Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment?

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DanieltheDragon
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Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment?

Post #1

Post by DanieltheDragon »

According to the the Presbyterian Church:


By a vote of 429-175, leaders of the 1.76 million-member Presbyterian Church (USA) voted during the biennial General Assembly in Detroit to change the denomination's Book of Order to describe marriage as being between "two people."


gay marriage bans violate the religious freedom of Presbyterians to perform same sex marriages.


Question for debate:

Is a ban against same sex marriages a violation of the religious freedoms of Presbyterians?

Freddy_Scissorhands
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #2

Post by Freddy_Scissorhands »

DanieltheDragon wrote: According to the the Presbyterian Church:


By a vote of 429-175, leaders of the 1.76 million-member Presbyterian Church (USA) voted during the biennial General Assembly in Detroit to change the denomination's Book of Order to describe marriage as being between "two people."


gay marriage bans violate the religious freedom of Presbyterians to perform same sex marriages.


Question for debate:

Is a ban against same sex marriages a violation of the religious freedoms of Presbyterians?
I don't think so. Religious freedom means that you have the right to hold to your believes and that the state can't enforce laws that would punish you for it or favorit a specific religion.
Of course, banning gay couples from getting married violates a number of other rights of them, so banning gay-marriage is something no state or country should ever do.
But what we also shouldn't do is forcing churches to marry gay couples if they don't want to (except if it is a state-sponsored or suported church. Then there are obligations it has to fallow). After all, if a church holds the believe that this is wrong, we should not compromise their personal believes.
But marriage is not a church-thing or a religion-thing. It's a social contract. That's why religion or religous freedoms shouldn't even be part of this discussion.

DanieltheDragon
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #3

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 2 by Freddy_Scissorhands]

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion



A ban on gay marriage impedes the religious act of marriage between LGBT Presbyterians.

99percentatheism
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #4

Post by 99percentatheism »

DanieltheDragon wrote: According to the the Presbyterian Church:


By a vote of 429-175, leaders of the 1.76 million-member Presbyterian Church (USA) voted during the biennial General Assembly in Detroit to change the denomination's Book of Order to describe marriage as being between "two people."


gay marriage bans violate the religious freedom of Presbyterians to perform same sex marriages.


Question for debate:

Is a ban against same sex marriages a violation of the religious freedoms of Presbyterians?
The USA is a secular nation. The Constitution are secular in creation. So you are saying that secularism should replace scripture.

Great tactic. The cunning are very impressive in manipulating pop culture and having that influence "The Church."

Kind of prophetic really.

Gotta give 'em notice for being crafty.

May God keep the minority that "contended for the faith" safe from harm. And I have no doubt that He does.

It is interesting to note that the 429 disagree with Jesus Christ.
'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

- Jesus
Unless of course these 429 want to alter the meaning of "wife," to now be defined as a man. And once again, if so, they are disagreeing with Jesus Christ. Again.

But they do have the First Amendment right to do so. But not scripture.

And of course the 175 are supported by Jesus Christ and the First Amendment. Which is their rights on both accounts.

But money, political power and social influence seems more important than contending for the faith . . .

Pharisees anyone? Forgotten history going 'round and 'round?
The church has long grappled with the issue, which came to a head at the last General Assembly, in 2012, when a similar resolution allowing for gay marriage lost 338-308. Since then, the church’s decades-long decline in membership — it has lost 37 percent of its membership since 1992 — has continued. These losses have been led by conservative-leaning congregations that defected over what they lamented as the church’s embrace of more liberal values.

Those defections — many to smaller and more conservative Presbyterian denominations — made it more likely that the General Assembly would approve a gay marriage resolution this year.

Some who voted in favor of the gay marriage resolution said they hoped it would draw people to the church.

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/06/19/ ... nt-1375122

Wordleymaster1
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #5

Post by Wordleymaster1 »

[Replying to post 4 by 99percentatheism]
So you are saying that secularism should replace scripture.
Sounds good to me.
Why should people who DON'T believe in the Godly word of the bible be forced to adhere to all its points ESPECIALLY when Christians don't themselves?
Better yet, why should nonbelievers be forced to accept a book of myths as factual and live according to it?

DanieltheDragon
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #6

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 4 by 99percentatheism]

Your ignoring the question. If you don't want to contribute to the discussion feel free not to.

This branch of christianity defines marriage between two people not man and woman. It is their religious belief that same sex couples can marry.

Same sex bans violate this religious principle.

So please read the OP again and contribute. The accuracy of their beliefs are irrelevant. They could be Hindu's and would still be a violation imho.

Freddy_Scissorhands
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #7

Post by Freddy_Scissorhands »

99percentatheism wrote:
But money, political power and social influence seems more important than contending for the faith . . .
You forgot "sense of fairness" and "empathy".
Because these are the two main drivers for the increasing support homosexual couples are gaining.
Because see: There is no good reason to not allow them to get married. And there are many good reasons to do so, not least the simple fact that they can celebrate their love for each other.

I understand that for you, your faith might trump your sense of fairness and empathy for other people, when your book tells you to be unfair and unempathetic, but fortunatelly, the rest of us starts to use better ways of assessing how we should treat each other.

DanieltheDragon
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #8

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 7 by Freddy_Scissorhands]

Also it seems he is ignoring free will and freedom of thought. I am certainly not going to tell 99% that his beliefs are invalid because we have a disagreement on the interpretation of scripture.

These people are free to believe whatever they want. There are over 33,000 sects of Christianity. Obviously not all christians agree on everything yet here we have someone demeaning another group of people because they simply don't agree with his interpretation.

Jashwell
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #9

Post by Jashwell »

[Replying to post 3 by DanieltheDragon]

A law banning gay marriage wouldn't necessarily respect an establishment of religion, i.e. it doesn't reference (it isn't with respect to) and wouldn't necessarily be made explicitly to deny the Presbyterian Church.

Otherwise we'd have to make exceptions for any kind of laws that one breaks out of religious motivation.

Though one wonders what reasonable non-religious motivation could suggest to prohibit gay marriage. There doesn't yet appear to be any.

DanieltheDragon
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Re: Is banning gay marriage a violation of the 1st amendment

Post #10

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 9 by Jashwell]

I think the problem here is not establishment but impediment. Gay marriage is a religious rite now according to a 1.7 million member branch. These laws impede on their ability to carry out that rite.

We allow animal sacrifices for that same reason.

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