural law.
you do not understand what is meant by natural law. To not accept and acknowledge natural law is to not accept and acknowledge God, the creator of the world.
Non sequitur/False equivalence. We aren't denying Natural Law. I'm pointing out that you have no argument when you claim that the creation is to be proclaimed over the God Who created it.
One isn’t superior or inferior to the other – they are Truth.
You don't seem to understand that the bible makes it quite clear that there is the God of creation and there is everything that is created and never the twain shall meet under an umbrella of equality. There is none beside God. The Natural Law does not stand beside God. That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spirit is spirit. And without the spirit you've got nothing.
Truth is truth – it has no ranking. It just IS.
Sure, but the truth is the way and the way is life and the life is of the spirit, not the natural law. The natural law will fade away, but the spirit is eternal. The natural law has boundaries that are not to be crossed, but that doesn't mean that they can't be crossed and when they do that soul will die because that soul never had life within them in the first place. God's purposes are manifold and there is no way the natural order will change to suit your tenets of salvation. You cannot violate the natural order in order to save anyone. More importantly, Natural Law can't save anyone either.

God's criteria of election isn't based upon our adherance or lack of adherance to Natural Law, or any law. It can't be based upon anything we do, as that would negate the promises of God. God doesn't promise to save everyone, therefore it makes no difference what anyone does until God saves them. He couldn't care less what anyone does until they're his found possession.

Barring salvation, I have no problem observing, maintaining, and upholding Natural Law, the Mosaic law, etc. This is the natural order and it should be upheld. However, for those who want to engage in their unique idea of a marriage, regardless of whether they will eventually be found of God or not; I won't be giving it any more of a thought than God does. For all practical intents and purposes I approve and condone through what I can only call a divine and superior indifference.

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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #104

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 102 by shnarkle]

Sorry, I still think you aren’t getting it. And you get the majority of my comments completely wrong. I never said anything even close to the fact that as long as man follows natural law he can be saved. A person could “do the right thing� his entire life and not be saved because he doesn’t believe. You entirely miss my point. I was merely stating all men can know right from wrong regardless of belief in God. This does not mean as long as they live right they are saved. The one does not necessarily mean the other. So pertaining to this thread, all men via natural law can know the wrongness of same sex relations and same sex unions are just as wrong for non believers as they are for believers because they are not only a violation of God’s law (of course the non believer does not really care about that), but precisely because they are a violation of natural law – which no man is exempt from. So, again my point was gay marriage is wrong for any human being because it is contrary to how human beings were designed. It’s like someone thinking if they wanted to hear with their eyes instead of their ears they could choose to do so. Even non believers can’t defy nature – they can try, but the natural consequences will be their punishment – not the wrath of God.

You also make an awful lot of assumptions like claiming God does not pace the floor worrying about us like an anxious mother and yet your assumption ignores what we know. Scripture reveals that God can grieve and does grieve. And you act like just because God knows who in the end will or will not follow Him means He has already predetermined whether they are to be saved. Just because He knows doesn’t mean He made it that way. Quite frankly I’m a little surprised you can’t understand that difference. He might have known Judas would betray Him, but it doesn’t mean He made Judas betray Him.

shnarkle
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Re: Does the bible outlaw gay marriage for non-believers?

Post #105

Post by shnarkle »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 102 by shnarkle]

Sorry, I still think you aren’t getting it. And you get the majority of my comments completely wrong. I never said anything even close to the fact that as long as man follows natural law he can be saved. A person could “do the right thing� his entire life and not be saved because he doesn’t believe. You entirely miss my point. I was merely stating all men can know right from wrong regardless of belief in God. This does not mean as long as they live right they are saved. The one does not necessarily mean the other. So pertaining to this thread, all men via natural law can know the wrongness of same sex relations and same sex unions are just as wrong for non believers as they are for believers because they are not only a violation of God’s law (of course the non believer does not really care about that), but precisely because they are a violation of natural law – which no man is exempt from. So, again my point was gay marriage is wrong for any human being because it is contrary to how human beings were designed. It’s like someone thinking if they wanted to hear with their eyes instead of their ears they could choose to do so. Even non believers can’t defy nature – they can try, but the natural consequences will be their punishment – not the wrath of God.
Good points. I can't really find anything in this post to disagree with. This seems more clear to me than your other posts. Nonetheless, believers should still take a lesson from God, and give up on those God has given up on. Paul also points out that if one is going to preach the gospel, it doesn't really matter what the sin is because we're all sinners so the focus needs to be on the gospel rather than on some particular sin; sin is sin. He also points out that those who followed the law weren't found to be righteous, but those who didn't follow the law attained righteousness through faith. It is faith which leads the sinner to repent, not an indictment of their sinful behavior.
You also make an awful lot of assumptions like claiming God does not pace the floor worrying about us like an anxious mother and yet your assumption ignores what we know. Scripture reveals that God can grieve and does grieve.
It's figurative speech, e.g. Anthropomorphism, personification, Anthropopatea.
And you act like just because God knows who in the end will or will not follow Him means He has already predetermined whether they are to be saved.
Not quite. Paul's argument points out that God's foreknowledge requires predestination only insofar as it preserves God's foreknowledge. It isn't predestined by God, it's just necessary that it be predestined in order for God's foreknowledge to be accurate. God can't foreknow what isn't predestined.
He might have known Judas would betray Him, but it doesn’t mean He made Judas betray Him.
I agree, not sure why my posts led you to believe otherwise. However, I also know that even though Judas has his free will in tact, free will has nothing to do with salvation. Paul makes this point in Romans chapter 9, e.g. "not by will or effort". It isn't that God has removed anyone's ability to make free will decisions, but that election doesn't have anything to do with our free will. It isn't we who are doing the electing, God does the electing. That's what Paul's doctrine of election is all about.

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Post #106

Post by Atef »

Many non-believers consider the Bible to be mythological, written by anonymous men--and not the inspired word (or actual word) of any Christian Creator God. I imagine any non-believer who is involved in a same-sex marriage is dismissive and disdainful of what the Bible says about same-sex marriage.

The scriptures of the Bible consider same-sex couples (who have sex)--as sinner's. So one can reason, since the vast majority of people in a same-sex marriage have sex, they are sinner's, believer or non-believer.

Note: The majority of books in the Old Testament of Christianity are the same as the religious book of Judaism, called the Tanakh. However, depending on the Christian sect, some books have been added, changed or deleted, so not "All" Christian Bibles have the exact same books.

Leviticus contains a number of laws pertaining specifically to the Children of Israel. However Christianity considers the Old Testament (which is the Tanakh of Judaism), as part of it's Christian Bible (Old and New Testaments).

There are numerous scriptures in the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism that are considered by many to be anti-same-sex marriage. The Christian's I know view same-sex marriage and LGBTQ sexual orientation as a sin because of Leviticus 20:13--as well as Leviticus 18-22. Christian's I know, also consider I Corinthians 6:9 and Romans 1:26-27 as main reasons why they consider same-sex marriage to be a sin believer or non-believer.
Leviticus 20:13

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

I Corinthians 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Romans 1:26:27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

shnarkle
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Post #107

Post by shnarkle »

Atef wrote: Many non-believers consider the Bible to be mythological,
The problem with this perspective is that most view mythologies as of no value when the fact is that they contain immense explanatory power. On some level, mythologies are no different than theories. They provide a framework in which to move out into the unknown and make sense of it.
written by anonymous men--and not the inspired word (or actual word) of any Christian Creator God.
There is probably no such thing as a Christian Creator God. The term Christian was coined by the heathen in Antioch, and was originally a term of derision. The Christian scriptures do not equate God with creation. The created world came about through Christ, and Christ is distinguished from God by Paul and John. While this in no way conforms to the pagan view of the gods, their perspectives aren't relevant to Paul or John, and perhaps none of the New Testament writers.
I imagine any non-believer who is involved in a same-sex marriage is dismissive and disdainful of what the Bible says about same-sex marriage.
I'm sure that's the case, but I would also point out that all believers are just as dismissive and disdainful of what the bible says about those things that they don't view as sinful as well. Almost all of Christendom categorically rejects God's condemnation of eating polluted animals, usury, and couldn't care less about observing the Sabbath. This is precisely why Paul points out that it is the gospel message that needs to be preached, rather than pointing out the sin of those who the church is supposed to be preaching to.

To point out one's sin is to point out the context in which the gospel is presented, but the gospel must be presented immediately or there is no point in even suggesting the context. The reaction will be the same every time. If you don't observe the Sabbath you will find some passage of the text to support your belief. There are plenty of professing Christians who will do the same thing with same sex marriage. Those who aren't believers will simply defend their position without the biblical texts.
The scriptures of the Bible consider same-sex couples (who have sex)--as sinner's. So one can reason, since the vast majority of people in a same-sex marriage have sex, they are sinner's, believer or non-believer.
Sure, and since the majority of heterosexual couples who are believers are adulterers according to Jesus, they aren't just sinners, but damned as adulterers don't go to heaven, at least that's what Paul says.
I Corinthians 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Leviticus contains a number of laws pertaining specifically to the Children of Israel. However Christianity considers the Old Testament (which is the Tanakh of Judaism), as part of it's Christian Bible (Old and New Testaments).
They're all dealing specifically with the children of Israel. The gospel narratives are also dealing exclusively with the children of Israel, and Israel alone. Jesus came to call Israel to repentance, and explicitly referred to those outside as "dogs"(Mk. 7:27; Mt. 15:26).

The laws or oracles given to Israel were later offered to the gentile world because of the rejection of them by Israel. Paul points out that the gentile population are now invited to participate in that same covenant, but most Christians don't want that deal and rejected it much faster than Israel did. Paul points out that they too will be cut off for essentially the same reasons; e.g. disobedience.

Atef
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Post #108

Post by Atef »

Just to make sure we are on the same page.🙄
From the Google dictionary:
myth
noun

2.a widely held but false belief or idea.
"he wants to dispel the myth that sea kayaking is too risky or too strenuous

1.a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
synonyms: folk tale, folk story, legend, tale, story, fable, saga, mythos, lore, folklore, mythology "ancient Greek myths"

From: Diictionary.com
Myth:

3.any invented story, idea, or concept:
His account of the event is pure myth.

1.A traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

2.stories or matter of this kind:
realm of myth.
Probably?🤔

Christians I know consider God to be the Creator.
Christians I know consider Jesus to be the Son of God.

There are so so so...many things according to the Bible, that one can be sent to hell for. Adultery is a big one. Believers should be grateful for the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, because without "Substitutional Atonement"--everyone would spend eternity with the 😈 and his cohorts 👹👹👹.

Leviticus contains a number of laws that pertain specifically to the children of Israel--and yes, they're all dealing specifically with the children of Israel. I know it's a lot, but do you know how many actual laws in Leviticus specifically pertain to the children of Israel?--then we can assign a definitive number.

shnarkle
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Post #109

Post by shnarkle »

Atef wrote: Just to make sure we are on the same page.🙄
From the Google dictionary:
myth
noun

2.a widely held but false belief or idea.
"he wants to dispel the myth that sea kayaking is too risky or too strenuous

1.a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
synonyms: folk tale, folk story, legend, tale, story, fable, saga, mythos, lore, folklore, mythology "ancient Greek myths"

From: Diictionary.com
Myth:

3.any invented story, idea, or concept:
His account of the event is pure myth.

1.A traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

2.stories or matter of this kind:
realm of myth.
Probably?🤔
Probably what?
Christians I know consider God to be the Creator.
And they would be mistaken, Would you consider Paul, the writer of most of the New Testament to be a Christian? He didn't see it that way. He saw God as the origin of all that exists, but not the means by which everything came into existence. In other words, he didn't create anything.
Christians I know consider Jesus to be the Son of God.
Sure, but so what? Luke's genealogy points out that Adam was the Son of God as well. All of the angelic host of heaven including Lucifer, later known as Satan; are all referred to as "the sons of God". The new creature in Christ is also a son of God.
There are so so so...many things according to the Bible, that one can be sent to hell for. Adultery is a big one. Believers should be grateful for the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, because without "Substitutional Atonement"--everyone would spend eternity with the 😈 and his cohorts 👹👹👹.
Now there's a myth according to your first definition. This is pure nonsense and Paul condemns these silly ideas. First off the new creature in Christ doesn't "walk after the lusts of the flesh" anymore. Those who do do NOT have the luxury of having Christ's sacrifice cover their sins because once one has taken hold of the truth, Christ's sacrifice is of no use to them for intentional sin. Unless you think a new creature in Christ has no clue that adultery is sin, Christ sacrifice will not cover it. This is a fundamental distinction in the law which Christ came to fulfill. Christ didn't come to fulfil laws that don't exist.
Leviticus contains a number of laws that pertain specifically to the children of Israel--and yes, they're all dealing specifically with the children of Israel. I know it's a lot, but do you know how many actual laws in Leviticus specifically pertain to the children of Israel?--then we can assign a definitive number.
613. It's not a significant number in comparison to the laws that are passed in countries like the US each year. These laws are only for believers, and only believers will keep them. Those who disregard them aren't believers according to Paul. This would include most of mainstream Christianity. As Paul says, they've all gone away, none are righteous, no not one.

Atef
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Post #110

Post by Atef »

You have a unique and much different interpretation of the Bible-- from the many Christians I know. You used the word "probably" not me. I was just wondering why you used the word in advance of your statement.

You seem to reference Paul, in your claim that God did not create anything.

Well 🙄 let's see:

Genesis 1:

1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13. And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18.And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:

1. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Just curious 🤔 are you a Christian? If so what denomination?

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